EPTIt's nice learning a new build though! (Sure are a lot of Z on ladder too, 15/20 games for me in S8 thus far.)
I'll have a look at the VOD/replay when it's released.
Cheers.
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 262
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
It's nice learning a new build though! (Sure are a lot of Z on ladder too, 15/20 games for me in S8 thus far.) I'll have a look at the VOD/replay when it's released. Cheers. | ||
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Random_Guy09
Canada1010 Posts
On June 17 2012 14:40 aZealot wrote: Right, so I've finally started learning FFE. Second time through today, I run into a 7 pool. I thought I held it reasonably OK at first by putting a cannon in my mineral line and transitioning into a 4 Gate. However, by the time I moved out, he had a second base down, had droned past my harvester count, and had just started mining off a 3rd. I eventually died to a Muta switch (that was a surprise as I was "wtf! how can he afford that!" and a base trade where he spined up. I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at this replay and give me some advice on what I could have done better. 1. I think I may have overmade cannons in my main (2 would have been sufficient given the number of early lings he had out) and probably should not have made a forge and dropped another cannon as I moved out (if I was expecting a run by I should have walled off the ramp). 2. I think I should have also taken a second gas sooner so that I could afford more Stalkers early as I was too Zealot and Sentry heavy and lost too many of these units to roaches in my first engagement. My FF could have been better too and the loss of those sentries hurt but I was surprised by the second wave of his roaches (I was under the mistaken impression that I was in front at that time). The second wave hitting really cost me, I think, and that may have been game there. 3. I should have scouted him better after fending off his initial 7 pool as I had a probe out on the map. 4. My probe production was reasonably OK, I think, for one base and in comparison to him (I kept making probes iirc during the early Ling attack). He only went past me in harvester count when he droned hard after dropping his second (and I guess once I had 30 probes on one base, any return from more workers was minimal in any case). 5. Hiding a probe and making a pylon (perhaps in the Z main while I took it down) for the base race may also have helped but I doubt I would have won in a straight engagement at the end anyway. I was too behind. The replay is here: http://drop.sc/199200 So yeah, confirmation of the above and any extra tips would be nice. These kinds of games are really >_<. Thanks. The irony is that if I had gate expanded as normal I would have rolled him with a second gate at ramp -> delayed 4 gate.  Ok right off the bat you dropped your forge a little late. You could have had it down on 13 supply (means you could have had the cannon down a little earlier which could have helped). Was a good hold only lost 1 worker in the whole process. But it seems like you over react after the hold and build way more pylons to catch up or something (dont know your thought process behind this) After the hold you probably should have started to wall off and get up your natural ASAP. So the forge you build could have technically been on the low ground as part of your wall like a normal FFE. 10:04 Probe is sitting waiting to build a nexus while you have 1.4k minerals in the bank. This so far has put you way behind as zerg expanded as they pressured with the 7 pool. The longer you delay the more you fall behind. 10:13 2nd gas goes down (this is usually put down way earlier but considering the circumstances it should have went down as soon as you held off the agression. (as seen your really gas starved) And there is no probe production at all. Cant forget that. As soon as your safe keep building probes because thats putting you way behind in workers. 10:36 warping in units (which is completely fine) But your probe is still sitting on the natural and there is no nexus and you have almost 900 minerals banked and your not producing any probes. (with a natural that could have been down 32 seconds ago and chrono's you could have passed him easily in workers as by this point its only 48 drones to 30 probes because he's droning up and your nexus isnt building any workers at all) 10:50 No wall off to defend a run by or bust of any sorts and your natural still isnt down and Zerg has just started his 3rd. And your pushing out with no defenses (as said before) No robo down to get an observer to scout around (could have probably had one if you didnt make the mistakes earlier) Atleast you managed to see him and fall back but the lack of a wall and natural your really putting yourself