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On January 02 2013 07:22 probeater wrote:
im having lots of trouble on antiga shipyard vs. zerg, especially if they are random and get zerg, because if i scout them last they already have a 7rr coming or something else. otherwise when they go muta (most of the time) it's hard for me to defend so many angles of attacking. im wondering if it's better to just veto this map, but the only other options are shakuras, TDA or condemned
You should be scouting with the probe that builds the 9pylon. Even if you scout them last on a 4player map, there's no way they should already have 7rr out. If you scout a roach warren early, then just cannon up your wall.
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On January 02 2013 07:22 probeater wrote:
im having lots of trouble on antiga shipyard vs. zerg, especially if they are random and get zerg, because if i scout them last they already have a 7rr coming or something else. otherwise when they go muta (most of the time) it's hard for me to defend so many angles of attacking. im wondering if it's better to just veto this map, but the only other options are shakuras, TDA or condemned
TDA and Shakuras rotate in about a day and a half. Just veto it when that happens. Antiga is an atrocious map without forced cross-spawns, and it's not really that much better with it....
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Hi,
I'm in Diamond right now and I am INSANELY bad at PvP. About 20-30% winrate, my PvZ and PvT on the other side are very strong.
So my question is: What timing pushes are currently strong in ladder? I'm very frustrated in PvP right now, so I cheese and rush like crazy and still lose quite a lot because my micro isn't very good. In PvZ and PvT I can focus on my strong macro play, at least. But in PvP it doesn't work... If I try to play macro, I lose and if I want to do something of 1 base, I always lose.
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On January 02 2013 11:44 Bahajinbo wrote:
Hi,
I'm in Diamond right now and I am INSANELY bad at PvP. About 20-30% winrate, my PvZ and PvT on the other side are very strong.
So my question is: What timing pushes are currently strong in ladder? I'm very frustrated in PvP right now, so I cheese and rush like crazy and still lose quite a lot because my micro isn't very good. In PvZ and PvT I can focus on my strong macro play, at least. But in PvP it doesn't work... If I try to play macro, I lose and if I want to do something of 1 base, I always lose.
6 Gate blink attacks off of 2 base is fairly strong, but you have to use blink micro. You could try to hit a colossus timing off of 3 bases, when your +3 attack finishes. This is very strong if you outmacro them (even just a little) or their +3 weapons does not finish in time. Other timing pushes can work right when you finish an attack upgrade, also with colossi.
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On January 02 2013 11:44 Bahajinbo wrote:
Hi,
I'm in Diamond right now and I am INSANELY bad at PvP. About 20-30% winrate, my PvZ and PvT on the other side are very strong.
So my question is: What timing pushes are currently strong in ladder? I'm very frustrated in PvP right now, so I cheese and rush like crazy and still lose quite a lot because my micro isn't very good. In PvZ and PvT I can focus on my strong macro play, at least. But in PvP it doesn't work... If I try to play macro, I lose and if I want to do something of 1 base, I always lose.
most timing pushes in PvP usually rely on you either having significantly faster tech, or punishing a greedy opp. who tries to macro too hard. That being said you can try to all-in IF:
1. You see you have faster colossus and or colossus range than your opp. And it has to be significantly faster, (like 1+minutes) because chrono boost will close the gap once your upgrade is finished. and your timing has to be tight (start hitting him as soon as you have range)
2. He expands and you scout it early
- If you scout your opponents nexus, before its 30% done, it should be really easy for you to throw down some gates, chrono out some units and go for an all-in as his nexus finishes. You always want to hit AS or RIGHT AFTER the nexus is done, or your timing will be too late and he will defend. Have a proxy pylon set up in advance to aid this process
3. If he goes phoenix and uses all the energy to kill probes. Phoenix suck in a fight, so if you scout phoenix and have a decent gateway count. you can sometimes just go and attack him as he's lifting your probes. because he wont have the energy to really defend your push later. (very similar to some old school anti-muta pushes)
4. If he goes DT's / Immortal drops and loses the units without dealing damage. Whenever someone invests alot of gas/tech into harass and fails to do any significant damage with it, they fall severly behind in tech. Follow up with a strong gateway or colossus timing and you can usually just kill them as they try to expand to their natural or third.
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So I often lose to Roach Ling all-ins with fake third bases.
I see no way to scout it, they take Gases only after Lings and Queens are out and hit before 7 minutes so no agression could be on the way from my site.. If I don't scout it I can't make the 3+ Cannons I need to survive.
They got Zerglings and Queens to deny scouting, only Gas taken in main base and most of the time they transfer workers from the main to the natural.
