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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On July 29 2012 00:03 YesEvil wrote:
Hey all,
Desperately need help in PvZ. I am plat on NA but Diamond on SEA, all I ever see Zerg doing is going mass Muta. Its ridiculous because no matter what I do I can't defend all my bases at once, i try stalker archon --> not enough gas. I try pure archon --> slow and they just dance around bases. Even if i split my archons up they will get to a critical mass. I have tried hitting right on their spire, but on 2 base I struggle to get a force up before they get 3 base muta tech. Early aggro fails against the spines they put up, and some cheap unit defense.
What am I supposed to do? Every single time, they go mutas, and I try blink stalker, archons and both and it doesn't work. No point going pheonixes when they can out produce you by sooo much, even with the range buff they will just go for eco.
plz help.
I'm of the opinion that Phoenixes are the best counters to Mutalisks. Templar are good, but there's something fundamentally wrong with defending fast air units with slow ground units. The typical problem with Phoenixes, as a counter to mutas, is that they don't work if you aren't getting that Stargate and you don't have an initial fleet of Phoenixes. But if you already have a Stargate and a startup group of 3-5 Phoenixes, you can boost almost 3 Phoenixes per minute and gradually work towards giving them range...and then you'll actually punish your opponent for going mutalisks by killing all of them. Then you get the rubber band effect as you go over to one of his bases and pick up 20 drones with all that banked energy. So, in my opinion, if you're in Stargate tech you should definitely use that to deal with mutas. If you aren't, then it takes a while to establish...but this is part of why I almost always use a stargate for macro games in the match-up.
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Canada13389 Posts
On July 29 2012 01:29 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 00:03 YesEvil wrote:
Hey all,
Desperately need help in PvZ. I am plat on NA but Diamond on SEA, all I ever see Zerg doing is going mass Muta. Its ridiculous because no matter what I do I can't defend all my bases at once, i try stalker archon --> not enough gas. I try pure archon --> slow and they just dance around bases. Even if i split my archons up they will get to a critical mass. I have tried hitting right on their spire, but on 2 base I struggle to get a force up before they get 3 base muta tech. Early aggro fails against the spines they put up, and some cheap unit defense.
What am I supposed to do? Every single time, they go mutas, and I try blink stalker, archons and both and it doesn't work. No point going pheonixes when they can out produce you by sooo much, even with the range buff they will just go for eco.
plz help. I'm of the opinion that Phoenixes are the best counters to Mutalisks. Templar are good, but there's something fundamentally wrong with defending fast air units with slow ground units. The typical problem with Phoenixes, as a counter to mutas, is that they don't work if you aren't getting that Stargate and you don't have an initial fleet of Phoenixes. But if you already have a Stargate and a startup group of 3-5 Phoenixes, you can boost almost 3 Phoenixes per minute and gradually work towards giving them range...and then you'll actually punish your opponent for going mutalisks by killing all of them. Then you get the rubber band effect as you go over to one of his bases and pick up 20 drones with all that banked energy. So, in my opinion, if you're in Stargate tech you should definitely use that to deal with mutas. If you aren't, then it takes a while to establish...but this is part of why I almost always use a stargate for macro games in the match-up.
How do you transition into a third? I've found it really hard to take a third off of a stargate without getting over run by roaches and lings. Lately I've been trying to take a fast third then i find mutas are a problem.
Have you tried the Oz style third >> Stargate?
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 29 2012 02:23 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 01:29 ineversmile wrote:On July 29 2012 00:03 YesEvil wrote:
Hey all,
Desperately need help in PvZ. I am plat on NA but Diamond on SEA, all I ever see Zerg doing is going mass Muta. Its ridiculous because no matter what I do I can't defend all my bases at once, i try stalker archon --> not enough gas. I try pure archon --> slow and they just dance around bases. Even if i split my archons up they will get to a critical mass. I have tried hitting right on their spire, but on 2 base I struggle to get a force up before they get 3 base muta tech. Early aggro fails against the spines they put up, and some cheap unit defense.