into a big economic hole (even though the zerg is having problems with producing workers aswell) 11:20 cannon down and another pylon and still no wall, natural still not established, lack of probe and unit production . If not for the mistakes so far you'd have a pretty good defense against his units at the bottom of the ramp. 11:47 89/100 to your 68/98 and you push down the ramp (no overlord gives you defenders advantage as he cant see the high ground) Still gas starved because 3rd and 4th gas arent down because natural isnt established (have to keep bringing it up  ) No reason to push here just stay ontop of the ramp and let him come to you. (got some good FF's off but could have probably saved some units if you didnt push)13:06 Was able to force him to fall back but he's double your supply (not very good situation for you) Plus he also has a 3rd established and is saturating it. So now its looking to be a 3 base Zerg vs a 1 base protoss. Your also warping in more units and not getting down that natural even with the 500 minerals you have after warping in the stalkers. 14:00ish you push out and take out his 3rd which helps a little bit but considering how long zerg has been on 2 bases your still in a big economic hole (take note of his supply and his income and look at yours (enough for a nexus (i know its probably getting annoying but it needs to be stressed) hes up 30 supply and has ~1000 min/gas in the bank) 16:00 Your on his naturals door step he has 1/0 roaches and spines to defend. You have 0/0 stalkers (with no blink) 16:55 Natural finally goes down 7 minutes late and your main is pretty much mined out and you make 4 probes and start making sentries (by this point he's pushing you back and hes up 131 to 75 supply) And by this point he starts making mutas no less. Get a nice amount of them (starts a macro hatch and greater spire is on the way along with 18 lings to reinforce his push)and pushes out and there is no army reaction from you and they're so out of position that you dont really have anything (and your just starting a wall 17 minutes into the game) He just flies into your main and starts picking stuff off and you try and force a base race (its been said many times by top players and casters you'll never win a base race against zerg if they have a nice amount of mutas) So thats pretty much the game. To sum it up after you defend and force back the agression get your natural up ASAP or you'll get crushed by his economy(except he was lacking in his macro a good bit. As he could have had 3 bases up by the time he backed off) From there it was just a line of mistakes like not walling off to defend any sort of runby he could have threw at you knowing you were behind. It was said in one of Day[9]'s dailies about a plan. You have your plan before you go in (gateway expand, FFE or w/e else you decide to do) and you stick to it. If there happens to be conflicts like attacks and such fend it off and go back and think about what your plan was going into the game (This case FFE) But it honestly fell apart when you didnt throw down a nexus when you secured your natural. Watch some pro replays (HerO just recently release a replay pack with 4 games of all 3 MU's or find the IPL4 replay pack) and just watch and see how they react to the zerg's agression and what they do if their plan gets delayed or switched up because of scouting and what not. If you havent already watch the recent Day[9] dailies about PvZ as they really help with the different situations we could run into against Zerg. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On June 17 2012 17:39 aZealot wrote: Thanks for the detailed comments. Just to clarify, it's possible to transition into a normal expansion style of play vs a successfully held 6/7 pool while doing a FFE? I thought 4 Gate was the usual option (assuming the timing is tight) and it's what I normally do when defending a 6 pool with a Gate/Gas expand (wall off with Gatex2+pylon->delayed 4 Gate). Standard is transitioning into standard gateway expand play. 4 gate is risky, because if zerg knows it's coming he can hold it off. I like to think of it as resetting the game; the tradeoff is similar to zerg starting with 5 drones(instead of 6) in exchange for forcing you to open gateway expand. He can still hold off 4 gate with 5 drones, but it'll be just a bit harder. He can play macro, but it'll be a bit weaker. | ||
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Misuari
Singapore45 Posts
