EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 253
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
On June 05 2012 21:02 Sated wrote: Immortal all-in: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309028 Is that an all-in? Doesn't seem it, from reading it it appears to only attack with 3 gates and a robo, and you continue to build probes on the back of it. It does seem a great build, and I may end up using it once I'm able to hit the 2-base all-ins, but I don't think it's what I'm after at this stage. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:20 Salivanth wrote: Is that an all-in? Doesn't seem it, from reading it it appears to only attack with 3 gates and a robo, and you continue to build probes on the back of it. It does seem a great build, and I may end up using it once I'm able to hit the 2-base all-ins, but I don't think it's what I'm after at this stage. When it first became popular, protoss players were cutting probes at like 30 to fully produce off 3gates while constantly rallying immortals; it was very similar in fact to a 1base immortal bust, so yeah pretty allin. Anyway i don't think there is a "strongest" 2base allin in PvT, it's just that they have different goal. I personally suggest starting with 6-7 gates because they allow you to practice forcefields and at lower level people overall kinda suck vs 6gates. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:05 Teoita wrote: When it first became popular, protoss players were cutting probes at like 30 to fully produce off 3gates while constantly rallying immortals; it was very similar in fact to a 1base immortal bust, so yeah pretty allin. Anyway i don't think there is a "strongest" 2base allin in PvT, it's just that they have different goal. I personally suggest starting with 6-7 gates because they allow you to practice forcefields and at lower level people overall kinda suck vs 6gates. I'm a bit curious as to these 6/7 gates. Is it just FE, drop 6 more gates and go for it? Is it like Partings 9 minute gateway push? Can someone point me to a replay if not? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 06 2012 01:47 TheExodus wrote: I'm a bit curious as to these 6/7 gates. Is it just FE, drop 6 more gates and go for it? Is it like Partings 9 minute gateway push? Can someone point me to a replay if not? Basically yes; it's really similar to a pvz 6gate in a way. Pushes like those were first made famous by Mc so you might find something in the open seasons vods if you don't have access to GSL tickets. Basically the whole goal is to hit right before medivacs pop, using sentries to keep terran from reparing his bunker/s. I'll post a replay of myself next time i play a pvt on ladder if you want ^_^ | ||
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Abusion
United Kingdom184 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On June 06 2012 02:22 Abusion wrote: how do you defend a cannon rush? His scouting probe started building pylons behind my mineral line on daybreak. I chrono'd out a zealot and killed the pylons and the probe. when I went scouting around my base he had already got 2 other cannons at the bottom of my ramp and was creeping them towards me and by that point I had already lose the game. I feel 90% of P's cannon rush nowadays. This particular cannon rush I don't run in to anymore because it is easy to stop once you know how to stop it. More help if you include a replay, but generally I grab 4 probes and hotkey them to ctrl group 2 when a probe goes behind my mineral line. I watch the probe as I continue my build order, and as soon as he places one pylon I hit 2 and go attack him/block pylon placement. That usually is enough to tip the scales greatly in your favor; twice the rusher has quit right on the spot but this was back when this thing (BOSS cannon rush I think) was new. | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
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aLmosTeu
Germany101 Posts
i checked everywhere for some decent Colossus PvT timings (2 base), but im not finding any :X could you guys help me?  would be amazing! | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:55 Tommyyy wrote: hello everybody, i checked everywhere for some decent Colossus PvT timings (2 base), but im not finding any :X could you guys help me? would be amazing!If I'm bold (which I usually am) and the signs are right (gasless expand, marines only at front) I do a typical 1gate fast expand (stalker sent sent) but then drop the robo without adding 2 more gates while continuously pumping probes... I make units out of the 1 gate nonstop and at 100% robo I drop the bay... add no more than 2 stalkers per 60 seconds, take your third n fourth gases after bay is done.... nonstop chrono on colossus, dont chrono range but start it, add 4 more gates late and you will have range and 3 colossus plus 5 gates at around 11-12 minutes. You can definitely autolose to pressure that you didn't see but most of the time when Terran pushes with their medivacs and marine/marauder at about 10 minutes, you easily repel it and can push on them to start taking their natural down. Half of the time they don't engage because they scan your front before they reach it, see 2 colossus, then run back to base. Either way, thats the trigger for you to apply pressure, begin a twilight council (to progress to storm), and start your third base. Keep warpgates off of cooldown in case he splits army and does some medivac drops, but thats only if your poke at his front falters. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:24 awwnuts07 wrote: Q: Lately in PvT I've been getting hit with this 6 rax MM all-in off of 2 bases. Is beating this as simple as not teching, throwing down a bunch of gateways and duking it out with the terran, or is there a specific build I need to use? Probably be most helpful if you post a replay, can't tell at this point if you engaged poorly and wasted units, or if your macro was off | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
On June 06 2012 07:12 tehemperorer wrote: Probably be most helpful if you post a replay, can't tell at this point if you engaged poorly and wasted units, or if your macro was off Damn, I just cleared them, but i'm sure I'll run into it again. | ||
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
