EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 251
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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totalpigeon
United Kingdom162 Posts
Yeah, I'm getting the same feeling from looking at them, the main difference between the ones where you win and the ones where you lose is definitely to do with how the zerg reacts. If he reacts properly and doesn't get horribly supply blocked at any point, you seem to just be dying. In all of these though, you lose way too much of your army to poor engagements - engaging at spines, not kiting slow roaches, getting surrounded by lings, having your zealots wailing on roaches while your stalkers attack lings, stalkers rallied to their deaths etc. You really need to focus heavily on retaining your units and building them into a bigger ball while picking off bits of his - you've abandoned any hope of having a tech or economy advantage for an army advantage, and you need to maintain that advantage by keeping your unit ball stronger than his. Essentially, if the zerg reacts properly, you need to micro your ass off. And in battles of this size, losing one or two stalkers unnecessarily is a really big deal - you can and must micro low health stalkers and sentries to the back to avoid losing them, and do not waste zealots attacking into roaches if you're just poking to do damage while waiting for your next warp-in. The only time you might risk a slightly bad trade is to get a queen, because it impacts his production and lets you get ahead on the next unit round. I also feel that, if you get a decent core of stalkers up but the zerg also has a decent roach ling army, possibly having lost his third, a couple of sentry zealot warpins to support will be much more useful than adding on purely additional stalkers because they allow you to make much better trades against roach ling than you could with just lots of non-blink stalkers. Again, don't just suicide the zealots into roaches - they are there to provide an answer to a large ling round. Finally, if you get the third and a decent number of drones, but you can't finish the game at the natural, the game is not necessarily over, and you don't need to leave straight away. Consider getting out blink, +2 attack and a seventh gate and going for a follow up allin, your main is good for mining until at least 18 minutes so you have time to give it a shot and it'll be good practice for if you ever have a go at the 7gate +2 blink allin that hits around 12 minutes. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
2 gate expand is okay. It was better before the queen patch, but if they are greedy and get late roaches then you can normally kill a lot of drones at the nat or kill/cancel their third. Even with roaches you can normally get a cancel at the third. Leave at around 7:30 with mainly sentries and a few zealots. If they scout your attack then it probably isn't safe to attack blindly, but it forces them to make units at least. When I move out I normally make a robo, and then soon after make 2 more gates and a twilight council. You can get a warp prism here for harassment potential and go for an early third. | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
I played a game yesterday which I lost. The replay can be found here: http://drop.sc/190542 My question is regarding the 12:00 mark. At this point, I had just managed to fight of his initial roach attack but after this I felt kinda confused on what to do. In the replay I see that he chose to make 19 roaches. How do I read this? How do I know if he is going to try again or if I can safely take an expand? In this case I took a risk and went for the gold base. I managed to mine some from it before I lost it to his big roach/infestor attack... Some general tips on my play would also be appreciated (I always find myself floating a lot of gas when doing ffe and taking double gas at 18-20, am I not spending it correctly? Should I take only one gas?) Thanks in advance! | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 03 2012 20:48 NVRLand wrote: Gold toss here with a question about PvZ! I played a game yesterday which I lost. The replay can be found here: http://drop.sc/190542 My question is regarding the 12:00 mark. At this point, I had just managed to fight of his initial roach attack but after this I felt kinda confused on what to do. In the replay I see that he chose to make 19 roaches. How do I read this? How do I know if he is going to try again or if I can safely take an expand? In this case I took a risk and went for the gold base. I managed to mine some from it before I lost it to his big roach/infestor attack... Some general tips on my play would also be appreciated (I always find myself floating a lot of gas when doing ffe and taking double gas at 18-20, am I not spending it correctly? Should I take only one gas?) Thanks in advance! First off: when you ffe your order should be something like 14 forge, 17 nexus/gateway/cannon/pylon; going gateway first is absolutely not necessary nor useful. You can get the cannon up earlier (14 forge 17 cannon 17 nexus, or nexus then cannon then the rest) if you feel insecure (say he's opened 10-11 pool or something like that). Another nice tip is to go 17 pylon (before the nexus) in your main behind the mineral line if you scout him last on a 4player map; in that case, you should still get a cannon up in time if he's gone for a very fast pool (9 or less). Your +1 weapons should be started faster. Unless you are going for the fastest stargate possible off ffe, the first 100 gas generally goes into +1, then the next 50 in wg and the next 50-100 into a