What am I supposed to do? Every single time, they go mutas, and I try blink stalker, archons and both and it doesn't work. No point going pheonixes when they can out produce you by sooo much, even with the range buff they will just go for eco.
plz help. I'm of the opinion that Phoenixes are the best counters to Mutalisks. Templar are good, but there's something fundamentally wrong with defending fast air units with slow ground units. The typical problem with Phoenixes, as a counter to mutas, is that they don't work if you aren't getting that Stargate and you don't have an initial fleet of Phoenixes. But if you already have a Stargate and a startup group of 3-5 Phoenixes, you can boost almost 3 Phoenixes per minute and gradually work towards giving them range...and then you'll actually punish your opponent for going mutalisks by killing all of them. Then you get the rubber band effect as you go over to one of his bases and pick up 20 drones with all that banked energy. So, in my opinion, if you're in Stargate tech you should definitely use that to deal with mutas. If you aren't, then it takes a while to establish...but this is part of why I almost always use a stargate for macro games in the match-up. How do you transition into a third? I've found it really hard to take a third off of a stargate without getting over run by roaches and lings. Lately I've been trying to take a fast third then i find mutas are a problem. Have you tried the Oz style third >> Stargate?
I personally use HerO's stargate into fast robo build every time i play macro pvz, and as long as i don't screw up my micro i can hold off roach aggression decently.
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Does anyone have a good idea how to play against random. I've been using my PvR games to practice new BO's - basically abuse them as my own personal very easy AI, but that's the best idea I got how to deal with them.
I think it would probably be some variant of 4gate, proxy Warp Prism maybe?
I would appreciate any input, but could you assume last scout on Condemed Ridge, to weed out the builds that require your 9 scout to arrive before the end of times :'(
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Canada13389 Posts
On July 29 2012 02:33 StaraCroft wrote:
Does anyone have a good idea how to play against random. I've been using my PvR games to practice new BO's - basically abuse them as my own personal very easy AI, but that's the best idea I got how to deal with them.
I think it would probably be some variant of 4gate, proxy Warp Prism maybe?
I would appreciate any input, but could you assume last scout on Condemed Ridge, to weed out the builds that require your 9 scout to arrive before 4:30 :'(
I always open Gate first on high ground in PvR. I veto condemned, and if i discover I play vs a Zerg I do the Yuffe Forge FE which involves Gate first on high ground.
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That build requires you to scout early... 2nd scout on antiga is probably too late already.
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On July 29 2012 02:23 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 01:29 ineversmile wrote:On July 29 2012 00:03 YesEvil wrote:
Hey all,
Desperately need help in PvZ. I am plat on NA but Diamond on SEA, all I ever see Zerg doing is going mass Muta. Its ridiculous because no matter what I do I can't defend all my bases at once, i try stalker archon --> not enough gas. I try pure archon --> slow and they just dance around bases. Even if i split my archons up they will get to a critical mass. I have tried hitting right on their spire, but on 2 base I struggle to get a force up before they get 3 base muta tech. Early aggro fails against the spines they put up, and some cheap unit defense.
What am I supposed to do? Every single time, they go mutas, and I try blink stalker, archons and both and it doesn't work. No point going pheonixes when they can out produce you by sooo much, even with the range buff they will just go for eco.
plz help. I'm of the opinion that Phoenixes are the best counters to Mutalisks. Templar are good, but there's something fundamentally wrong with defending fast air units with slow ground units. The typical problem with Phoenixes, as a counter to mutas, is that they don't work if you aren't getting that Stargate and you don't have an initial fleet of Phoenixes. But if you already have a Stargate and a startup group of 3-5 Phoenixes, you can boost almost 3 Phoenixes per minute and gradually work towards giving them range...and then you'll actually punish your opponent for going mutalisks by killing all of them. Then you get the rubber band effect as you go over to one of his bases and pick up 20 drones with all that banked energy. So, in my opinion, if you're in Stargate tech you should definitely use that to deal with mutas. If you aren't, then it takes a while to establish...but this is part of why I almost always use a stargate for macro games in the match-up. How do you transition into a third? I've found it really hard to take a third off of a stargate without getting over run by roaches and lings. Lately I've been trying to take a fast third then i find mutas are a problem. Have you tried the Oz style third >> Stargate?
