EPTMy gut is telling me 6:30-7:00 is the earliest i should be worried about a dt rush. But by then i'd have probabaly scouted the double gas or something suspicious. Is this correct or is it earlier?
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Archybaldie
United Kingdom818 Posts
My gut is telling me 6:30-7:00 is the earliest i should be worried about a dt rush. But by then i'd have probabaly scouted the double gas or something suspicious. Is this correct or is it earlier? | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:41 Archybaldie wrote: When's the earliest i should be worried about dt's in pvp? My gut is telling me 6:30-7:00 is the earliest i should be worried about a dt rush. But by then i'd have probabaly scouted the double gas or something suspicious. Is this correct or is it earlier? That's about correct, it might even be a bit too early if you don't see a sick fast second gas (straight after cyber core, or sometimes when people are insane before the core) with your scouting probe. | ||
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IROverRated
United Kingdom5 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:04 Teoita wrote: A replay would be nice (upload them on drop.sc), but generally if zerg does some sort of roach-heavy build, your army eventually will be as cost efficient as his in the long run unless his economy is much better (hence the saying, zerg should always be one base ahead of protoss). With that in mind, once you hold off roach aggression if you have as many bases as him you can just macro for like 3 minutes and counter attack to win. Especially in lower leagues, zergs tend to have very very late third bases so that would be a reasonable plan. Thanks Teoita, I'll upload the reply tonight and add it to this thread later. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:41 Archybaldie wrote: When's the earliest i should be worried about dt's in pvp? My gut is telling me 6:30-7:00 is the earliest i should be worried about a dt rush. But by then i'd have probabaly scouted the double gas or something suspicious. Is this correct or is it earlier? 7:00 is the realistic earliest. I can get 3dts at 6:50/7:00 minutes if I 10 gate, 12 gas, 15 core, 17 gas. At 150 gas drop TC, then at 100% TC drop shrine and 2 more gates. Drop Proxy pylon and warpin. If you see zealots early, and then see sentries, just know that for every sentry they make, they will be down 1 DT. Therefore, if you see 3 sentries, you can rule out fast DTs. That being said, I think there is more reason than any to always get a robo facility as your tech path in PvP, regardless of what opener you use. P units counter each other hard but with gates and a robo you are as best prepared as you can be, especially with obs in their base as early as possible in game. Typically, if you don't see a 4gate incoming, there's no reason to not throw down a robo and get an obs. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On June 15 2012 12:53 Kovaz wrote: What's a good build to get templar first in PvT? I generally go for: standard 1gate expand into 3gate robo get 4 gases asap add on a forge and TC get +1 armor and charge templar archives as gas allows add on 1 or 2 gates all gas to templar and rest of production to zealots take a third as storm finishes, and I usually have around 4 templar with energy for storm by then. However, I never feel like I have enough stuff to defend midgame pushes, even if I land my storms. I really want to learn how to use templar as my main AoE, since even if it's not optimal it will improve me as a player who has always relied on colossi. So, questions: 1) Is templar first a legitimate style that can work? 2) Should I be playing the passive game, trying to establish a third? Or should I be more aggressive? 3) Is the build I'm using optimal or are there better ones? I will only answer 1 and 2 since 3 is subjective and opinion is most likely based in preference. 1) It is a legitimate style that can work. Like anything though you have to know how to do it. If you go templar, for example, you will be gateway heavy so you need ground upgrades. You will most likely find when going Templar first that sometimes you utterly crush your opponent, and sometimes you just flat out lose. The thing with templar vs colossus is that you are much more volatile with templar. Templar cannot destroy a base that easily, since your spells don't work on bunkers, and you will usually have to sacrifice a few units to get in range of the bunkers to storm adjacent units. You can do good damage though but using Templar first is more dangerous than colossus first. With colossus you usually have more sentries so you can control engagements more, and colossus are more durable than templar (not to mention are never unable to deal damage) . With templar you are relying on good storms and your opponent not baiting storms or not reacting to them well, especially early on when you only have 3-4 templar. 2) In my opinion, templar first is more defensive in nature because of the things above. They are good vs drop harass if you're good at watching the minimap. Again, more volatile since if you didn't catch a drop in time you will be in a really bad spot. Establishing a third is probably the best path to take since colossi are more suited for pushing and have a chance of winning right there. In the end, you need to make sure your transition to colossus is crisp. You will need both when T gets ghosts. | ||