stalker or sentry depending on the build (you can find plenty on these forums). You float gas because, well, you just don't spend it. If you get the 3rd and 4th gas as fast as you did, it's common to make lots of sentries (6-8, but some people go up to 10 or even more). Sentries are the key to fighting armies as protoss, and imo it's better to lose because you fuck up your ff's than not losing while not ever casting a single ff. Your probe production was quite bad later on in the game; 13-14 minutes into a game it's very possible to have full 3base saturation (75 probes), while you were on only 50 ish probes to his 70 drones, so eventually his superior economy just runs you over. As a general guideline, a progamer maxes around 15-16 minutes when you are still only at 100 supply. Imo, always go colossi when you scout an infestation pit. Blind colossi suck if he's going mutas, but vs hydras and infestors they are really really damn good. They also help in fighting broodlords because they kill broodlings before they can do a lot of damage. Taking a gold expansion against a zerg is not particularly useful since all it gives you is more minerals for zealots, which are mostly only useful as a harass unit in pvz. You are better off taking the third, since it's easier to defend. Towards the end of the game you didn't have many production facilities to get a bigger army, and your robos were often idle. Don't bitch about balance, in any game below professional level (and arguably even there), the better player always wins. | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
On June 03 2012 21:12 Teoita wrote: First off: when you ffe your order should be something like 14 forge, 17 nexus/gateway/cannon/pylon; going gateway first is absolutely not necessary nor useful. You can get the cannon up earlier (14 forge 17 cannon 17 nexus, or nexus then cannon then the rest) if you feel insecure (say he's opened 10-11 pool or something like that). Another nice tip is to go 17 pylon (before the nexus) in your main behind the mineral line if you scout him last on a 4player map; in that case, you should still get a cannon up in time if he's gone for a very fast pool (9 or less). Your +1 weapons should be started faster. Unless you are going for the fastest stargate possible off ffe, the first 100 gas generally goes into +1, then the next 50 in wg and the next 50-100 into a stalker or sentry depending on the build (you can find plenty on these forums). You float gas because, well, you just don't spend it. If you get the 3rd and 4th gas as fast as you did, it's common to make lots of sentries (6-8, but some people go up to 10 or even more). Sentries are the key to fighting armies as protoss, and imo it's better to lose because you fuck up your ff's than not losing while not ever casting a single ff. Your probe production was quite bad later on in the game; 13-14 minutes into a game it's very possible to have full 3base saturation (75 probes), while you were on only 50 ish probes to his 70 drones, so eventually his superior economy just runs you over. As a general guideline, a progamer maxes around 15-16 minutes when you are still only at 100 supply. Imo, always go colossi when you scout an infestation pit. Blind colossi suck if he's going mutas, but vs hydras and infestors they are really really damn good. They also help in fighting broodlords because they kill broodlings before they can do a lot of damage. Taking a gold expansion against a zerg is not particularly useful since all it gives you is more minerals for zealots, which are mostly only useful as a harass unit in pvz. You are better off taking the third, since it's easier to defend. Towards the end of the game you didn't have many production facilities to get a bigger army, and your robos were often idle. Don't bitch about balance, in any game below professional level (and arguably even there), the better player always wins. Yeah, that bm was really unnecessary. I just get very frustrated with zerg and terran when I lose to 1 or 2 units :p When I'm handling zealots/stalkers/sentries/immortals/colossi and they have marine/marauder/medivacs or just roaches all game long. I tried to apologize after the game but he ignored me after a "Man, u suck" :p My ffe is quite insecure so thanks for the points on that however I don't feel like you answered my main question on how I knew if a follow attack was coming or not? Still need to work a lot on my macro it seems  | ||
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Abusion
United Kingdom184 Posts
On June 03 2012 06:46 Abusion wrote: just a quick question. If I go 1 gate robo into 3 gate robo into expand can I hold a collosus all-in. Been playing around for a bit with a practise partner and we both can't hold the natural. I personally don't like the build because its way too passive but I was just wondering if it was at all possible. it was the last post on the second to last page so would've probably been missed. anyone got a quick answer? thanks | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