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On June 17 2012 19:07 NrGmonk wrote: Standard is transitioning into standard gateway expand play. 4 gate is risky, because if zerg knows it's coming he can hold it off. I like to think of it as resetting the game; the tradeoff is similar to zerg starting with 5 drones(instead of 6) in exchange for forcing you to open gateway expand. He can still hold off 4 gate with 5 drones, but it'll be just a bit harder. He can play macro, but it'll be a bit weaker. Monk, what do you factor into a tech choice after doing a gate expand after the 6/7 pool denies the FFE? I have been favoring Stargate ala a gsl game vs nestea (cant remember who but it was on entombed) because it seems like it offers a lot of options and good scouting. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 17 2012 22:53 Misuari wrote: Hey TL! I'm really struggling with my Zerg MU. Could anyone tell me where i go wrong ? Would really appreciate it! Here is the replay : http://drop.sc/199332 Well, 4 gating isn't a reliable way to open in PvZ. It's easily scouted, and subsequently easily held. I wouldn't analyze the game beyond the point where your four gate failed. FFE is a much more solid opening. If you're intent on all-inning zerg though, there are all-in variants of the FFE as well. | ||
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
I took 0 damage from banshees, made 8+ cannons for defense and had a few phoenix as well, and he just stomped right through my front door, with 2 pdds to soak up cannon fire. Literally no idea how to hold that. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On June 18 2012 03:58 Kovaz wrote: How do you hold a 2port banshee allin that makes a raven for pdd? I took 0 damage from banshees, made 8+ cannons for defense and had a few phoenix as well, and he just stomped right through my front door, with 2 pdds to soak up cannon fire. Literally no idea how to hold that. Not enough info, MUST post the replay. | ||
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Misuari
Singapore45 Posts
On June 18 2012 03:55 Tyrant0 wrote: Well, 4 gating isn't a reliable way to open in PvZ. It's easily scouted, and subsequently easily held. I wouldn't analyze the game beyond the point where your four gate failed. FFE is a much more solid opening. If you're intent on all-inning zerg though, there are all-in variants of the FFE as well. Oh okay man. Thanks mate ! | ||
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o Griffin o
United States2 Posts
I read the rules, but if this is somehow too general of a question then I will edit the post down to a single more specific question. Note: my first post ever so please stay with me This is the matchup that I generally have the most trouble with. I almost always open 13 gate - 14 gas - 16 pylon the first zealot I sometimes skip if I scout a FE from our wonderful terran and if not then I'll go 3gate robo. Now is suprisingly the part where I am lost. It seems simple but I would like some help in the following areas. My general unit composition in a FE situation and a "normal" game What signals my 3rd? What attack timings could I use? What attack timings should I expect from the Terran? When should I throw down my tech or upgrades? Thanks to anyone who anwsers and if you do anwser then don't feel obligated to adress all the q's | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
Thanks | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 18 2012 13:06 -MoOsE- wrote: Ok I'm having troubles facing the broodlord deathball. I will harass and bring the zerg down to like 3 base, so most mining is nonexsistant but when he pushes I just lose everything to his push. Now I am maxed and he is too, floating around 15-20 broods and a handful of infestors and whatever leftover units he has. I have a mommaship, 2 collusus, a couple of archons like 3 ht and the rest stalkers. Now my question is what should be the order that I attack. Should I lead with mothership? feedback with ht, or blink in first. I just have no idea how to engage this army and just get crushed everytime. Thanks Personally, if I'm up against 15-20 broodlords I like to keep my mothership back home and trading my slower units for stalkers and void rays. My mobile force can strike wherever his really, REALLY slow force is not, while if need be I can just teleport back home to defend thanks to the mothership. It's quite easy to stop his mining completely while expanding yourself with this setup, then you can just trade forever until he's out of stuff. | ||
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aBstractx
United States287 Posts
