EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 260
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IHertz
United States66 Posts
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Payson
United States394 Posts
On June 15 2012 08:45 IHertz wrote: In PvP I do a build that gets 3 stalkers out really fast (NOT the 3 stalker rush, I learned this build from Rotterdam), if I see my opponent being really greedy with a 1 gate robo how do I punish this? I tried 4 gating it and do a ton of economic damage, but they always seem to get an immortal out and defend it...and then do a 2 collosus push and kill me, how do I punish when I see this? (and what composition should I have during a 4gate against 1 gate robo). Can you provide a replay? I'll check it out for you to see what you did wrong. If he's going for a greedy 1gate robo (what unit comp is he running before the Robo kicks in?) you should be able to get a pylon at the bottom of his ramp or even in his main depending on how greedy he is playing. How fast are these 3 stalkers coming out? A replay would really help with all this! | ||
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IHertz
United States66 Posts
On June 15 2012 08:54 Payson wrote: Can you provide a replay? I'll check it out for you to see what you did wrong. If he's going for a greedy 1gate robo (what unit comp is he running before the Robo kicks in?) you should be able to get a pylon at the bottom of his ramp or even in his main depending on how greedy he is playing. How fast are these 3 stalkers coming out? A replay would really help with all this! http://drop.sc/198000 - Here you are, btw I am in diamond. | ||
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Payson
United States394 Posts
Well, my first issue is you went 11 gate, if you're going to cut that probee, you SHOULD be attempting to put heavy pressure on your opponent, which you didn't. (I'm guessing this is part of the build?) When you decided to 4gate, you first warp in didn't even come until 6:25, and you were only going off 2 gateways at that point. If you were going to commit to the 4gate, you should've put all your chrono into warpgate tech and get that warpin at 5:45! Your main unit composition should be the normal 4 stalkers to start off warping in with, this way you can pick off the majority of his units, you'll likely get your 2nd warpin with 3 zealots and a stalker by the time his first immortal pops out and it's gg from there. You're opponent could've done a better job holding your push though, his ffs were off and not very effective. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 15 2012 08:45 IHertz wrote: In PvP I do a build that gets 3 stalkers out really fast (NOT the 3 stalker rush, I learned this build from Rotterdam), if I see my opponent being really greedy with a 1 gate robo how do I punish this? I tried 4 gating it and do a ton of economic damage, but they always seem to get an immortal out and defend it...and then do a 2 collosus push and kill me, how do I punish when I see this? (and what composition should I have during a 4gate against 1 gate robo). 1g robo isn't really greedy though, and should beat 4 gate consistently. Theres really no way to tell hes gonna 1g robo unless he decides to reveal to you his 2nd gas, and even that doesn't indicate much. That, and like mentioned above, your 4 gate was poorly executed. If you had hit the correct timings and micro'ed vs the zealots you'd have easily rolled him over. It's definitely not the hardest build, but in high level PvP warp gate timings will make or break you. I'd practice the build first and make sure you're hitting the timings correctly before trying to wing it in a 1v1. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
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CaliGuy03
2 Posts
I'm a pretty mediocre silver-league player. My macro is probably a bit below where it should be, but it's not bad. I think my much bigger issues are micro and mechanics. Specifically, I am consistently losing in PvT to MMM or MMM+Tank mixes, even when I have a higher army value and upgrades before the engagement. I don't have a replay at the moment, so I was hoping somebody could just some general advice. Assuming a fairly equal army size (or my army being a bit more valuable, even), what are the basic principles for Protoss versus MMM or MMM+Tank? Assume that the armies engage on equal terrain and without any crazy retreating--just a straight up fight. Given that my army value tends to be higher than my opponent's, and I'm still losing, the way I see it, my issue must be one of these two things; 1) Army composition 2) Micro/mechanics Any general tips would be great. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On June 15 2012 11:47 CaliGuy03 wrote: Ok, I need some help-- I'm a pretty mediocre silver-league player. My macro is probably a bit below where it should be, but it's not bad. I think my much bigger issues are micro and mechanics. Specifically, I am consistently losing in PvT to MMM or MMM+Tank mixes, even when I have a higher army value and upgrades before the engagement. I don't have a replay at the moment, so I was hoping somebody could just some general advice. Assuming a fairly equal army size (or my army being a bit more valuable, even), what are the basic principles for Protoss versus MMM or MMM+Tank? Assume that the armies engage on equal terrain and without any crazy retreating--just a straight up fight. Given that my army value tends to be higher than my opponent's, and I'm still losing, the way I see it, my issue must be one of these two things; 1) Army composition 2) Micro/mechanics Any general tips would be great. We need the replay. Also, mechanics is indicative of macro. And in silver league you shouldn't think its ok or good. Your first focus has to be macro, always always always. Don't be complacent it will make you play worse and it will take longer to get better. I thought my macro was "ok", got complacent and was stuck in diamond for a year before hitting masters. I am still not happy with my macro and my skill level and thats what keeps me playing and improving  This being said against tanks having immortals is good, having collossi is good against marines is good. Don't forget to use guardian shield every time you engage any ranged units. Be careful with the composition. 2 zealots/1 stalker/1 sentry for every 4 gateways that produce units is what I learned a long long time ago. When you get 4 sentries against terran its ok to stop and get 2 zealot/1 stalker spend rest of gas on tech and you want a 2:1 ratio of zealots to stalkers most of the time. You only need about 10-16 stalkers to kill vikings that shoot your collossi. Thats a simple and quick run down | ||
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CaliGuy03
2 Posts
On June 15 2012 12:00 ZeromuS wrote: We need the replay. Also, mechanics is indicative of macro. And in silver league you shouldn't think its ok or good. Your first focus has to be macro, always always always. Don't be complacent it will make you play worse and it will take longer to get better. I thought my macro was "ok", got complacent and was stuck in diamond for a year before hitting masters. I am still not happy with my macro and my skill level and thats what keeps me playing and improving This being said against tanks having immortals is good, having collossi is good against marines is good. Don't forget to use guardian shield every time you engage any ranged units. Be careful with the composition. 2 zealots/1 stalker/1 sentry for every 4 gateways that produce units is what I learned a long long time ago. When you get 4 sentries against terran its ok to stop and get 2 zealot/1 stalker spend rest of gas on tech and you want a 2:1 ratio of zealots to stalkers most of the time. You only need about 10-16 stalkers to kill vikings that shoot your collossi. Thats a simple and quick run down Appreciate it. I will post replay when I can, I just don't have them on this computer and I'm not at home. I should clarify: I don't think my macro is "good." I don't even think it's "average" in the scheme of all SC2 players. I really said that only to emphasize that I'm frequently losing games where I am significnatly outperforming the other guy in macro. Watching my replays, I consistently have better worker saturation, higher army value, more upgrades, etc., and I still regularly lose to the Terran unit compositions above. But your point is well taken about macro. I'll keep it in mind. Really appreciate your tips on unit composition. I think I'm overproducing stalkers and underproducing zealots. Are there any tricks to protecting your Colossi from focus fire? I usually get the range upgrade, but I still find them going down very quickly relative to the rest of my army. Also, what about force field in those engagements? I find it very hard to split up an MMM army when they already have a nice concave by the time they get to me. | ||
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
standard 1gate expand into 3gate robo get 4 gases asap add on a forge and TC get +1 armor and charge templar archives as gas allows add on 1 or 2 gates all gas to templar and rest of production to zealots take a third as storm finishes, and I usually have around 4 templar with energy for storm by then. However, I never feel like I have enough stuff to defend midgame pushes, even if I land my storms. I really want to learn how to use templar as my main AoE, since even if it's not optimal it will improve me as a player who has always relied on colossi. So, questions: 1) Is templar first a legitimate style that can work? 2) Should I be playing the passive game, trying to establish a third? Or should I be more aggressive? 3) Is the build I'm using optimal or are there better ones? | ||
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insearchof
United States57 Posts