I open with 13 Gate 14-15 Gas and an 18 Core into boosted Stalker pressure off of the 1 gate, then I expand behind it and add on 2 more gates and a Stargate as my low ground wall-off. I get a Void Ray and Phoenixes, and I use the Void for defense and the Phoenixes to go harass and keep up pressure. I float the Void over my third and send a Zealot there, then I start my third and build a Robo. If Roach max happens, I boost Voids and Immortals and use Zealots to tank damage while the anti-roach units put a clock on the attack. If Mutas, I go further into Phoenix tech (Beacon, +1, and a second Stargate in that order while I make zealots). If Hydra/Ling, I go for Chargelots. If Hydra/Roach, I go for Immortal/Chargelots and try my damndest to set up a big chargelot flank. If Infestors/spine wall into Hive tech, I get my Beacon and a Mothership ASAP and take a 4th.
Because I'm going from gateway pressure directly into 2base with a stargate, there are very small timing windows where I am not actually scouting my opponent constantly with pokes, and I can often keep a probe alive out on the map to check the third timing. So I have much more intel when it comes to taking a third quickly or slowly, when it comes to getting the right kind of tech, and knowing when to go up to 2 forges or w/e. Between that and the fact that I'm applying one form of pressure after another, it's easier to take a third. The best defense is a good offense.
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Going phoenixes against Mutas is good, I have trouble knowing what they are going off scouting information. If they go a mass Roach style, it does prove troublesome. By base build against zerg is FFE into robo, a few immortals then collo tech. Once im getting collo tech I take a third since immortal/sentry is enough to hold roach/ling combos. But when I see mutas, blink stalker is never enough. They just play around harassing, making it hard to expand safely due to constant harassment. When they get a mass of mutas they roll through a stalker ball. So all the gas you have been getting goes straight into stalkers.
What are the early signs of muta tech? How do I get that information? Timings? (e.g. in PvP a if you check at 5 minutes and they have unit/s at their base it ISN'T a 4 gate.
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Spire before infestation pit is a pretty good sign that he wants to go muta.
Look for his roach warren. If it's pulsating, it means he's upgrading roach speed, so it's very likely he will be going heavy roach. If he's going for a fast hive you can also be pretty sure it's not muta.
The number of lings he builds as defence is also a good indication that he will go into something gas heavy soon.
I think blink/dt is really good. They usually take their 4th and 5th while harassing, and often without adequate defences. Morph a couple of archons in your base and spend all your extra minerals on cannons.
Having a good observer spread to know where his mutas are coming in can be very helpful.
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On July 29 2012 18:23 YesEvil wrote:
Going phoenixes against Mutas is good, I have trouble knowing what they are going off scouting information. If they go a mass Roach style, it does prove troublesome. By base build against zerg is FFE into robo, a few immortals then collo tech. Once im getting collo tech I take a third since immortal/sentry is enough to hold roach/ling combos. But when I see mutas, blink stalker is never enough. They just play around harassing, making it hard to expand safely due to constant harassment. When they get a mass of mutas they roll through a stalker ball. So all the gas you have been getting goes straight into stalkers.
What are the early signs of muta tech? How do I get that information? Timings? (e.g. in PvP a if you check at 5 minutes and they have unit/s at their base it ISN'T a 4 gate.
Taking all gasses and building lings is usually a telltale sign. Blink stalkers and a few (a few, not a ton) cannons are good for holding off the harass, but you need HTs with storm if they go for a full-on muta/ling push.
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What do you do against sky Terran? I played this game, both masters and he went sky Terran. I know how to handle double tech lab starport, and I got 2 stargates (scouted it slightly late so decided 2 sgs was neccesary) the problem I mainly had was ravens, wtf do you do when they have a handful of ravens and spam pdds all over? Should I try to feedback the ravens? What do you do? Also when you respond stargate they add in Vikings which seems to bring about another problem, Vikings and ravens basically make observers disappear making banshees worth their weight in plutonium. How are you supposed to play vs sky Terran? My only thought are once I identify sky Terran as the build to play very aggressive and pressure early on to attempt to stop the Terran from snowballing his 4 banshees into 20000 Vikings/ravens/banshees/bc.
The only other thought is to try for ms and archon toilet
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On July 30 2012 03:35 KingLumps wrote:
What do you do against sky Terran? I played this game, both masters and he went sky Terran. I know how to handle double tech lab starport, and I got 2 stargates (scouted it slightly late so decided 2 sgs was neccesary) the problem I mainly had was ravens, wtf do you do when they have a handful of ravens and spam pdds all over? Should I try to feedback the ravens? What do you do? Also when you respond stargate they add in Vikings which seems to bring about another problem, Vikings and ravens basically make observers disappear making banshees worth their weight in plutonium. How are you supposed to play vs sky Terran? My only thought are once I identify sky Terran as the build to play very aggressive and pressure early on to attempt to stop the Terran from snowballing his 4 banshees into 20000 Vikings/ravens/banshees/bc.
