On July 26 2012 11:55 etherealfall wrote: You move a probe there to prevent building of anything. No one really scouts before gateway so if someone does, suspect cheese.
I see people pylon scout quite a lot when they're playing a standard game at master level. I have no idea why, and it seems pretty pointless to me, but people do it and u can never really be sure. I think putting ur pylon in that spot would be the best way to deal with that cannon rush on daybreak. It's kinda like the old xelnaga caverns cannon rush, if u let it get up, it gets very difficult to win.
Yeah same, especially on two player maps. They don't even check for proxies, just send their 9th probe straight to my base. In that case i think you are fine if one of your probes isn't mining, since one if his hasn't been mining for a longer period of time.
On July 26 2012 11:55 etherealfall wrote: You move a probe there to prevent building of anything. No one really scouts before gateway so if someone does, suspect cheese.
I see people pylon scout quite a lot when they're playing a standard game at master level. I have no idea why, and it seems pretty pointless to me, but people do it and u can never really be sure. I think putting ur pylon in that spot would be the best way to deal with that cannon rush on daybreak. It's kinda like the old xelnaga caverns cannon rush, if u let it get up, it gets very difficult to win.
Yeah same, especially on two player maps. They don't even check for proxies, just send their 9th probe straight to my base. In that case i think you are fine if one of your probes isn't mining, since one if his hasn't been mining for a longer period of time.
Most players pylon scout on 9 because ladder is filled with so much cheese. Even though gateway scouting is still viable, considering a lot of Blizzard's maps have 4 different spawn locations, sometimes you'll get the last scout and basically be in an auto loss if you're getting cheesed.
I personally gateway scout and even no scout in tournaments and customs, but ladder still pylon scout to try and deny cheese.
On July 26 2012 11:18 ZeromuS wrote: Any tips on dealing with the behind mineral line Cannon rush on daybreak? lost to it 3 times today. It feels like if the pylons get up I lose :x
I was also losing to this for a while (mid masters NA) -- then one time I just decided not to freak out and came up with a decent solution.
Always take your first gas as the one that can't be hit by the 2 pylon cannon rush (right gas on the bottom spawn, left on the top). Make sure your gateway isn't in range of that spot either. If he drops the pylons and you can't get your probes in time to block (if they do it right then you usually won't be able to) then just keep mining and chrono boost a stalker out. Once the cannons finish just start long distance mining from the natural (you should still be mining gas and maybe 1 or 2 mineral patches in your main). Get 2-3 stalkers and you can dps the pylons down from the sides before the nexus dies. from there you can try to counter him but he has probably walled off with cannons so just expand and get a robo + more gates. You shouldn't have lost any probes so you will be quite far ahead.
On July 26 2012 11:18 ZeromuS wrote: Any tips on dealing with the behind mineral line Cannon rush on daybreak? lost to it 3 times today. It feels like if the pylons get up I lose :x
I was also losing to this for a while (mid masters NA) -- then one time I just decided not to freak out and came up with a decent solution.
Always take your first gas as the one that can't be hit by the 2 pylon cannon rush (right gas on the bottom spawn, left on the top). Make sure your gateway isn't in range of that spot either. If he drops the pylons and you can't get your probes in time to block (if they do it right then you usually won't be able to) then just keep mining and chrono boost a stalker out. Once the cannons finish just start long distance mining from the natural (you should still be mining gas and maybe 1 or 2 mineral patches in your main). Get 2-3 stalkers and you can dps the pylons down from the sides before the nexus dies. from there you can try to counter him but he has probably walled off with cannons so just expand and get a robo + more gates. You shouldn't have lost any probes so you will be quite far ahead.
That works? what if they put more cannons down with a 2nd probe in the mineral line itself?
It seems to me like that relies on them sending one probe and only building one maybe 2 cannons in the small gap on Day break
I'm just wondering what is the better response after beating the 2 rax push from terran. (reactor and tec lab one). Is it best to go for an immortal push, collosus, templar, or quick 3rd. I never know what to do after I beat it and I feel like a lose because I don't do the right follow up.
On July 27 2012 00:05 -MoOsE- wrote: I'm just wondering what is the better response after beating the 2 rax push from terran. (reactor and tec lab one). Is it best to go for an immortal push, collosus, templar, or quick 3rd. I never know what to do after I beat it and I feel like a lose because I don't do the right follow up.
I think you have a few options.