However the second Hatch is purely to be able to pump out enough Speedlings. Worker wise it is a one base all-in. It looks like a fast third base.
I'm pretty lost on that one..
I asked a Zerg and he said Gateway Opening would be the only way to hold this but I don't want to believe that...
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Italy12246 Posts
If they fake a third the only way to see it coming is to scout it with your first zealot halfway across the map, and even then it's a very tough hold.
That said, they can't hit before 7 minutes if they mindgame that much, do you have any replays?
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On January 02 2013 23:09 Teoita wrote:
If they fake a third the only way to see it coming is to scout it with your first zealot halfway across the map, and even then it's a very tough hold.
That said, they can't hit before 7 minutes if they mindgame that much, do you have any replays?
Well he had Lings and Roaches hitting my Natural at 6:40.
I play lot of HotS right now so I don't think there are any WoL replays of it. But he only took one Gas and made like 5 Roaches to kill the Cannon, the rest was Lings.
Also we played on Antiga and I wall off Nexus to Ramp which I think makes it even harder.
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Italy12246 Posts
Just post a Hots replay i can view those 
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Someone look at my PvT?
. http://drop.sc/290270
I go for some 3 gate pressure off of an expand.
I push in with my first warpin at 7:30, instead of what should've been a 6:15, 6:30 push. I needed a few stalkers, a 3rd sentry and less zealot.
My zealots mis-targetted the bunker, scvs, and got blocked by each other. Do I shiftclick targets or A-move them? Target the bunker or SCV first?
I go for another gateway push at around 10 minutes, which I believe is a bad idea because I lack sentries, am behind in upgrades and he has stim.
I engage with my zealots stuck behind my stalkers (Do i double click and move them forward prior to fighting? Or should I be pulling my stalkers back?
Should I have just gone home when I saw the medivacs?
Right now from seeing the replay"
-3 gate pressure needs to hit much earlier. Needs to target bunker then scv then marine/marauder? confused about the order.
-need an earlier forge + crono, a robo for at least obs and charge
-keep sentries alive or replenish
-zealots in front, stalker/sentry behind.
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On January 02 2013 07:44 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 07:22 probeater wrote:
im having lots of trouble on antiga shipyard vs. zerg, especially if they are random and get zerg, because if i scout them last they already have a 7rr coming or something else. otherwise when they go muta (most of the time) it's hard for me to defend so many angles of attacking. im wondering if it's better to just veto this map, but the only other options are shakuras, TDA or condemned TDA and Shakuras rotate in about a day and a half. Just veto it when that happens. Antiga is an atrocious map without forced cross-spawns, and it's not really that much better with it....
what do you mean by they rotate?
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On January 03 2013 06:03 probeater wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 07:44 ineversmile wrote:On January 02 2013 07:22 probeater wrote:
im having lots of trouble on antiga shipyard vs. zerg, especially if they are random and get zerg, because if i scout them last they already have a 7rr coming or something else. otherwise when they go muta (most of the time) it's hard for me to defend so many angles of attacking. im wondering if it's better to just veto this map, but the only other options are shakuras, TDA or condemned TDA and Shakuras rotate in about a day and a half. Just veto it when that happens. Antiga is an atrocious map without forced cross-spawns, and it's not really that much better with it.... what do you mean by they rotate?
Tomorrow, those maps are taken out of the ladder pool for the next season.
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On January 03 2013 03:54 S7EFEN wrote:Someone look at my PvT? . http://drop.sc/290270I go for some 3 gate pressure off of an expand. I push in with my first warpin at 7:30, instead of what should've been a 6:15, 6:30 push. I needed a few stalkers, a 3rd sentry and less zealot. My zealots mis-targetted the bunker, scvs, and got blocked by each other. Do I shiftclick targets or A-move them? Target the bunker or SCV first? I go for another gateway push at around 10 minutes, which I believe is a bad idea because I lack sentries, am behind in upgrades and he has stim. I engage with my zealots stuck behind my stalkers (Do i double click and move them forward prior to fighting? Or should I be pulling my stalkers back? Should I have just gone home when I saw the medivacs? Right now from seeing the replay" -3 gate pressure needs to hit much earlier. Needs to target bunker then scv then marine/marauder? confused about the order. -need an earlier forge + crono, a robo for at least obs and charge -keep sentries alive or replenish -zealots in front, stalker/sentry behind.
Watching the replay and taking notes.
- I generally don't like your 3 gate pressure. I feel you could hit earlier with earlier gates and full chronoboost on Warp Gate. What ended out happening is you running up ramp against Terran concave and bunker and doing like 0 damage, and put yourself behind on tech that you didn't get and army wise. I generally don't like the 3 gate pressure, but it's only personal opinion.