The only other thought is to try for ms and archon toilet
Templars are the best choice, you need the combination of feedback and storm, Feedback as many units as possible, and always have 3 obs around, you could even consider observer speed to help. Also if your obs die you can use storm still do damage and stop your opponent from just running over you.You said you went into your own stargates to counter which is sort of a waste. Once they get vikings all your air units are useless since their making vikings like 4-8 at a time.
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On July 30 2012 04:01 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 03:35 KingLumps wrote:
What do you do against sky Terran? I played this game, both masters and he went sky Terran. I know how to handle double tech lab starport, and I got 2 stargates (scouted it slightly late so decided 2 sgs was neccesary) the problem I mainly had was ravens, wtf do you do when they have a handful of ravens and spam pdds all over? Should I try to feedback the ravens? What do you do? Also when you respond stargate they add in Vikings which seems to bring about another problem, Vikings and ravens basically make observers disappear making banshees worth their weight in plutonium. How are you supposed to play vs sky Terran? My only thought are once I identify sky Terran as the build to play very aggressive and pressure early on to attempt to stop the Terran from snowballing his 4 banshees into 20000 Vikings/ravens/banshees/bc.
The only other thought is to try for ms and archon toilet
Templars are the best choice, you need the combination of feedback and storm, Feedback as many units as possible, and always have 3 obs around, you could even consider observer speed to help. Also if your obs die you can use storm still do damage and stop your opponent from just running over you.You said you went into your own stargates to counter which is sort of a waste. Once they get vikings all your air units are useless since their making vikings like 4-8 at a time.
+1. High templars with storm and blink stalkers are the only combo that works really. Stargate isn't a complete waste though, as a mothership to vortex half their army helps A LOT if you manage to pull it off.
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Im top 8 diamond and PvT is my worst match up. Not so much that I lose a lot, but more that I dont know what to do in Pvt and I always seem to not have enough. I open with the Sase 1 gate expo into 3 gate pressure build and with that, I usually win about 20% of the time. If the pressure fails, I go back home and go for a 3 colossi push and if that fails, I dont know what to do. I take a third behind the colossi push but it seems that I always die in the tranistion between colossus and templar tech.
Any tips? PvT is so frustrating
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What is the normal second gas timing on a 1 gate FE going gate robo gate gate as my opener?
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On July 30 2012 04:33 eGengar wrote:
Im top 8 diamond and PvT is my worst match up. Not so much that I lose a lot, but more that I dont know what to do in Pvt and I always seem to not have enough. I open with the Sase 1 gate expo into 3 gate pressure build and with that, I usually win about 20% of the time. If the pressure fails, I go back home and go for a 3 colossi push and if that fails, I dont know what to do. I take a third behind the colossi push but it seems that I always die in the tranistion between colossus and templar tech.
Any tips? PvT is so frustrating
Try to aim for a 3rd earlier. I often take my 3rd during the pressure time you describe. Even if my attack isn't successful in doing much damage, or if I see to much stuff at his front and don't engage at all, I will try my best to back-off and preserve as many units as I can while getting that 3rd up early. The 3rd is what gives you the extra oomph to really get ahead in tech without skimping on the raw power of many Gateways. It helps a lot if you can manage this as soon as possible.
Another thing you might consider is whether it's better to go directly for Templar instead of Colossus. In my opinion the Templar path feels a little smoother than Colossus.
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I have no idea what do to in PvP
Gold toss here, my go to opener in PvP is 2 gate 3 stalker FE. Using this build I can easily handle 4 gates or greedy openings by the other guy but I don't know how to go forward. I will expand and go up to robo tech, get double robo colossus, grab a third at some indefinite time that I'm not sure is safe, get upgrades, and turtle till 200/200. Then an engagement will finally happen and if I get unlucky with position I'm shafted. It sucks. It's extremely passive and boring.
Look at all these links: these are a few of the many comprehensive guides to playing standard PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94968,
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549,
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887
and even more.