On June 18 2012 12:03 o Griffin o wrote: Topic: General thing about PvT for High Diamond and low Masters I read the rules, but if this is somehow too general of a question then I will edit the post down to a single more specific question. Note: my first post ever so please stay with me This is the matchup that I generally have the most trouble with. I almost always open 13 gate - 14 gas - 16 pylon the first zealot I sometimes skip if I scout a FE from our wonderful terran and if not then I'll go 3gate robo. Now is suprisingly the part where I am lost. It seems simple but I would like some help in the following areas. My general unit composition in a FE situation and a "normal" game What signals my 3rd? What attack timings could I use? What attack timings should I expect from the Terran? When should I throw down my tech or upgrades? Thanks to anyone who anwsers and if you do anwser then don't feel obligated to adress all the q's your general unit composition will shift. first you want to open with a good amount of sentries, 4-6 probably. perhaps more/less if that's more YOUR style. also stalkers. you don't want a bunch of useless zealots to get kited early. mix some in but don't go heavy on them. since you're opening 3 gate robo you should probably get 1 or 2 immortals & into colossus production. you can't over produce stalkers otherwise you'll just get raped by marauders so make sure once you get a decent amount of stalkers like 15 or even less maybe that you focus on zealots, colossus & eventually HT. the only thing that could really signal your third is if you see him taking a fast third too BUT if he is taking a fast third you can most likely punish him for that by staying on 2 bases and expanding during or after you punish his third. you could also take your third extremely early at like 8 minutes which is hard for a terran to punish so you can get away but it's still risky because if it doesn't pay off obviously you're behind. There are a few timings here early in pvt. you can hit a 8:00 timing consisting of heavy sentry and stalker and push the terran. this generally comes before the terran has medivacs and with proper force fields you can deny repairing, and easily push more and more units back with each force field and killing more marines because your stalkers have superior range. I'm not personally sure of what time the 3 immortal timing hits but it's the same exact idea behind the first timing i said. Obviously it will hit a little bit later, but you chronoboost out 3 immortals and push the terran and again with good force fields can be a very deadly push. The reason i'm not too familiar with the immortal push is because if the terran opens up a gasless expand which is usually the case (high masters/gm) I usually opt to skip the robo entirely, open straight 3 gateway, double forge into twilight council and 7-8 gateways. if you aren't hitting either of those timings then be ready to defend because around the 9 minute mark the terran should be gearing up to push with 2 medivacs. this is arguably the hardest push to hold from a terran because it's important that you split your army correctly if he decides to split his. your best bet is to leave all your sentries and zealots @ your natural and be ready to force field the ramp. all of your stalkers should be in your main ready to snipe the drops (target fire medivacs) hold off with the force fields until you can clearly determine exactly what it is he's doing. if he's just pushing you with everything then bring your stalkers with your main army. also building more observers and leaving them on the side of your bases can really help you to identify drops faster and be ready for them. tech and upgrades build order should really be something like this, and obviously you're playing so you need to feel the game out and sense what might be more important. after the initial 3 gate or 3 gate robo you want to drop 2 forges, and go up to 6 or 7 gateways. chronoboost your upgrades because they are extremely important especially if terran is skimping on theirs you can EASILY roll a terran when ahead by 2 or more stages of upgrades. start your twilight sometimes before upgrades finish and start blink immediately. you would probably think to start legs first because they're useful but nothing is more useful than blink when trying to defend terran aggression. blink allows you to snipe any incoming drops in your main or other bases, it lets you chase down any medivacs assuming you won the battle and he's retreating. ugh i hope this helped you. aBstract.838 if you got any questions honestly not sure if those are my id numbers lol but oh well  good night | ||
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aBstractx
United States287 Posts
