On July 30 2012 06:25 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Only in the early-mid game will phoenix work. PDD affects phoenix and if you actually read the post you would see why going stargate won't work - sky terran = vikings.
I did read the post. I know he got 2 stargates. You can't possibly expect Phoenix to do well by themselves; you need the range and you need to do your best to match the terran with air upgrades. Without range, PDD wrecks you. With it, you get a lot more shots off from different angles and you can drain the PDDs much more safely/quickly. But it doesn't really matter what what we say if the guy doesn't post a replay because positioning is everything when it comes to air vs air battles with PDDs. It also would help if we knew whether he was talking about PDD spam as coming from 5 ravens or 15, and whether he was taking fights near his base or near his opponents...or out on the middle of the map. As with fighting the 1-1-1 all-in, if you force PDDs away from your base, obviously you can just fall back and then take favorable engagements by your own base.
On July 30 2012 06:42 eugalp wrote:Sorry but I don't think this is good advice. A handful of phoenixes are certainly helpful against banshees. However, if you invest so heavily into air (multiple stargates, fleet beacon, upgrades etc) a terran can easily transition into any number of things like bio, thors, or battlecruisers in which case your phoenix fleet will be made next to useless. Even in a pure air war, viking/bc/raven will do quite well vs phoenix/vr/carrier.
People have made mutalisks in ZvT for 2 years, despite thors existing, and that works out just fine. If you don't do something stupid and fly your really fast air units into the range of really slow ground units, you should be OK. And if they use thors to help push across the map, then that means it's no longer a pure terran air army; actually it becomes much more like mech in terms of speed and being anchored to the ground. And then you can use things like Chargelots and Immortals with feedback support to go snipe the Thors, which makes your Phoenixes suddenly way stronger for a period of time.
If the issue is pure Terran air vs pure Protoss air, it comes down to upgrades, composition, and positioning. If your protoss air units are 1-0-0 and the terran has 3-1 from a delayed double armory, you're probably not going to win even food air to air battles. If you have just Phoenixes against a mix of Viking/BC/Raven, you're probably not going to win those fights either. But if you have a good unit mix and you're only 1 or 2 upgrades behind the terran, the fights are actually really even and really micro-intensive. A lot of it comes down to picking off almost all of the vikings and then using Void Rays and a warp-in of Stalkers to go deal with the BCs.
People are so afraid to use air units in PvT because they simply haven't tried it, so they don't understand it. Or they try it once or twice, but they don't have a cohesive plan for how to engage so they things don't work well for them. How long did it take for people to actually use steady immortal production against the Roach max? How long did it take for protosses to adapt to the 1-1-1 all-in? Air vs air battles is just another bump in the road.
On July 30 2012 06:25 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Only in the early-mid game will phoenix work. PDD affects phoenix and if you actually read the post you would see why going stargate won't work - sky terran = vikings.
I did read the post. I know he got 2 stargates. You can't possibly expect Phoenix to do well by themselves; you need the range and you need to do your best to match the terran with air upgrades. Without range, PDD wrecks you. With it, you get a lot more shots off from different angles and you can drain the PDDs much more safely/quickly. But it doesn't really matter what what we say if the guy doesn't post a replay because positioning is everything when it comes to air vs air battles with PDDs. It also would help if we knew whether he was talking about PDD spam as coming from 5 ravens or 15, and whether he was taking fights near his base or near his opponents...or out on the middle of the map. As with fighting the 1-1-1 all-in, if you force PDDs away from your base, obviously you can just fall back and then take favorable engagements by your own base.
On July 30 2012 06:42 eugalp wrote:Sorry but I don't think this is good advice. A handful of phoenixes are certainly helpful against banshees. However, if you invest so heavily into air (multiple stargates, fleet beacon, upgrades etc) a terran can easily transition into any number of things like bio, thors, or battlecruisers in which case your phoenix fleet will be made next to useless. Even in a pure air war, viking/bc/raven will do quite well vs phoenix/vr/carrier.