Where are the similar guides for PvP? Beyond guides to openings, I really don't have any direction on how to go forward. My main problem is that I don't know how to get an advantage in PvP. Every game, both my opponent and I will go for the same heavy colossus build. Both of us are too scared to move out because it's so risky. I don't know how to harass, how to poke, how to take out expansions without getting my army in a dangerous position.
So if any of you could link to a PvP guide that would really be appreciated.
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On July 30 2012 03:35 KingLumps wrote:
What do you do against sky Terran? I played this game, both masters and he went sky Terran. I know how to handle double tech lab starport, and I got 2 stargates (scouted it slightly late so decided 2 sgs was neccesary) the problem I mainly had was ravens, wtf do you do when they have a handful of ravens and spam pdds all over? Should I try to feedback the ravens? What do you do? Also when you respond stargate they add in Vikings which seems to bring about another problem, Vikings and ravens basically make observers disappear making banshees worth their weight in plutonium. How are you supposed to play vs sky Terran? My only thought are once I identify sky Terran as the build to play very aggressive and pressure early on to attempt to stop the Terran from snowballing his 4 banshees into 20000 Vikings/ravens/banshees/bc.
The only other thought is to try for ms and archon toilet
You should build your own air units. Stalkers are a soft counter to Banshees; the hard counter is Phoenixes. If you see a really heavy air commitment, get a couple Stargates, get a Fleet Beacon, and transition into air with +weapons. Templar obviously help tremendously, but there's also something to be said for building the right units to counter your opponent's composition.
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On July 30 2012 06:07 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 03:35 KingLumps wrote:
What do you do against sky Terran? I played this game, both masters and he went sky Terran. I know how to handle double tech lab starport, and I got 2 stargates (scouted it slightly late so decided 2 sgs was neccesary) the problem I mainly had was ravens, wtf do you do when they have a handful of ravens and spam pdds all over? Should I try to feedback the ravens? What do you do? Also when you respond stargate they add in Vikings which seems to bring about another problem, Vikings and ravens basically make observers disappear making banshees worth their weight in plutonium. How are you supposed to play vs sky Terran? My only thought are once I identify sky Terran as the build to play very aggressive and pressure early on to attempt to stop the Terran from snowballing his 4 banshees into 20000 Vikings/ravens/banshees/bc.
The only other thought is to try for ms and archon toilet
You should build your own air units. Stalkers are a soft counter to Banshees; the hard counter is Phoenixes. If you see a really heavy air commitment, get a couple Stargates, get a Fleet Beacon, and transition into air with +weapons. Templar obviously help tremendously, but there's also something to be said for building the right units to counter your opponent's composition.
Only in the early-mid game will phoenix work. PDD affects phoenix and if you actually read the post you would see why going stargate won't work - sky terran = vikings.
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On July 30 2012 06:07 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 03:35 KingLumps wrote:
What do you do against sky Terran? I played this game, both masters and he went sky Terran. I know how to handle double tech lab starport, and I got 2 stargates (scouted it slightly late so decided 2 sgs was neccesary) the problem I mainly had was ravens, wtf do you do when they have a handful of ravens and spam pdds all over? Should I try to feedback the ravens? What do you do? Also when you respond stargate they add in Vikings which seems to bring about another problem, Vikings and ravens basically make observers disappear making banshees worth their weight in plutonium. How are you supposed to play vs sky Terran? My only thought are once I identify sky Terran as the build to play very aggressive and pressure early on to attempt to stop the Terran from snowballing his 4 banshees into 20000 Vikings/ravens/banshees/bc.
The only other thought is to try for ms and archon toilet
You should build your own air units. Stalkers are a soft counter to Banshees; the hard counter is Phoenixes. If you see a really heavy air commitment, get a couple Stargates, get a Fleet Beacon, and transition into air with +weapons. Templar obviously help tremendously, but there's also something to be said for building the right units to counter your opponent's composition.
Sorry but I don't think this is good advice. A handful of phoenixes are certainly helpful against banshees. However, if you invest so heavily into air (multiple stargates, fleet beacon, upgrades etc) a terran can easily transition into any number of things like bio, thors, or battlecruisers in which case your phoenix fleet will be made next to useless. Even in a pure air war, viking/bc/raven will do quite well vs phoenix/vr/carrier.
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EPT