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hersimp
Norway40 Posts
Recently I've been having problems with mutalisks on certain maps. (Mostly where the third is abit away from my 2 other bases) I won this game, but I feel it was because of his mistakes and not my good play. If I scout the mutas in time, I dont really have BIG problems with dealing the harass I feel. It's the further transitions, and in general what to do while facing that tactic, like taking a third and moving out of my base. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/197947/d So here's my own thoughts (please give me corrections on this): -I scouted no fast third, so knew something was up. I didnt check the other locations for a possible base, but since he build more lings than normal I got suspicious. -I saw the mutas with a zealot scout, so then i knew what he was doing "Positive things" -Felt I reacted properly with blink quite shortly after -Decided to go DTs to be able to at least do some harass, plus i could make archons. (ended up sniping his third) -Ok army splits eventually while defending -Kept on with decent upgrades -Didnt lose a crucial amount of workers while defending in my base "Negative things" -Built too many workers for 2base (was planning to take a third, but obviously ended up not  )-Didnt scout enough after I first spotted he went mutas -A couple of bad supply blocks -When i was planning to push out, i lost a ton of workers since I was way out of position for the mutas that countered my main. -I feel that my building placements slowed my defense abit, since it takes forever to move around them. What could i have done better here? Not a very big problem i feel, but it could have given me better blinks with more room "Questions / Problems" I feel I can never move out of my base while facing this play. I was planning for awhile to take a third. I did a couple of attempts that was denied by a single ling (lol), but abit after i changed my mind since i felt it was too hard dealing with attacks at 3 places at once. When would it be "safe" for me to take a third? How do i defend that, since i already need my units in main/nat? If on 2 bases when should i attack (wich i feel i cant)? In general i'm wondering when my advantage in the game is, and what to look for. Sorry this was a long post, but it's abit frustrating to be so lost at this  Hope someone have some good advices to give. Thanks in advance | ||
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Random_Guy09
Canada1010 Posts
On June 16 2012 03:04 tehemperorer wrote: 7:00 is the realistic earliest. I can get 3dts at 6:50/7:00 minutes if I 10 gate, 12 gas, 15 core, 17 gas. At 150 gas drop TC, then at 100% TC drop shrine and 2 more gates. Drop Proxy pylon and warpin. If you see zealots early, and then see sentries, just know that for every sentry they make, they will be down 1 DT. Therefore, if you see 3 sentries, you can rule out fast DTs. That being said, I think there is more reason than any to always get a robo facility as your tech path in PvP, regardless of what opener you use. P units counter each other hard but with gates and a robo you are as best prepared as you can be, especially with obs in their base as early as possible in game. Typically, if you don't see a 4gate incoming, there's no reason to not throw down a robo and get an obs. Funny why not go 3 gate robo against a 4gate? It's practically a win if you keep the ramp ff'd until you get immortal out the it's like free win | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 16 2012 09:59 Random_Guy09 wrote: Funny why not go 3 gate robo against a 4gate? It's practically a win if you keep the ramp ff'd until you get immortal out the it's like free win It depends on the build. You can hold a 4gate while teching, but it needs to be a specific, well thought build (specifically see this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117). You can't just randomly make 3 gates and a robo and say "ok this stops a 4gate and is also decent if he's teching or expanding instead". | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
Also, how good is gas steal for PvT/PvZ? | ||
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Xaldarian
Netherlands65 Posts
On June 17 2012 01:25 Sated wrote: DT Expand is a good reason not to throw down a Robotics Facility and get an Observer. It also auto-defeats a 4gate if you do it right =P Quoted for truth. I open up with dts every pvp and its no bo loss vs robo openings. Dts can still do sick damage even when there is detection. have dts at several spots, force multiple observers and use proxy pylons and a chargelot dt or archon army to give him hell in the midgame. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:00 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: In PvT if Terran is going 1-1-1, what time do they typically make some sort of push, and what should I get to stop it? Also, how good is gas steal for PvT/PvZ? Depends on the variation. Most maps they'll arrive at 9:00-9:30. They'll push out at around 8:00-8:30. What you get to stop it is up to you. Most prefer to cboost immortals with stalkers/zealots. Regardless of what you get to stop it, holding watch towers and knowing it's moving out is key. You have to get out on the map to slow it down as far away from your base as possible. PvT it can be a good way to scout depending on what they bring out to kill it. If they need the 2nd gas on a 1 base build they'll reveal their units and it's pretty indicative of what kind of opening they're going to use. It used to be really popular to religiously gas steal PvT but it fell out of favor as factory builds fell off. If you get all-inned a lot its a pretty good way to be sure before an obs arrives to confirm. PvZ I've never seen it before and I'm assuming it'd be useless with how late zergs get their gas on 6+ geysers. | ||