On June 06 2012 07:26 awwnuts07 wrote: Damn, I just cleared them, but i'm sure I'll run into it again. Don't listen to that guy, you don't need to show a replay. 6rax all-in without medivacs is actually very easy to beat. First off, we have to assume you are working off of a 1gate expand or nexus first. There exists no other openers that will get you in an equally efficient midgame unless you somehow do damage, in which case you'll end up in the same place (3gate robo on 2 bases). From here, there are essentially three ways you can go about standard PvT. First off is a fast third base with a lot of gateways. If you do this, you will use your superior economy to beat the 6rax with mass zealots with a few sentries and a minimal amount of stalkers. This is probably the build to beat the all-in with. The easiest would be to go straight into colossus and delaying upgrades off of 2 base. This is a very popular way to play PvT and, with the help of forcefields, hard counters 6rax. If you go into my preferred way to play, fast double forge, you wont have colossus in time to stop the push. In order to survive off 2 bases without AoE, you will have to put down a few cannons and use forcefields witha lot of stalkers. If it's not a map with a forcefieldable ramp at the natural (tal darim, daybreak, ohana, shakuras, etc), then you will have to try doing it with a couple cannons and mass zealot sentry. Regardless, you should be working off of 6 gates and 2 forges and complete knowledge that the all-in is coming thanks to observers. Ezpz. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On June 06 2012 07:59 CCalms wrote: Don't listen to that guy, you don't need to show a replay. 6rax all-in without medivacs is actually very easy to beat. First off, we have to assume you are working off of a 1gate expand or nexus first. There exists no other openers that will get you in an equally efficient midgame unless you somehow do damage, in which case you'll end up in the same place (3gate robo on 2 bases). From here, there are essentially three ways you can go about standard PvT. First off is a fast third base with a lot of gateways. If you do this, you will use your superior economy to beat the 6rax with mass zealots with a few sentries and a minimal amount of stalkers. This is probably the build to beat the all-in with. The easiest would be to go straight into colossus and delaying upgrades off of 2 base. This is a very popular way to play PvT and, with the help of forcefields, hard counters 6rax. If you go into my preferred way to play, fast double forge, you wont have colossus in time to stop the push. In order to survive off 2 bases without AoE, you will have to put down a few cannons and use forcefields witha lot of stalkers. If it's not a map with a forcefieldable ramp at the natural (tal darim, daybreak, ohana, shakuras, etc), then you will have to try doing it with a couple cannons and mass zealot sentry. Regardless, you should be working off of 6 gates and 2 forges and complete knowledge that the all-in is coming thanks to observers. Ezpz. Decent general advice, but from my experience, replays are required. What happened in the replay is usually not what you expect. | ||
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
Regarding early game: What do you do when you open nexus first, and the zerg does some kind of cheese (6~10 pool). How about cheesy-ish pushes, like a roach rush, how do you scout and react to something like that? Could you provide me some replays? Mid game: What is the difference between a 7 gate immortal-sentry-stalker push and a colossus push? I don't think colossus are good in mid game PvZ, immortal-sentry pushes seems to be strong enough. Are immortal and colossus used for different builds or they're just personal preference? PvT questions: How do you hold a 12/14/16 rax rush? I'm getting razed when I open core expand. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 06 2012 08:08 DW-Unrec wrote: PvZ questions: Regarding early game: What do you do when you open nexus first, and the zerg does some kind of cheese (6~10 pool). How about cheesy-ish pushes, like a roach rush, how do you scout and react to something like that? Could you provide me some replays? Mid game: What is the difference between a 7 gate immortal-sentry-stalker push and a colossus push? I don't think colossus are good in mid game PvZ, immortal-sentry pushes seems to be strong enough. Are immortal and colossus used for different builds or they're just personal preference? I'm going to give it a shot. Of course, you NEED to make sure he is not doing a 1base allin if you're going for Nexus first, and again, I'd advise to go for Forge first (assuming he goes hatch first, just on the off-chance that you can do a mini-cannon rush on his natural and there is no Overlord around). Usually, the Zerg is the reactive race, but this is fairly easily scouted. You just need to check his Gas timings. If they are before 4:30, you might want to prepare for a 2base Roach, usually, Zerg gets their gas/gases around 5, even 6min marks (since if they spot your FE, they want to get a Third Hatchery asap, usually between 25-35 supply). If you are certain that the Zerg is going Macro mode (or, is doing Stephano's 12min Roach max build), you need to punish him before his economy starts kicking in (before 10min mark). Sentry/Immortal pushes are very very good at mid-game if you are certain that the Zerg (which 99% of them will) is going for a lot of Roaches, you may get 1-2 Colossi out, but you will not have enough supporting units and he can easily snipe them (especially if they don't have Thermal Lance). Unless you FF him at a good spot, but most Zergs will just back off. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
On June 06 2012 02:02 Teoita wrote: Basically yes; it's really similar to a pvz 6gate in a way. Pushes like those were first made famous by Mc so you might find something in the open seasons vods if you don't have access to GSL tickets. Basically the whole goal is to hit right before medivacs pop, using sentries to keep terran from reparing his bunker/s. I'll post a replay of myself next time i play a pvt on ladder if you want ^_^ I'd love a replay, especially if you're in Masters. I'd like to get an idea of how many units you're supposed to have at X time when you attack, so I can compare my timings with that. That's sort of the point of the 2-base all-ins: To get them down almost perfectly before moving on to 3 base play. | ||
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