People have made mutalisks in ZvT for 2 years, despite thors existing, and that works out just fine. If you don't do something stupid and fly your really fast air units into the range of really slow ground units, you should be OK. And if they use thors to help push across the map, then that means it's no longer a pure terran air army; actually it becomes much more like mech in terms of speed and being anchored to the ground. And then you can use things like Chargelots and Immortals with feedback support to go snipe the Thors, which makes your Phoenixes suddenly way stronger for a period of time.
If the issue is pure Terran air vs pure Protoss air, it comes down to upgrades, composition, and positioning. If your protoss air units are 1-0-0 and the terran has 3-1 from a delayed double armory, you're probably not going to win even food air to air battles. If you have just Phoenixes against a mix of Viking/BC/Raven, you're probably not going to win those fights either. But if you have a good unit mix and you're only 1 or 2 upgrades behind the terran, the fights are actually really even and really micro-intensive. A lot of it comes down to picking off almost all of the vikings and then using Void Rays and a warp-in of Stalkers to go deal with the BCs.
People are so afraid to use air units in PvT because they simply haven't tried it, so they don't understand it. Or they try it once or twice, but they don't have a cohesive plan for how to engage so they things don't work well for them. How long did it take for people to actually use steady immortal production against the Roach max? How long did it take for protosses to adapt to the 1-1-1 all-in? Air vs air battles is just another bump in the road.
Ok i have to chime in and say this is wrong. No Terran goes straight into air they use mass marine to help transtion into sky play since they are so gas light. If you try going straight for air you leave yourself open to so many timings. And at the same time Sky toss is useless vs sky terran. I posted a good counter to sky terran a few posts before yours.
Air vs Air has been played out all toss units build to slow to counter terran. Lets say you have a battle where you both lose around 80 supply. You need to have so many stargates and chrono saved up while the Terran is going to be making 6-8 vikings at a time minimum and 6-8banshee with ravens also. Its just not a good choice ever to commit to all toss air.
Heys, I recently just switched to brotoss & came across this build in a PvP that absolutely destroyed me mid game despite being ahead:
I fend off his first 2 attacks & end up ahead in worker/army, same upgrades (0/0, my 1/1 was gonna finish before his), even a base(non mining) ahead & yet he rapes my zealots/stalkers/immortal(s) with chargelots/archon & couple voidsrays.
Seeing I'm quiet new to PvP and had absolutely no idea how to react to an incoming chargelot+archon attack I canceled my 2nd ( after a 3gate robo ) and pumped immortals.
On July 30 2012 04:33 eGengar wrote: Im top 8 diamond and PvT is my worst match up. Not so much that I lose a lot, but more that I dont know what to do in Pvt and I always seem to not have enough. I open with the Sase 1 gate expo into 3 gate pressure build and with that, I usually win about 20% of the time. If the pressure fails, I go back home and go for a 3 colossi push and if that fails, I dont know what to do. I take a third behind the colossi push but it seems that I always die in the tranistion between colossus and templar tech.
Any tips? PvT is so frustrating
try 2 colossi, and try hiding them, this earlier (hopefully better concealed) push I find is usually more likely to work. you might be dying by neglecting upgrades, him being way ahead (maybe 2-1 against 0-0) when he kills you? the 3 colossi push you are describing sounds kind of all-in in a way, I know you don't lose as soon as it doesn't win the game, but as you have said if held, the terran has a huge timing he can exploit. If you want to play it safer then only 2 colossi, (you can also get +1 weapons for your push), with a twilight council as soon as possible after 2nd colossi or as soon as you like, obviously getting archives straight after and chronoing the hell out of storm. if you are playing macro game maybe wise to get a 2nd forge when you know you're safe (maybe as early as when move out, maybe as late as when storm finishes) remember to warp templar as soon as archives finishes to build up energy, if you're attacked before storm you can morph archons.
I also get what you mean, I find it's very hard to 'pressure' a terran as if you retreat he just stims in and wipes out the rest of your army giving him the game. Because of this I find I either have to play defensively or all-in, no middle ground. A good trick is to play defensively but with harass, try this http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-475-warp-prism-pvt-style. You can do the same build but with colossi if you prefer them (how i used to play this 'idea'), the main idea is just an early warp prism can force the terran back delaying his dangerous mid-game timing, or do a semi all-in as he takes a lot of damage in his main
On July 30 2012 09:44 Freekje wrote: Heys, I recently just switched to brotoss & came across this build in a PvP that absolutely destroyed me mid game despite being ahead:
I fend off his first 2 attacks & end up ahead in worker/army, same upgrades (0/0, my 1/1 was gonna finish before his), even a base(non mining) ahead & yet he rapes my zealots/stalkers/immortal(s) with chargelots/archon & couple voidsrays.