On June 18 2012 13:06 -MoOsE- wrote: Ok I'm having troubles facing the broodlord deathball. I will harass and bring the zerg down to like 3 base, so most mining is nonexsistant but when he pushes I just lose everything to his push. Now I am maxed and he is too, floating around 15-20 broods and a handful of infestors and whatever leftover units he has. I have a mommaship, 2 collusus, a couple of archons like 3 ht and the rest stalkers. Now my question is what should be the order that I attack. Should I lead with mothership? feedback with ht, or blink in first. I just have no idea how to engage this army and just get crushed everytime. Thanks if you have a mother ship and you aren't doing an archon toilet that's your mistake. vortex the brood lords, send in archons kill, other shit. HT feedback infestors and when he's vulnerable you should be blinking in and targeting. if you manage to get a critical mass of stalkers to blink right under his broodlords theres nothing he can do. even if you lose every stalker thats a terrific trade. all his broodlods are dead by target fire. most likely your colossus live which is the most important. like the other guy said you can use your mother ship for when shit hits the fan you can recall back home, or take into mind how slow the broodlord army is. you can dance around it all day and base trade at will. there is nothing he can do. they're just too slow. so if you feel you have no chance just run around them | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On June 18 2012 13:06 -MoOsE- wrote: Ok I'm having troubles facing the broodlord deathball. I will harass and bring the zerg down to like 3 base, so most mining is nonexsistant but when he pushes I just lose everything to his push. Now I am maxed and he is too, floating around 15-20 broods and a handful of infestors and whatever leftover units he has. I have a mommaship, 2 collusus, a couple of archons like 3 ht and the rest stalkers. Now my question is what should be the order that I attack. Should I lead with mothership? feedback with ht, or blink in first. I just have no idea how to engage this army and just get crushed everytime. Thanks Usually Zerg will want you to engage him on top of spores and spines So it's really good that you harass Zerg at lategame, best things that pro's use is: 2 Speedprism 1) Stormdrops 2) DT drops 3) zealot warp-ins for tech-kill. 4) blink-stalker w/ recall. What you want to achieve is that zerg will come to you. So you should see what positions are good for engagement. What you want to achive is. - Spread your stalkers so fungals will be less effective - Control your MS, so you don't get NP'd - Vortex the BL - Blink in/focus colossi to snipe the infestors and BL that aren't in vortex - Move archon into the vortex - Warp-in - Clap your hands, while watching archons annihilating the BL From here you go: - Kill-push into the spines and destroy zerg, while he is still rebuilding his army. Or - Move your Prisms into harrass position, snipe tech and hatch, warp-in zealots. - Take another base, to secure your lead. Also you want carriers into lategame composition, they are awesome. I very reccomend watching recent Dreamhack game of  mTwDIMAGA vs  EGJYP on Daybreak. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 18 2012 16:40 Rimak wrote: Usually Zerg will want you to engage him on top of spores and spines So it's really good that you harass Zerg at lategame, best things that pro's use is: 2 Speedprism 1) Stormdrops 2) DT drops 3) zealot warp-ins for tech-kill. 4) blink-stalker w/ recall. What you want to achieve is that zerg will come to you. So you should see what positions are good for engagement. What you want to achive is. - Spread your stalkers so fungals will be less effective - Control your MS, so you don't get NP'd - Vortex the BL - Blink in/focus colossi to snipe the infestors and BL that aren't in vortex - Move archon into the vortex - Warp-in - Clap your hands, while watching archons annihilating the BL From here you go: - Kill-push into the spines and destroy zerg, while he is still rebuilding his army. Or - Move your Prisms into harrass position, snipe tech and hatch, warp-in zealots. - Take another base, to secure your lead. Also you want carriers into lategame composition, they are awesome. I very reccomend watching recent Dreamhack game of mTwDIMAGA vs EGJYP on Daybreak.Or you can watch any of Idras ZvPs, apparently all protosses does the exact right thing against him every time ;D | ||
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Misuari
Singapore45 Posts
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 18 2012 21:33 Misuari wrote: Hey TL. Me again . Can anyone tell me a solid and safe opening for PvZ ? Cant seem to open safely to zergs. Pretty much no matter what opening you do it's safe against zerg. What do you have problems with, specifically? | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
If he takes no gas past about 4 minutes you can rule out a bust or 2base play; at this time his third hatch should also go down. If he does take gas just for speed, the third hatch should be down at around 6 minutes. If he takes gas, chrono out a zealot and go scout with it while making a second cannon; make sure to have probe on hold position to close your wall if you didn't do it fully so he doesn't randomly sneak lings into your base. Regarding followups, there's plenty of good threads about them around these forums | ||
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