- When Warp Gate is ready, have a proxy Pylon ready and warp immediately units from your gates to reinforce the push as much as possible.
- Watch you saturation: if it is your choice to have 2 probes on each gas in the main so be it, but put 16 probes in each mineral line, and when the gasses on natural are ready, put probes in them ASAP.
- You float a-l-o-t of resources during the attack that could had gone to Robo, Twilight or upgrades.
- The Terran was impatient and threw his advantage away instead of waiting for Medivacs to finish you off. In your position I would had started upgrades and AOE tech instead of taking an unnecessary risk trying to finish the Terran with a gateway allin while he had already Stim and Medivacs, and a pretty good defensive position which he held nicely against the attack, at which point the game was pretty much over as you had no upgrades and no running 3rd to compensate.
- I can tell exactly why you had Zealots behind Stalkers: 1 hotkey syndrome. Get used to separate groups for Stalkers and Zealots+Sentries. It's not easy to get used to, but it's worth it.
- Once your Zealots are gone, retreat and regroup!!! Stalkers and Sentries alone are terrible fighting units unless you have godlike forcefields and/or heavy upgrade advantage.
- Watch your warp cycles, get used to tap to your Warp Gates frequently to check their status.
You have to understand few things in PvT:
1. When attacking Terran front, you have to have at that moment heavy unit advantage. Bunkers and SCV's makes front defense easier. I said I don't like the 3 gate pressure because at least from my experience it is too "in between" and Terrans can hold it handily, so I thinks it's better to go flat 1 base allin and try to crush him right on the spot, or chrono probes and tech.
2. When Terran pushes with Medivacs, Combat Shield and +1 Weap, he "tests" your build up to that point. He has a very cost effective army fighting against gateway units so you must have 1 of the followings: HT with storm, at least 1 Colossus, heavy upgrade advantage (2+) with good ForceFields. You also must have a good amount of units, because a loss in a fight at that point when u don't have a crushing 3 base econ and 20 gates snowballs really fast.
From what I saw you lacked direction in your play (What did you tried to achieve with the 3 gate pressure?) and long term thought, as well as mechanical problems of not spending your money while attacking and not hitting warp cycles.
- Watch your replay and ask yourself "Why did I do that? what i'm trying to achieve?" as often as possible. Imagine in your head your lategame setup and think how to get there.
- Accustom yourself to tap frequently to check the state of your production structures.
- Try to set yourself checkmarks when to build things like "After I do my 1st 3 gate warp-in round, I need to remember to build a Robo" for example.
hope it helps, ApocAlypsE
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On January 03 2013 06:35 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 06:03 probeater wrote:On January 02 2013 07:44 ineversmile wrote:On January 02 2013 07:22 probeater wrote:
im having lots of trouble on antiga shipyard vs. zerg, especially if they are random and get zerg, because if i scout them last they already have a 7rr coming or something else. otherwise when they go muta (most of the time) it's hard for me to defend so many angles of attacking. im wondering if it's better to just veto this map, but the only other options are shakuras, TDA or condemned TDA and Shakuras rotate in about a day and a half. Just veto it when that happens. Antiga is an atrocious map without forced cross-spawns, and it's not really that much better with it.... what do you mean by they rotate? Tomorrow, those maps are taken out of the ladder pool for the next season.
Really? Which ones are they adding back in?
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Italy12246 Posts
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Dear brotosses,
A new season has begun and I was deeply disappointed in my finish last season. On the last night of said season, I dropped from rank 24 to rank 48 which was embarrassing. This has a lot to do with almost only facing protosses. PvP is my Achille's heel and I just can't get a grasp of it! In this post, I attach two replays which kind of sums up my PvP problems. I would be deeply grateful to anyone who could tell me what I'm doing wrong!
http://drop.sc/290458 --- Antiga Shipyard
I opt for blink stalkers but bad scouting from my side makes this a terrible choice. My opponent went for really early immortals so he shut down my attack EASILY! Even though, the simple answer is "Scout better, don't go blink when he goes for really fast immos" I am looking for... what do I do after this? I thought about archons but his immos would counter that aswell, I thought about dts but his early robo would make it possible to get observers out without falling behind. Going robo tech would just be too late? I decided on going greedy as hell and it actually worked out okay... until the engagement.