Seeing I'm quiet new to PvP and had absolutely no idea how to react to an incoming chargelot+archon attack I canceled my 2nd ( after a 3gate robo ) and pumped immortals.
(PS. The question beeing: What composition against chargelots+archons ? )
I'm not a very good player, but when I see chargelot/archon, I counter with lots of buildings, like you're playing against zerg. He has a strong but short ranged army, and one that's "immune" to forcefields, so you need to use buildings to help you created chokes to utilise your longer range. Also, once you get 6 colossi or so, you straight up win. Void rays are an intersting addition.
On July 30 2012 09:26 jcroisdale wrote:Ok i have to chime in and say this is wrong. No Terran goes straight into air they use mass marine to help transtion into sky play since they are so gas light. If you try going straight for air you leave yourself open to so many timings.
Nobody ever said you should go into mass air and not go for splash damage. And nobody ever said anything about going straight for mass air. I only have mentioned transitioning into a couple stargates as a counter to skytoss, with the assumption that you gradually incorporate more air later on. Obviously you don't leave yourself cold to marines; everything in PvT revolves around the protoss dealing with marines.
And at the same time Sky toss is useless vs sky terran. I posted a good counter to sky terran a few posts before yours.
I don't disagree with your counter at all. Templar are great against air and blink stalkers have all kinds of wonderful timings and positional advantages against mass Terran air. But that doesn't automatically make skytoss a bad unit composition. If you think that Protoss air really is bad against Terran air (and I mean just air to air fights without HTs or Ghosts or Thors), then I would love to see some arguments with empirical evidence. Right now, what I'm getting is: Terran air beats Protoss air. I'm curious about how.
Air vs Air has been played out all toss units build to slow to counter terran.
Where has it been played out? Certainly not very often in pro games. When was the last time a terran went Sky against Toss in a major tournament? That's not a rhetorical quesiont; I'm actually curious. Was it MVP vs Squirtle in that crazy GSL final game on Metropolis? As a matter of fact, how often do protosses actually even get a Stargate in PvT? We should honestly be looking at existing games for this discussion. I could be dead wrong about everything, but if that's the case, I would like to see why and how I'm wrong in some replays/vods.
Lets say you have a battle where you both lose around 80 supply. You need to have so many stargates and chrono saved up while the Terran is going to be making 6-8 vikings at a time minimum and 6-8banshee with ravens also. Its just not a good choice ever to commit to all toss air.
I think that you haven't done any of the math for this.
If your opponent is producing 6 vikings and 6 banshees with ravens also, that's 3 reactored Starports and 7 Tech-Labbed Starports. In total, you're looking at 10 Starports which is 1500 minerals and 1000 gas, alongside 150/150 in reactors and 350/175 in Tech Labs. So 2000 minerals and 1325 Gas for their production. If you match that amount of gas with Stargates, you could build almost 9 stargates and have the minerals left over...9 stargates is 1350/1350. Also consider that Vikings and Phoenixes cost exactly the same amount of money, but have completely different build times. A viking builds in 42 seconds and 2 to a reactor, so from one Starport you could say that's a 21 second build time. A Phoenix builds in 35 seconds, but boosted it produces in 25 seconds--if you constantly boost it, it's even a couple seconds shorter than that. So you actually can build Phoenixes almost as quickly per stargate as a Terran can build Vikings from a reactored starport. If you trade even supply in Phoenixes vs Vikings, they both cost exactly the same mineral and gas cost, and have a very comparable production rate with each race's respective macro mechanics. We can call this about even, since a Reactored Starport costs 200/150 and produces fighter aircraft by a couple seconds faster than a 150/150 Stargate.