If you go for the immortal push, you should get a Warp Prism and use a multi-pronged attack. He's going to be low on units because you killed off a bunch of them when he attacked, so drops are always good for those low unit situations. If he pulls all his stuff to the front, you can do damage in the back. If he puts stuff in the back, you can break the front or kill a bunch of SCVs there and go home.
If you decide to go for the Colossus push, that one is usually strong because his tech is probably delayed. However, if he sets up spreads or you hit too late, it can be bad news bears. I generally like the 2 Colossus with range push a lot when I crush an attack and want to counterattack in PvT, since Colossus is my go-to tech path for 2base in the match-up. So long as you have good positioning, it's a solid way to at least trade favorably and then back off with your Colossi and sentries (if you don't out-right break your opponent).
I think getting a fast third is map-dependant. If he moves out a few minutes later, during the drop timing, do you have stuff to defend everywhere? If not, then do you have a Parting-style big attack to keep him in his base? Either have a defense ready or use an attack as defense.
You could also just play pretty standard and tech at home, then take a normal third timing. The 2rax isn't exactly the most economical build in the world, so if you beat it down and keep your expo without losing probes, you're ahead. Taking a third safely is still a good call. I think it's a good plan to scout and check how fast he's planning to expand and what kinds of corners he's cutting to do so--if you sense weakness, go attack. If you see him playing more cautiously because he's aware of potential attacks, you should do something more designed to benefit you over time.
1. So, I came to this conclusion today: In PvT and PvZ, your main goal for a macro focused game is to have 3 bases with full saturation, 6-8+ gateways, and access to both templar and colossus tech by 16:00. It's a simple idea, but I feel think it's a pretty comprehensive goal. Is this correct?
2. In PvP, do you stop probe production at 22 probes before you expand? And in general, do you cut probes unless you have a specific, safe expansion timing? For example, if I open with stargate tech and have a delayed expansion, I generally don't have enough minerals to make pheonixes, make probes, make occasional gateway units, AND get an expansion; should I be cutting probes at a certain point and doing things a little more one-at-a-timish?
1. In PvZ you only need one of the two, and then you should make your way to mothership tech (+eventual archons) to counter broodlords. In PvT yeah i guess so.
2. I cut probes at around 30ish whenever i fast expand until i confirm my opponent isn't one basing. If i open stargate i only cut probes if my opponent is gearing up for a 1base blink timing and i need to get an immortal out asap. Specifically for stargate, you can afford to cut gateway units in favour of immortals when you need to defend, and cut phoenixes at 4-5 unless you really need something that either shoots colossi, shoots other air units, or you need to do lots of econ damage. I have seen lots of people go up to 8 or so phoenixes against fast expand builds for that reason.
On July 27 2012 06:11 Teoita wrote: 1. In PvZ you only need one of the two, and then you should make your way to mothership tech (+eventual archons) to counter broodlords. In PvT yeah i guess so.
Also I think it's worth mentioning that there's really no reason not to get a few more gates. Even if we all strive for perfect macro...since protoss is so heavily gas-dependent I still see pro-gamers regularly banking minerals. Those could be gates. Adding cannons normally doesn't do much at this point, because if you really needed more cannons then you're probably dead anyways.
On July 26 2012 11:55 etherealfall wrote: You move a probe there to prevent building of anything. No one really scouts before gateway so if someone does, suspect cheese.
I see people pylon scout quite a lot when they're playing a standard game at master level. I have no idea why, and it seems pretty pointless to me, but people do it and u can never really be sure. I think putting ur pylon in that spot would be the best way to deal with that cannon rush on daybreak. It's kinda like the old xelnaga caverns cannon rush, if u let it get up, it gets very difficult to win.
Yeah same, especially on two player maps. They don't even check for proxies, just send their 9th probe straight to my base. In that case i think you are fine if one of your probes isn't mining, since one if his hasn't been mining for a longer period of time.
Most players pylon scout on 9 because ladder is filled with so much cheese. Even though gateway scouting is still viable, considering a lot of Blizzard's maps have 4 different spawn locations, sometimes you'll get the last scout and basically be in an auto loss if you're getting cheesed.
I personally gateway scout and even no scout in tournaments and customs, but ladder still pylon scout to try and deny cheese.
I just don't feel it's worth it though. You can scout common proxy locations and cannon rush locations and often be okay against them. And if they are just playing standard, u are really just behind for no reason. Not to mention it completely cuts the amounts of builds u can use, a lot of the Startale double gas builds with different amount of workers on each can't even work with a gateway scout, so there is no way they can work with a pylon scout.