I had 1/1 versus his 1/0 but still lost due to positioning and probably a worse army. What should I have done instead?
http://drop.sc/290464 --- Entombed Valley
Punishing expansions has always been my weak side. AGIANTSMURF wrote how to do it in this thread yesterday and I had that in my mind. I saw that he was expanding (we did identic openers, 3 gate robo) so I cancelled my robo bay, threw down two gates and went for it. He fucked up a rally point and threw an immortal away for free. Even though he did that, he held with ease, without pulling any probes or anything.
tl;dr I struggle with engagements and punishing expansions in PvP. How can I improve this?
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On January 03 2013 20:33 NVRLand wrote:Dear brotosses, A new season has begun and I was deeply disappointed in my finish last season. On the last night of said season, I dropped from rank 24 to rank 48 which was embarrassing. This has a lot to do with almost only facing protosses. PvP is my Achille's heel and I just can't get a grasp of it! In this post, I attach two replays which kind of sums up my PvP problems. I would be deeply grateful to anyone who could tell me what I'm doing wrong! http://drop.sc/290458 --- Antiga Shipyard I opt for blink stalkers but bad scouting from my side makes this a terrible choice. My opponent went for really early immortals so he shut down my attack EASILY! Even though, the simple answer is "Scout better, don't go blink when he goes for really fast immos" I am looking for... what do I do after this? I thought about archons but his immos would counter that aswell, I thought about dts but his early robo would make it possible to get observers out without falling behind. Going robo tech would just be too late? I decided on going greedy as hell and it actually worked out okay... until the engagement. I had 1/1 versus his 1/0 but still lost due to positioning and probably a worse army. What should I have done instead? http://drop.sc/290464 --- Entombed Valley Punishing expansions has always been my weak side. AGIANTSMURF wrote how to do it in this thread yesterday and I had that in my mind. I saw that he was expanding (we did identic openers, 3 gate robo) so I cancelled my robo bay, threw down two gates and went for it. He fucked up a rally point and threw an immortal away for free. Even though he did that, he held with ease, without pulling any probes or anything. tl;dr I struggle with engagements and punishing expansions in PvP. How can I improve this?
I watched your replays. In PvP it is especially important to have very solid builds, and I think your build in the first game could be much more efficient. As an example, this is what I do every PvP currently:
9 Pylon
13 Gate
15 Gas
16 Pylon
18 Core
19 Gas
20 Gate
21 Wg, Stalker
24 Pylon, cut Probes
24 Twilight
24 2x Stalker
28 2x Probe
30 Blink
30 Gate
30 2x Stalker
34 Pylon
CB Probes 3x, 1x on first Stalker and the rest on Blink. This allows you to hit with 8 Stalkers right after you do your first warp-in with Blink. Your build hit later and with less Stalkers. You can do 3 gate blink everywhere if you like, but you have to be ready to transition out of it. Against Robo builds, you have to set up a contain with a Sentry (such that he will lose units when he tries to move out), and get a Robo and expand yourself.
Regarding the second game, again the build could be a little more optimal, but more importantly, you can't really do timings in PvP if you don't have a tech advantage. You're warping in Stalker constantly, while you know he's building Immortals. There's really no way this can work out well.
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On January 03 2013 21:02 Bahamuth wrote:I watched your replays. In PvP it is especially important to have very solid builds, and I think your build in the first game could be much more efficient. As an example, this is what I do every PvP currently: 9 Pylon 13 Gate 15 Gas 16 Pylon 18 Core 19 Gas 20 Gate 21 Wg, Stalker 24 Pylon, cut Probes 24 Twilight 24 2x Stalker 28 2x Probe 30 Blink 30 Gate 30 2x Stalker 34 Pylon CB Probes 3x, 1x on first Stalker and the rest on Blink. This allows you to hit with 8 Stalkers right after you do your first warp-in with Blink. Your build hit later and with less Stalkers. You can do 3 gate blink everywhere if you like, but you have to be ready to transition out of it. Against Robo builds, you have to set up a contain with a Sentry (such that he will lose units when he tries to move out), and get a Robo and expand yourself. Regarding the second game, again the build could be a little more optimal, but more importantly, you can't really do timings in PvP if you don't have a tech advantage. You're warping in Stalker constantly, while you know he's building Immortals. There's really no way this can work out well.
Omg, accidently hopped into a custom game when I was going to create a custom game to practice this build order. Turns out I beat a top master protoss with it O_O (It was quite a build order win tho since he went stargate play but daaaamn, that build felt awesome) Huge thanks!
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Vs. small numbers of un-upgraded Marine/Marauder, am I better off target-firing marines or marauders first with my Stalkers?
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Italy12246 Posts
Marauders; once they are down cleaning up the marines is really simple.
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EPT