Battlecruisers cost 400/300 and take 90 seconds to produce. Carriers cost 450/250 and take 120 seconds to produce. If you fully chrono a Carrier, you can chrono it 4 times to reduce it down to 80 seconds. Assuming you miss one chrono each time, it's a 90 second build time per carrier and then it basically builds the interceptors fast enough to be fully stocked by the time it moves into a fight. They take 8 seconds each to build, so 32 seconds for a carrier to be fully packed...if we're talking about fighting anywhere in the middle of the map, that's plenty of time for slow carriers to finish building ints en route. While BCs somewhat counter Carriers because of their high armor vs Carriers DPS, because of their higher total HP, because of Carriers' shields naturally being a lower armor quality (since the base is 0) and due to Yamato cannon, the issue at hand isn't which capital ship wins in a fight. It's whether or not you can remax as fast as the Terran. Well, this math dictates that the Carrier is a bit more mineral-intensive and a bit less gas-intensive, and they both share a common build time. By the stage in the game in which your opponent is fully producing off of 10 Starports, you can definitely constantly chronoboost your Stargates with 5 Nexi.
Ravens and Banshees both take 60 seconds each to produce. A Void Ray takes 60 seconds to produce, which could also be reduced to 50 or 40 seconds if you use one or two boosts. Ravens also get better over time, so it's actually harder on the Terran here because they want to build Ravens and let them sit on the map for a minute or two to charge up energy before an engagement. This actually points more towards the Protoss having the edge in being able to force an engagement after the remax, but before the Ravens are capped out with full options. But, despite all this, we could probably say that things are about even here because you're already spending chronoboost on other air units and we weren't assuming the Ravens had full energy before fights--they obviously would have enough for PDDs, which are very useful.
If you have about even production in terms of gas, and you have 5 or 6 Nexi, you can remax 80 food of air about as quickly as the Terran, and at a comparable cost. In the case of Void Rays against Ravens, you are spending less gas and considerably less gas pre food than the Terran. In the case of Carriers vs BCs, you're spending less gas and more minerals. So since your army is ideally supported by Templar, you're spending less gas on your fleet than the terran so an even economy will let you eek out some HTs.
Conclusion: If you don't think you can match production with a late-game Sky Terran on 10 Starports, it's because you're too lazy to build 8 Stargates. And let's be honest: in the late-late game when you have basically nothing that needs to be boosted, you're going to have 100 energy banked on almost all of ~5 Nexi. It's almost infinite boost at that point.
He goes for a very defensive 6pool, he doesn't make that many lings but he hits before my forge is finished so I tried that worker stacking attacking and it worked... not that good but not that awful either.
We're pretty even after his lings are dead. I am trying to follow up w/ some 3gate pressure but suddenly there's another 15 lings at my base and I have to cancel my expand (He has his nat up and running at this point)
So guys, what did I do wrong? Was it my forge that was too greedy? Did I fail in the follow-up?
On July 29 2012 02:33 StaraCroft wrote: Does anyone have a good idea how to play against random. I've been using my PvR games to practice new BO's - basically abuse them as my own personal very easy AI, but that's the best idea I got how to deal with them. I think it would probably be some variant of 4gate, proxy Warp Prism maybe?
I would appreciate any input, but could you assume last scout on Condemed Ridge, to weed out the builds that require your 9 scout to arrive before the end of times :'(
Here's how I deal with PvR:
Always pylon scout with 12/13 gateway at the top of your ramp. If Protoss, continue with whatever PvP build you want. If Terran, you can 1gate FE per normal or robo expand, whatever you would normally do in that matchup. Now here's the problem with PvR, versus Z you usually will want to FFE, but you can't blindly FFE in PvR, so here's what I do and why - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290798
This is an old push that was pretty popular ~6 months ago. Zergs got pretty good at fending it off, and thats why you mostly see FFE--> immortal sentry allins at a slightly later timing with a lot more gateways. However, this 1 base push is still very potent if your opponent doesn't know how to stop it really well, and if you do the build perfectly, they will need insanely good control and preparation to stay alive; assuming you have good ff's and micro.