In PvT, I've been getting mauled by Terran's Marauder push. It usually comes around when I finish my Nexus from a 1Gate F.E. By the time the strike force reaches my natural, I have 3 functional Warpgates and 1 Zealot, 1 Sentry, and 1 Stalker. Normally, I warp in 3 more Zealots and attempt to surround him. However, the Conc. shells allow him to kite all of my units. I feel like warping in Stalkers would only hurt me because Marauders can blast through them. Should I put up a Robo instead of the third warp gate and Chrono out an Immortal instead?
As I've been progressing up the ladder, I realized that more people are becoming aggressive in PvP with a Warp Prism loaded with two Immortals, or 2 Zealots/2 Sentries. It's becoming increasingly hard to fend off the harass. I first thought of putting down a Forge and 2 Cannons behind my mineral line, but decided against it because: 1. Immortals just destroy cannons, 2. The 300~450 minerals can be invested in another Robo or a Colossus. How do you guys respond to such pressure?
When should I get a Forge in PvP? I always forget to get it in this matchup due to the early game (looking to defend 4gate, or any early aggression), then rushing it in the mid-late game once I realize my opponent has +1 weapons already. I thought about getting it once I get double robo, but is that too delayed?
EDIT: sorry sorry one more thing - What's the advantage of opening with a Gate/Core instead of a Forge F.E? I've never done anything but Forge F.E so I'm very unfamiliar to this opening. I saw Oz do it against Stephano and it looked quite interesting.
On July 27 2012 10:16 vizi wrote: Guys, I need help once again
In PvT, I've been getting mauled by Terran's Marauder push. It usually comes around when I finish my Nexus from a 1Gate F.E. By the time the strike force reaches my natural, I have 3 functional Warpgates and 1 Zealot, 1 Sentry, and 1 Stalker. Normally, I warp in 3 more Zealots and attempt to surround him. However, the Conc. shells allow him to kite all of my units. I feel like warping in Stalkers would only hurt me because Marauders can blast through them. Should I put up a Robo instead of the third warp gate and Chrono out an Immortal instead?
I've had some experience against this kind of stuff with nexus first builds, etc. You need stalkers ASAP. Once you have the stalkers, you need to just push with zealot/probes. As long as the zealot/probe wall is chasing him, he is forced into kiting while the stalkers do the real damage. I would suggest warping in 2 additional stalkers/1 zealot. It's okay to lose some probes here because you fast expanded and you have the ability to catch up in the worker count. Also, probes are great against marauders, ironically.
The advantage of Gate/Core vs FFE is basically a trade-off between aggression or implied aggression versus economy. It usually prevents Z from taking an auto gasless 3rd before ~5.00. There has been quite a lot of debate, recently, regarding the pros and cons of these builds - and that's not including the Yuffie variant which is basically gate/nexus.
There have been a few threads on the pros and cons of gate/core vs ffe. Search and you should be able to find it. If you are keen on gate/core or want to try it out, hardly no-one does the old 3 gate sentry expo but are experimenting with 1 and 2 gate variants. Search for Nony's 2 gate expo or Abstract's 1 gate expo, have a read and have a go. You might also want to have a read of the old 3 gate sentry expo thread which, while probably defunct, does detail some of the thinking behind gate/core expands (i.e. "sharking" the Zerg etc). Good luck!
In PvT, I've been getting mauled by Terran's Marauder push. It usually comes around when I finish my Nexus from a 1Gate F.E. By the time the strike force reaches my natural, I have 3 functional Warpgates and 1 Zealot, 1 Sentry, and 1 Stalker. Normally, I warp in 3 more Zealots and attempt to surround him. However, the Conc. shells allow him to kite all of my units. I feel like warping in Stalkers would only hurt me because Marauders can blast through them. Should I put up a Robo instead of the third warp gate and Chrono out an Immortal instead?
If you see someone going for 1 base play, particularly if you manage to scout Marauders, you should put more emphasis into pumping units early. You should have more than 3 units by the time your Nexus completes...
This day9 video demonstrates a solid opening for PvT:
By 6:00 when Warpgate completes you can have 8 units on the battlefield (3 zealots, 3 senries, 2 stalkers) while maintaining a fluid 1GateFE build. Most of the time you don't need that much, but it's good to at least be aware of what your Gateway is doing before Warpgate finishes. Some early pushes are designed to hit you before 6:00 and Warpgate, but you should still be ok if you're making units and have a couple Sentries among them.