On June 03 2012 06:59 Sated wrote: The Zerg will have less Drones etc. too because they can't take a third as quickly. EDIT: Does anyone have a replay of them defending against an 8 Marine/3 Hellion double-pronged harassment without taking damage? I don't particularly care if it comes before a 111 or after a 1rax FE. + Show Spoiler + As far as I can tell, this harassment hits so early that you're always going to take damage at either your natural or your main. You just don't have the units required to deal with both the 8 Marine drop and the Hellions at two different locations so early into the game. It seems like guaranteed damage for the Terran, one way or another, and that means it is broken IMO. I literally cannot remember seeing anyone defend against this without taking damage, pro or otherwise. /whine Can't find replay, but here is what you do if you scout gas: 1. Sim city (watch KiWiKaKi replays if you wanna know how to sim city vs reapers/hellions/drops) 2. Keep units in position. If you 1gate expand you will have about 1-2 sentry + zealot near the natural and 2 stalkers that should be on patrol near the most likely drop/banshee spot in your base 3. Keep watch tower with a probe, 9 times out of 10 you'll see hellions if terran does this build. Then you can just run your probes from natural to the main an dblock the ramp untill you have 1 more warpin of units to defend both places, Better to lose some mining time than probes. 4. Execute your build well - you should have 3 warpgates ready to warp in exactly when it hits. If it comes after 1 rax fe then it's too late to do any demage unless you do bad mistakes, if it's off gas build like 111 then you need to have your units in perfect position and react perfectly to not take any demage but it's possible. Create paths in your sim city that will allow probes to escape while blocking the hellions, either by making diagonal gaps or blocking the way with warping units. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 03 2012 21:34 NVRLand wrote: Yeah, that bm was really unnecessary. I just get very frustrated with zerg and terran when I lose to 1 or 2 units :p When I'm handling zealots/stalkers/sentries/immortals/colossi and they have marine/marauder/medivacs or just roaches all game long. I tried to apologize after the game but he ignored me after a "Man, u suck" :p My ffe is quite insecure so thanks for the points on that however I don't feel like you answered my main question on how I knew if a follow attack was coming or not? Still need to work a lot on my macro it seems In diamond and lower, attacks are completely unpredictable tbh (and sometimes even in master's) so you just need to consistently have a ton of shit to hold them off. In terms of reading a zerg, the two things to check out after a roach opener are his main/nat for tech (of course) third base gasses: if he takes them he's probably teching, otherwise he's highly likely he's sticking to roach/ling. It's also useful to park an observer between his 3rd and natural, where it's likely he will rally his units, to check out his composition and when he moves out. | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
On June 03 2012 06:46 Abusion wrote: just a quick question. If I go 1 gate robo into 3 gate robo into expand can I hold a collosus all-in. Been playing around for a bit with a practise partner and we both can't hold the natural. I personally don't like the build because its way too passive but I was just wondering if it was at all possible. it is possible hard but possible i m high master and defended it against gms | ||
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Abusion
United Kingdom184 Posts
On June 03 2012 21:57 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote: it is possible hard but possible i m high master and defended it against gms do you have to blind counter it? could you send me some reps if possible if not don't worry | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
On June 03 2012 22:02 Abusion wrote: do you have to blind counter it? could you send me some reps if possible if not don't worry i have to search for reps you can scout that with your observer, just scout no expo and robo support bay then build a 4. gate, cut probes put 3 put of your 2. gas and mass zealots+immortals rest is micro | ||
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sru
Poland4 Posts
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whistle
United States141 Posts
Skip to around 41 minutes, he plays a game against 1 base colo where he defends by base trading with a warp prism. There's another game somewhere around there where he does the same thing and wins too, but I can't find it. | ||
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ibo422
Belgium2844 Posts
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-eXalt
United States462 Posts
the idea of getting storm to secure a 3rd base (since its tough to attack into split templar) then switching into colossus off 3 base seems a lot better/logical than going Colossus off 2 base, and double forge, and then into templar, and taking a 3rd etc. | ||
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Mr.Bimbles
Iceland457 Posts
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 04 2012 03:00 ibo422 wrote: getting marine scv allin'd each game.. any advice besides switching to T and do the same or get godlike micro? Build stalkers, pull probes, kite, don't let the bunker get up. You don't need godly micro as long as you pull probes before your stuff starts dying. | ||
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Misuari
Singapore45 Posts
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 04 2012 22:00 Misuari wrote: I always get harrass by protoss each game by Phoenix or VR . I also get countered when i make a big push . I have some units at my base to defend the harrassment . But i find it very difficult to micro my big push and also at my base . Any tips for us beginners who needs help in multi task ? ^.^ Most of the time you don't need to micro your main army very much. I know it's hard, but try a-moving your main army (in a suitable location for your composition) and instead focus on defending the counter. | ||
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