I don't do this build against zergs on ladder anymore because this build functions very similarly to how 1-1-1 does in PvT (and the zerg has to react in a similar way that protoss has to react to terran 1-1-1). So, if you think about it like a person who doesn't always play P, trying to defend a really strong version of 1-1-1 with good execution, you can see why this 1 base protoss all in can work very well against people who roll Zerg while playing random on ladder
tl;dr gateway on highground, play however you want vT&P, 1 base allin vZ because chances are if they are not a full time Z player, they won't be able to stop it if you know what you're doing.
What are some good PvT all ins that would abuse the current metagame the best? Not asking for one base all ins like immortal bust or void ray rush, because its stupid, if its one base they will be very carefull, at least i think they will... More something like that's harder to recognize and scout but hits hard from 2 base economy or something like that. I can stop probe production and make a strong army and push with it but i was wondering is there something that has nice timings and perhaps guide or replay? Somehow i don't understand all ins in PvT even though i am in master league. Probably because T is good defensive race so i just macro i try to play standard. Thanks.
On July 31 2012 02:01 Mesha wrote: What are some good PvT all ins that would abuse the current metagame the best? Not asking for one base all ins like immortal bust or void ray rush, because its stupid, if its one base they will be very carefull, at least i think they will... More something like that's harder to recognize and scout but hits hard from 2 base economy or something like that. I can stop probe production and make a strong army and push with it but i was wondering is there something that has nice timings and perhaps guide or replay? Somehow i don't understand all ins in PvT even though i am in master league. Probably because T is good defensive race so i just macro i try to play standard. Thanks.
The 8 gate HT zealot Storm all in. Thats the best way to pull off a 2 base all in against T in the current metagame.
Fast +1 armor, fast storm then do an all in. Axslav on CPC with MaximusBlack was a great coaching session where he teaches MB the all in.
IM_First also made great use of it in the most recent MLG arena.
For getting better, are there any builds I should be practicing more than others. I have almost 450 games won but I am stuck in silver ever since I started playing again. I was thinking something along the lines of practicing 4 gate mostly and just working on getting better mechanics and such. Anybody?
On July 31 2012 04:39 lonecricket wrote: For getting better, are there any builds I should be practicing more than others. I have almost 450 games won but I am stuck in silver ever since I started playing again. I was thinking something along the lines of practicing 4 gate mostly and just working on getting better mechanics and such. Anybody?
At your level that's not a bad idea. Although, some people will argue that its better to adapt macro build/s and learn your way up that way. I am a master league player, and i was always aggresive, i played and learned macro only when i hit the wall and my aggresive builds haven't worked, so maybe you ll climb up and improve that way as well. Try 50 games 4 gate and see how it goes. Builds become exponentionally stronger more games you played with it, cuz you adapt to all the flaws of the build and use all the good stuff to its maximum. gl
I completely agree with Mesha. Play a style with which you are comfortable. When you hit a wall, that's when you should change things. But until then, do something that you enjoy and play to your strengths as much as possible, because eventually you will just adapt what you know to other situations. In the case of 4gating, going up to 2 bases and 8gating in PvT is basically the same concept with a later hit. Or mixing in blink and an obs with 7 gates. Playing aggressively will hone your unit control and critical decision-making. Eventually, you can learn how to build 75 probes..but it can wait.
On August 01 2012 01:43 Astronomer wrote: As a new protoss, and sc2 player, I was wondering what are a few good builds to start with for each matchup?
4 gate works in all matchups if you ade into that sort of stuff. it will help you familiarize yourself woth the basic prktoss buildings and gateway units
On August 01 2012 01:43 Astronomer wrote: As a new protoss, and sc2 player, I was wondering what are a few good builds to start with for each matchup?
4 gate works in all matchups if you ade into that sort of stuff. it will help you familiarize yourself woth the basic prktoss buildings and gateway units
Agreed. If you want to get used to the units and controlling an army, 4gating is the way to go. It's also good to have a bunch of production buildings when you get started, since macromanagement is a skill with a learning curve.
I think the standard is pick one and work on that. 4 Gate, as suggested above, may be OK, but I reckon it would get real boring, real fast. That said, there is nothing to prevent you doing, and learning, the 4 Gate in all your PvP matchups.
EPT