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Darthsanta13
United States564 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:00 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: In PvT if Terran is going 1-1-1, what time do they typically make some sort of push, and what should I get to stop it? Also, how good is gas steal for PvT/PvZ? I'll let someone more well-versed in that build than me talk about the 1-1-1, as I have trouble with it myself and don't know the exact specifics, but this guide is very helpful and tells you pretty much everything you need to know about stopping it. Gas steal is situational at best in PvT and I would probably never do it in PvZ. The reason being that PvT 2 gas openers are pretty rare so it's probably not worth the risk. In PvZ, 1 base 2 gas openings are even more rare, to the point where I can't remember ever facing one, although I'm sure they exist. But in PvZ expanding as Zerg before you take both gasses is so standard that even if you stole a gas they would have the gasses at their natural or even their third to take before it really became a problem. I think the only time I've ever stolen gas from a Terran was when he built a rax right next to the gas and I wanted to see what expansion he was putting on the rax. But even then that was just for scouting info and I cancelled the gas before it finished. The reason gas steal is so useful in PvP is that the majority of builds take a fairly early second gas so the investment is almost never a waste, as you'll either delay whatever tech he was going into, or force him to switch to a different build entirely, which you can then prepare for. This is generally not the case for the other races as they focus on builds that don't utilize all of the gas possible until later on. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:17 Sated wrote: Gas steal is okay in PvT if you scout them taking their first gas. Keep track of what is killing your Assimilator. If more than 2 Marines end up shooting at it then they're probably not building an add-on on their first Barracks = possible Factory. I think. I don't usually gas steal, though. Yeah that's the biggest reason. You can't rule out stuff like cloak or 111 even with a gas steal because 2 marines kill the assimilator fast enough, to the point where the timing on the terran's second gas doesn't change if he was going for a 1base tech opening (the only exceptions that i can think of is cloakless banshee expand or hellion drop, which are both done off a single gas). Generally gas steal in pvt is more for scouting than delaying tech (ala pvp). edit also fuck yes i am now the imbalanced hope of protoss players falling behind in a game. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On June 16 2012 09:05 hersimp wrote: Hi there, Platinum protoss here. I only play against Gold/Plat players myself (in Gold atm) so I dunno how much help I can be. But I'll try to provide my thoughts as a player at a relatively similar level. Couple of nitpicky thoughts on your play as I watch through this replay: - Not entirely sure I like your wall off. Personally I'm ALWAYS inclined to avoid having cannons or pylons as part of my wall. I guess that might not be a big deal but I don't like having banelings shoved down my throat if a Zerg notices the weakness and smells blood. If you never have a problem with it though then I guess it's fine. - Your opponent's opening was full of holes. You were miles ahead on workers at about 6 mins in, he was too focussed on killing that pylon and taking his nat whilst yours was already running. He overmade lings which did nothing, He built only one queen on two hatcheries at first despite having resources. Bluntly you were macroing better here. - Looking at 9:30 where his mutas are just starting to pop...honestly I think your biggest problem handling this at first is due to missing warp-ins. You don't really have enough gateways in my opinion but you're missing warp ins which are even more crucial. You have 3 warp gates available at 9 minutes but you don't start warping until ten minutes. That's a full minute where your gateways are doing absolutely nothing. Instead you put down a robo facility. Which in my opinion is an overcommitment to tech when you've already got a twilight building. - ~10:15 you're researching blink. Again the perfect response, you're pretty much blind-countering...but you've not got enough stalkers. Also you put down a cannon on the left of your main...personally I'd have put it on the right to further protect your mineral line. - 10:30 you get another warp in cycle available. - At 10:40 you're putting down more gateways...but not using your warp ins on the gateways you've already got. Bearing in mind that a stalker only takes 32 seconds to cool down a gateway from. You basically miss an entire