On June 15 2012 01:44 IROverRated wrote: Hi all Finally convinced myself to join this lovely forum. I've finally managed to get back into the Silver league (got knocked down to bronze after stopping playing SC2 for some time due to having another edition to the family :D) I got into Silver last night, and noticed that it's a lot different from Bronze (thank god) and actually offers a challenge. I have noticed however that a lot of the Zerg are doing the 7 roach timing attack. I've been opening with a 1 Gate FE but by the time he attacks me I only have a few sentries/stalkers due to not having much gas. When do you guys think would be the best time to get gas? try getting much later gases, and just more cannons? if its the 7 roach rush from along time ago then the zerg does it off 1 base. if u cannon up youll be on 2base and the better income. your choice to either macro up off 2base and timing attack or take your third and get more ahead. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On June 15 2012 12:53 Kovaz wrote: What's a good build to get templar first in PvT? I generally go for: standard 1gate expand into 3gate robo get 4 gases asap add on a forge and TC get +1 armor and charge templar archives as gas allows add on 1 or 2 gates all gas to templar and rest of production to zealots take a third as storm finishes, and I usually have around 4 templar with energy for storm by then. However, I never feel like I have enough stuff to defend midgame pushes, even if I land my storms. I really want to learn how to use templar as my main AoE, since even if it's not optimal it will improve me as a player who has always relied on colossi. So, questions: 1) Is templar first a legitimate style that can work? 2) Should I be playing the passive game, trying to establish a third? Or should I be more aggressive? 3) Is the build I'm using optimal or are there better ones? I like to use kcdc's pvt opener vs gaseless expanding terrans http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339 gets you two templars with storm, 1/1 and chargelots around the standard 10:30 two medivac push from gasless expanding terrans. Also lets you take a pretty quick third, should the terran play standard ofc. If you do see them opening a two rax, or some kind of one gas/two gas play, you will not get storm in time since your whole build needs to be adjusted and i seriously dont recommend you trying to rush to storm at that point because the medivac push will come faster and you just wont have the firepower to deal with it. You will need to go through robo tech or some kind of timing. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
do P think zerg are op? why (so i can abuse it on ladder haha). seems like a lot of people are saying zerg op recently. not trying to talk balance, just wondering what 'many toss' think of the state of zerg and what exactly is the headache. i just feel so lost in this match-up, you can't start any tech for fear that it's actually 7 gate + tech instead of 5 gates + tech into expand and then your mutas are too late to do damage/infestors and quick hive are too slow and you die. cant find a balance. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:53 Belial88 wrote: do you guys see mostly infestor play, mass roach play, or mutas in zvp? Every time I use mutas and toss took a quick third and reasonably holds (like robo/sentry into third into blink) i just gg out because i feel like im too far behind (and if i made any roaches, which you generally have to because you can't tell if it's robo expand or robo all-in, you cant get enough mutas to do anything). Is muta play still used in zvp? what's harder for you to deal with? do P think zerg are op? why (so i can abuse it on ladder haha). seems like a lot of people are saying zerg op recently. not trying to talk balance, just wondering what 'many toss' think of the state of zerg and what exactly is the headache. i just feel so lost in this match-up, you can't start any tech for fear that it's actually 7 gate + tech instead of 5 gates + tech into expand and then your mutas are too late to do damage/infestors and quick hive are too slow and you die. cant find a balance. Mostly i see various busts on my third, with either roach, roach hydra (if i open stargate they seem to think that's going to work. Protip: dont), or even hydra ling (same as before), followed by the usual wall of spines, infestor/broodlord etc. I personally think Mutas are a good reaction when you see protoss taking a third off robo tech, if not the best, and i rarely see muta builds lately for some reason. Mutas are probably the hardest thing to deal with for me in that situation, especially if you play super risky and do a very greedy muta build that's unsafe against lots of allins. The other thing that's hard for me to deal with is super lategame when zerg pushes with both insane amounts of well split infestor/broodlord and the whole freakin spine crawler wall across the map. I know in that spot i need carriers but i still haven't figured out how to transition into them. Last i fucking suck against baneling drop stuff because i my micro is bad and i don't know how to react well to that kind of play, banelings are scary as hell tt. PvZ is my best matchup though (low master/high diamond level so whatever :D) and whenever i lose it' usually shitty minimap awareness or awful micro, so take all this with a grain of salt. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Then, seeing Toss expand, putting a spire down at that time is already too late, and if you made any roaches (like preparing for immortal/sentry all-in or even pressure), you lose. It would be okay if you could just make a spire, and then go roach/ling until toss makes a third, but you'd basically die to any all-in. We are seeing zergs do some really crazy stuff now in zvp, like skip roach speed and upgrades and go super fast muta to just base trade vs all-ins, but it's very new stuff so maybe it will work maybe it won't. That's the problem with mutas vs robo tech. Yes, robo expand, its amazing. Robo all-in, it's terrible and you just autolose just for makikng a spire. Thanks for the reply though. Shouldn't you be pushing against zerg before he has hive, with 3+ colossi and 3 base army though? Or you just can't break a good spine/infestor/corruptor wall? I used to baneling drop a lot. maybe i'll try it against fast third robo openers. i just stopped doing it because imo just going infestors and fast hive for the same cost is better, and the difference that bane drop allows you to attack before toss move sout while bl comes after toss moves out, can be saved by massing spines to just buy that extra time. i dont see pros do it ever, and once i got higher up it seemed infestor and muta and even mass roach play is just better. what about using the mothership against that mass broodlord army, or at least to prevent zerg from pushing on you and buy you enough time to get carriers? you dont have to engage with the mothership, just use it to make sure zerg backs off so you can buy enough time for some carriers. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
I don't mind going up to mothership, playing the lategame and all that stuff honestly, rather than trying to kill zerg before hive tech; i only go for a 3base timing like that if he goes for a bust on my third and fails horribly (again, lol roach hydra). I find it really easy to just outmultitask zergs at my level with warp prisms, storm drops etc and eventually archon toilet to finish it. I just have a hard time breaking a zerg when he's actually pushing with all his stuff in the middle up the map, in split situations, even if i do have archon+mothership because, well, 20 spines supporting 15 broods and 10 infestors (or something like that) is a ton of damage no matter what you have basically. Thankfully, the vast majority of my pvz's never get to split map stage because i often end up either screwing up my micro and losing or killing the zerg's economy before he can get the sick deathball in position to push my side of the map. Realistically given what people do these days, you are better off just playing it super safe against allins and in case going up to hive tech. I went through all of the replays of korean players in ipl4 in pvz, and out of 26 games there were....4 in which protoss did a straight up 3 base macro build. 4. All of the otheres were some random 2base allin, which just makes me sad. Oh also, it's annoying as hell if zerg delays his third and gets ling speed, because with the new queen range it's hard as hell to tell wether zerg is allining or just trying to scare you with speedlings, keeping map control etc. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:53 Belial88 wrote: do you guys see mostly infestor play, mass roach play, or mutas in zvp? Every time I use mutas and toss took a quick third and reasonably holds (like robo/sentry into third into blink) i just gg out because i feel like im too far behind (and if i made any roaches, which you generally have to because you can't tell if it's robo expand or robo all-in, you cant get enough mutas to do anything). Is muta play still used in zvp? what's harder for you to deal with? do P think zerg are op? why (so i can abuse it on ladder haha). seems like a lot of people are saying zerg op recently. not trying to talk balance, just wondering what 'many toss' think of the state of zerg and what exactly is the headache. i just feel so lost in this match-up, you can't start any tech for fear that it's actually 7 gate + tech instead of 5 gates + tech into expand and then your mutas are too late to do damage/infestors and quick hive are too slow and you die. cant find a balance. Like, 75% of my PvZ are standard roach/ling into infestor. 10% are roach into muta and 15% go roachless ling muta. Iunno how you'd gg out unless you're losing tons of mutas from blink. If they're at the very least stuck on 3 base and preparing to max out and try to win you have a reasonable shot at a base trade. Also depends on the map too I guess. I don't think it's OP it's just intimidating. Some maps are fairly difficult to hold muta pressure before storm/blink. It's also really annoying when they reveal roaches, but then make an ovseer/and or spores to deny total vision/hide the spire/gas count. The first attack by the unscouted mutas will usually score a minimum of 10 workers. | ||