Your best bet at defending early pushes like these is to use Sentries. I prefer a combination of Zealots and Sentries while engaging at the ramp to my natural. If there is no ramp, you can engage in open field too but it's a little tougher and you need to have more accurate micro. Essentially, engage with your Zealots and plant a couple FF behind his Marauders. They cannot kite away when FF are preventing their retreat and Zealots are pinning them in from the other side. Zealots are typically better than Stalkers against early bio aggression if the bio are unable to retreat due to FF.
When should I get a Forge in PvP? I always forget to get it in this matchup due to the early game (looking to defend 4gate, or any early aggression), then rushing it in the mid-late game once I realize my opponent has +1 weapons already. I thought about getting it once I get double robo, but is that too delayed?
It is commonplace when transitioning to Colossus production off 2+ bases to plant a 2nd Robo, Robo Bay, and Forge all at the same time. Research attack upgrades once the Forge is done because it is much stronger than armor upgrades. Armor upgrades are not bad, but keep in mind resources are pretty tight with Chronos on double Robo-Colossus. Oftentimes extra gas is better spent on Archons which provide a tremendous advantage in Colossus wars, not to mention Archons don't benefit from Armor upgrades.
Hi guys I am a new protoss player sitting in bronze league at the moment and I am stuck there And It is because my macro sucks, I know it and so would you if i had some replays to show you all. I did try improve it by picking 1 BO and sticking to it (I chose FFE into +2 Blink stalker as i really liked it) but it was too hit or miss most of the time for me
I have searched out as much info as I can for improving macro but for protoss there isn't alot I can find i Watched filter's video for terran where he took a very simple idea (just make marines, expand at a set time and don't stop SCV's) and used that to help you learn, Now I might be blind but is it possible for Toss to do the same thing, In taking an expansion at a set time only making 1 unit type for a whole game and still being able to win and accurately praticing macro?
The other thing I am confused by is the opening he used seemed pretty good for all matchups but in ladder matches if I try the same opening and strat in all games I just die badly almost half of the time.
So What I am asking from you are the following couple of questions
a) What are 3 different builds (1 per race) that are fairly simple to use that will allow me to practice my macro properly and still put me on a good foot to win the majority of games.
b) What should I be aiming for before going to attack my opponent as i never really know what I should have etc and usually try and either win or lose
c) How many gates is too many? Late game I usually end up with 15-20 gates if its gone long and Sometimes I feel like its too many as yes it helps me reinforce quicker but after 1 round of warp in's i cant do another one fully cause i cant get the minerals back quickly enough.
Any help from all of you would be great if you want some replays I can upload when I am not busy tomorrow
On July 27 2012 20:49 nereme wrote: Hi guys I am a new protoss player sitting in bronze league at the moment and I am stuck there And It is because my macro sucks, I know it and so would you if i had some replays to show you all. I did try improve it by picking 1 BO and sticking to it (I chose FFE into +2 Blink stalker as i really liked it) but it was too hit or miss most of the time for me
I have searched out as much info as I can for improving macro but for protoss there isn't alot I can find i Watched filter's video for terran where he took a very simple idea (just make marines, expand at a set time and don't stop SCV's) and used that to help you learn, Now I might be blind but is it possible for Toss to do the same thing, In taking an expansion at a set time only making 1 unit type for a whole game and still being able to win and accurately praticing macro?
The other thing I am confused by is the opening he used seemed pretty good for all matchups but in ladder matches if I try the same opening and strat in all games I just die badly almost half of the time.
So What I am asking from you are the following couple of questions
a) What are 3 different builds (1 per race) that are fairly simple to use that will allow me to practice my macro properly and still put me on a good foot to win the majority of games.
b) What should I be aiming for before going to attack my opponent as i never really know what I should have etc and usually try and either win or lose
c) How many gates is too many? Late game I usually end up with 15-20 gates if its gone long and Sometimes I feel like its too many as yes it helps me reinforce quicker but after 1 round of warp in's i cant do another one fully cause i cant get the minerals back quickly enough.
Any help from all of you would be great if you want some replays I can upload when I am not busy tomorrow
To win a lot of games in bronze while practicing macro, just do this:
Get three gates and two assimilators, constantly probes and warp in stalkers. When you have 16 probes on minerals (2 lines when selected), expand. Take 2 assimilators on the expansion, get 4 more gates and 2 forges. Do double upgrades while building probes and stalkers and upgrading and expanding when you reach saturation. When you hit 200/200 attack. You'll win most games as long as you always build probes, don't miss warp cycles and get upgrades.
EPT
thanks guys 