warp in cycle here because you don't warp in until 11:00. - 11:31 you get aother cycle free. And you're floating quite a lot of resources now. Given that you've already seen the mutas I'd have personally slapped down the Templar Archives there and then, you can easily afford it, and used the rest to warp in as many stalkers and sentries as I could. - Your opponent is getting third and fourth bases figuring his mutas will keep you in your base. Which is exactly what they're doing. Hence why you really need storms. - I actually don't like your choice of DTs personally. They may have kinda worked for you but they're absurdly easy to shut down and frankly you NEED storms in case he goes mass muta off the back of the handful you've seen (which he eventually does). You could have also probably used a few more observers as soon as you've seen he's going mutas scattered about the approaches to your base to let you know if he's coming. Also you sniped his third but he wasn't really mining from it yet, and those DTs were expensive for you to just lose. - Because you're floating a lot and are supply blocked at about 13:30 you put down a bunch of gateways and a few pylons. I like adding on the gateways but I think you overdid it a bit. Another couple of gateways and some more cannons might have been better. You're on eleven gateways on two bases which is way too much if you're hitting your warp-ins. Eight should be sufficient, nine if you've missed some cycles. 11 is just overkill. - 17:10 you're paying for not getting a Templar Archives because you can't storm his mutas to kill them/chase them away whilst you bring stalkers back so you're really being pulled around and hit hard. - 19:00. He has 30 mutas. You NEED storms here. Also 19:33 your resources lost are equal but he's two bases ahead and you've got like...half his worker count. Fortunately for you he doesn't have enough queens for injects and is floating TONS of minerals. And you don't replace your lost workers. - Random thought shortly after this: Your DTs sniped his third earlier but don't really see to have done anything since then. They're kinda expensive dead weight here. - 20:25 He hillariously misrallied or something with his overlords leaving them all right next to your stalkers and letting you MASSIVELY supply block him, this seems to completely throw off his gameplan. - Engagement about 21:00 went about as well as you could have hoped for. He clumped ALL his mutas and basically suicided them into your archons. And he didn't have enough lings. He was basically dead after losing so many mutas for nothing. - He tries to recover from that but it's not something you can recover from when you're missing so many injects and stuff. Can't get enough mutas or lings to clean up your death march on his base. Into BM at the end because of his own daft fault for clumping so badly. In short honestly think your macro was more efficient than your opponent. But his economy was WAAAY stronger and if he'd been macroing as well as his economy was doing you'd have been dead twice over. I feel I can never move out of my base while facing this play. I was planning for awhile to take a third. I did a couple of attempts that was denied by a single ling (lol), but abit after i changed my mind since i felt it was too hard dealing with attacks at 3 places at once. When would it be "safe" for me to take a third? How do i defend that, since i already need my units in main/nat? If on 2 bases when should i attack (wich i feel i cant)? In general i'm wondering when my advantage in the game is, and what to look for. Sorry this was a long post, but it's abit frustrating to be so lost at this Hope someone have some good advices to give. Thanks in advance You NEED HTs and storm. There is absolutely no way around it. Blink stalkers are great, but you can't spend the entire game just blinking between bases. With care storms let you shut down muta play on this scale because storms murder muta flocks. Couple of cannons and HTs at each base leave them fairly safe. Of course I'm sure someone more experienced is going to come in and tell me I'm all wrong and I'm a scrub or something, heh. But this is just my opinion, do with it as you will..  | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788 | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
I eventually died to a Muta switch (that was a surprise as I was "wtf! how can he afford that!" and a base trade where he spined up. I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at this replay and give me some advice on what I could have done better. 1. I think I may have overmade cannons in my main (2 would have been sufficient given the number of early lings he had out) and probably should not have made a forge and dropped another cannon as I moved out (if I was expecting a run by I should have walled off the ramp). 2. I think I should have also taken a second gas sooner so that I could afford more Stalkers early as I was too Zealot and Sentry heavy and lost too many of these units to roaches in my first engagement. My FF could have been better too and the loss of those sentries hurt but I was surprised by the second wave of his roaches (I was under the mistaken impression that I was in front at that time). The second wave hitting really cost me, I think, and that may have been game there. 