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IROverRated
United Kingdom5 Posts
On June 15 2012 15:57 insearchof wrote: try getting much later gases, and just more cannons? if its the 7 roach rush from along time ago then the zerg does it off 1 base. if u cannon up youll be on 2base and the better income. your choice to either macro up off 2base and timing attack or take your third and get more ahead. It is that unfortunately, I did play a game last night and he just mass roached with about 30+ roaches by 12 minutes (I think, not sure) I luckily managed to hold this off however with FF placements, immortals, and my colossi just made it out in time. It's after the first engagement I struggle with mostly because I don't react quick enough to his transitions and i just freeze up. I need to practice against zerg as well because that's my weakest match up (vT or vP I'm ok with) It's just Zerg that's the problem for me. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 15 2012 23:57 IROverRated wrote: It is that unfortunately, I did play a game last night and he just mass roached with about 30+ roaches by 12 minutes (I think, not sure) I luckily managed to hold this off however with FF placements, immortals, and my colossi just made it out in time. It's after the first engagement I struggle with mostly because I don't react quick enough to his transitions and i just freeze up. I need to practice against zerg as well because that's my weakest match up (vT or vP I'm ok with) It's just Zerg that's the problem for me. A replay would be nice (upload them on drop.sc), but generally if zerg does some sort of roach-heavy build, your army eventually will be as cost efficient as his in the long run unless his economy is much better (hence the saying, zerg should always be one base ahead of protoss). With that in mind, once you hold off roach aggression if you have as many bases as him you can just macro for like 3 minutes and counter attack to win. Especially in lower leagues, zergs tend to have very very late third bases so that would be a reasonable plan. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On June 15 2012 12:15 CaliGuy03 wrote: Appreciate it. I will post replay when I can, I just don't have them on this computer and I'm not at home. I should clarify: I don't think my macro is "good." I don't even think it's "average" in the scheme of all SC2 players. I really said that only to emphasize that I'm frequently losing games where I am significnatly outperforming the other guy in macro. Watching my replays, I consistently have better worker saturation, higher army value, more upgrades, etc., and I still regularly lose to the Terran unit compositions above. But your point is well taken about macro. I'll keep it in mind. Really appreciate your tips on unit composition. I think I'm overproducing stalkers and underproducing zealots. Are there any tricks to protecting your Colossi from focus fire? I usually get the range upgrade, but I still find them going down very quickly relative to the rest of my army. Also, what about force field in those engagements? I find it very hard to split up an MMM army when they already have a nice concave by the time they get to me. It is natural as a Protoss when you have a warp in round available to just go "meh, more stalkers." A lot of midgame Protoss compositions become almost mass stalker. Stalkers get absolutely annihilated by marauders. No contest. In silver, once you get around 3 colossi (and they're scouted) your opponent SHOULD start producing Vikings. Have an observer in their base to check their starport production (or if you want to be fancy, dropping some zealots in there with a warp prism gets you a scout and can delay production.) Switch your production to HT with storm, and a few archons (usually stop around 4-6 templar, the rest archons until late game.) Silver players won't be able to dodge storms. So just blanket their army in storms before your chargelots hit them and you'll crush them. If they have ghosts then you have to win the feedback vs EMP war. But if they have a concave, don't engage. Sit back and wait for them to come to you - when they're on move command, you can storm them a lot easier. Especially if they have to go through a choke, which you can create with force fields. However, most forcefields in that situation become fairly redundant, as they will hinder the surface area your zealots can get, and archons and colossi crush them anyway. Use FFs to create doughnuts to storm, or to block off the escape of the Terran army (be prepared to use stalkers to target down medivacs if they pick up and fly off, blink is useful for this.) Generally just pop a guardian shield, get your stalkers to target vikings, feedback ghosts and storm the big balls of bio units. Also don't forget to warp in units during the fight, and spend chrono on your gates. You should have around 7-8 gates off 2 base, and 11-12 off 3. 4 gates per base isn't QUITE sustainable, but it should be fine at silver. | ||
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