3. I should have scouted him better after fending off his initial 7 pool as I had a probe out on the map. 4. My probe production was reasonably OK, I think, for one base and in comparison to him (I kept making probes iirc during the early Ling attack). He only went past me in harvester count when he droned hard after dropping his second (and I guess once I had 30 probes on one base, any return from more workers was minimal in any case). 5. Hiding a probe and making a pylon (perhaps in the Z main while I took it down) for the base race may also have helped but I doubt I would have won in a straight engagement at the end anyway. I was too behind. The replay is here: http://drop.sc/199200 So yeah, confirmation of the above and any extra tips would be nice. These kinds of games are really >_<. Thanks. The irony is that if I had gate expanded as normal I would have rolled him with a second gate at ramp -> delayed 4 gate. | ||
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Random_Guy09
Canada1010 Posts
On June 15 2012 23:57 IROverRated wrote: It is that unfortunately, I did play a game last night and he just mass roached with about 30+ roaches by 12 minutes (I think, not sure) I luckily managed to hold this off however with FF placements, immortals, and my colossi just made it out in time. It's after the first engagement I struggle with mostly because I don't react quick enough to his transitions and i just freeze up. I need to practice against zerg as well because that's my weakest match up (vT or vP I'm ok with) It's just Zerg that's the problem for me. Try doing stargate opener (tip: roaches cant shoot up XD obviously you should know this ) if the zerg is stupid enough you'll force them to over react and build hydra's instead of massing roaches (all depends on what league low league its hydra's higher leagues would just be forcing some spores) then its just lots of +2 attack sentries/stalkers and a sprinkle of colossi to make BBQ zerg out of hydras. Better explained by watching Day[9] Daily #436 where he goes over PvZ from both sides! Hopefully it helps you better understand the MU so you can go crush or BBQ those zergs | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On June 17 2012 14:40 aZealot wrote: Right, so I've finally started learning FFE. Second time through today, I run into a 7 pool. I thought I held it reasonably OK at first by putting a cannon in my mineral line and transitioning into a 4 Gate. However, by the time I moved out, he had a second base down, had droned past my harvester count, and had just started mining off a 3rd. I eventually died to a Muta switch (that was a surprise as I was "wtf! how can he afford that!" and a base trade where he spined up. I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at this replay and give me some advice on what I could have done better. 1. I think I may have overmade cannons in my main (2 would have been sufficient given the number of early lings he had out) and probably should not have made a forge and dropped another cannon as I moved out (if I was expecting a run by I should have walled off the ramp). 2. I think I should have also taken a second gas sooner so that I could afford more Stalkers early as I was too Zealot and Sentry heavy and lost too many of these units to roaches in my first engagement. My FF could have been better too and the loss of those sentries hurt but I was surprised by the second wave of his roaches (I was under the mistaken impression that I was in front at that time). The second wave hitting really cost me, I think, and that may have been game there. 3. I should have scouted him better after fending off his initial 7 pool as I had a probe out on the map. 4. My probe production was reasonably OK, I think, for one base and in comparison to him (I kept making probes iirc during the early Ling attack). He only went past me in harvester count when he droned hard after dropping his second (and I guess once I had 30 probes on one base, any return from more workers was minimal in any case). 5. Hiding a probe and making a pylon (perhaps in the Z main while I took it down) for the base race may also have helped but I doubt I would have won in a straight engagement at the end anyway. I was too behind. The replay is here: http://drop.sc/199200 So yeah, confirmation of the above and any extra tips would be nice. These kinds of games are really >_<. Thanks. The irony is that if I had gate expanded as normal I would have rolled him with a second gate at ramp -> delayed 4 gate. You just need more experience defending early pools. Your first pylon was misplaced. You only need 1 well-placed cannon to defend an early attack. You mannered yourself with your cannon, blocking off 2 mineral patches. Your gateway, core, and 2nd gas were all very very late. Zerg only gets behind with a 6-7 pool if Protoss does a perfect response. Any one of the mistakes I mentioned would have put you behind the zerg. Because you were far from perfect, and about 2+ minutes late with everything, Zerg got way way ahead. Not only do you expand later, but the delayed warpgates lets Zerg drone up to infinity, because you can't feign any pressure. I recommend loading up a pro replay/vod of 6 pool defense and trying to mimic it. For example, the recent Alicia vs DRG games from MLG finals was a decent early-game response from Alicia, but he just messed up mid and late game. | ||
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