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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
Canada13410 Posts
On April 19 2012 12:52 StevieWonder333 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 12:45 XenocideFTW wrote:On April 19 2012 12:35 StevieWonder333 wrote:
Where is the best place to download replays of Code S protoss players? Some of them release replay packs here, but you could just as easily check out the vods at gom.tv. Regardless, there are much easier replays to find from foreign players, which really probably make a difference if it's code S or NA gm at your level. I want to see the best there is. I know I'm only diamond but I wanna see a dude with 5 times my apm doing the dirty.
Sometimes, watching someone 10000x better than you, really won't help you improve since theres so much they do that you need to work on, but seeing someone better but not pro level can help a lot.
You learn smaller simpler things to implement to push you over the next skill hump kind of thing.
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Hey,
Yesterday I had a strange game on Cloud Kingdom. PvT. The Guy went no gas FE into a 5 Rax Marine only push. I can´t figure out how to hold this. I went MC´s Fe into 5 Gate Robo + Robo Bay. But he attacked at such a weird timing and just crusht my forces. Could you guys take a look and tell me what I don´t see? I guess I´ve been to greedy but. How should I scout that?
http://drop.sc/163512
Greetings.
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On April 19 2012 19:39 How2getMaster wrote:Hey, Yesterday I had a strange game on Cloud Kingdom. PvT. The Guy went no gas FE into a 5 Rax Marine only push. I can´t figure out how to hold this. I went MC´s Fe into 5 Gate Robo + Robo Bay. But he attacked at such a weird timing and just crusht my forces. Could you guys take a look and tell me what I don´t see? I guess I´ve been to greedy but. How should I scout that? http://drop.sc/163512Greetings.
I am not able to watch the replay right now but i will give you some tips. I like to position my stalkers right infront of his nautral for a while, when there is no chance for drops. This way you can kite the marines all the way to your base.
A 1 gate expand into 3 gate robo should be able to hold this push if you acuire the correct composition and use good control with guardian shield.
Also dont be afraid to sac some probes for defence, the terran is behind in tech because of this push so you can afford to lose some probes.
User was warned for this post
EDIT: After looking at the replay i spot several problems with your build and excecution.
The build was good but it was a bit greedy to get alot of early gas and robotics bay without even scouting, but you could be fine with this build aswell. The main problem was the execution of the defence, your force was mainly stalkers and stalkers can kite marines really well, try to kite the terran to kill of marines untill you feel you can engage the clump of marines directly. Also keep your sentries alive and use guardian shield while engaging the marines, that is really important.
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Thanks! Going to test this today with a friend. I am a litte bit afraid of putting my Stalkers at his front. (Marauder + Concussive) He sniped my Sentry with GS immediately and I just had Stalkers. Also Microing with Stalkers vs Mass Rines is pretty shitty at such a tiny map like Cloud. Also if I pull my Stalkers away he just walks into my mineral line.
Greetings.
EDIT:
Yeah my control wasn´t the best but it was tricky at that point. Should I scout with the first obs and then decide if I want to build a robo bay?
Also why did you get warned for the post? 
Greetings.
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On April 19 2012 12:52 StevieWonder333 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 12:45 XenocideFTW wrote:On April 19 2012 12:35 StevieWonder333 wrote:
Where is the best place to download replays of Code S protoss players? Some of them release replay packs here, but you could just as easily check out the vods at gom.tv. Regardless, there are much easier replays to find from foreign players, which really probably make a difference if it's code S or NA gm at your level. I want to see the best there is. I know I'm only diamond but I wanna see a dude with 5 times my apm doing the dirty.
http://www.twitch.tv/liquidhero
Click some VODs over here! I find VODs to be much nicer to learn from than actual Replays.
A lot of protosses stream. I've seen SKMC, NSHSage, LiquidHero and a lot of others stream. CreatorPrima, for example, is streaming right this moment!
Good luck!
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Canada13410 Posts
On April 19 2012 23:04 Sated wrote:PvZ. I don't like to FFE (except on Shakuras Plateau) so I've been opening with a 1gate FE instead. It works pretty well because the current meta-game dictates that Zerg players won't open 14/14 Speedling expand and will instead open with some sort of gasless expansion (Speedlings are the only real danger to this type of expansion). On maps like Korhal Compound and Daybreak where the third-base is far away/the natural is quite wide, I've found that a ~30 Probe 6gate all-in is incredibly powerful. I don't use the same 6gate I gave replays for in Cecil's thread because I've refined it to hit much earlier, but that's irrelevant - the point is that Zerg players who don't open with an early gas and are aiming to hit the "standard" 8:00 minute Roach timing will be hard pushed to have enough Roaches ready for your attack. On the other hand, Zerg players trying to skip Roaches will quickly find out that Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. In any case, the only reason I go for this all-in is because maps like Korhal Compound are obviously not maps where taking a 3rd base against Zerg is a viable option; you pretty much have to go for a two-base all-in. Besides, this isn't what I need help with because 6gating is pretty easy. What I need help with is my other style: On maps with viable 3rd base options, I've been attempting to take a very fast third-base as soon as Warpgates finish (~7 minutes). This negates the economic disadvantage you have compared to a FFE and allows you to have units instead of cannons for defending that third-base. This obviously requires the third-base to be within range of your natural so that proper Forcefield use will keep you safe, but that's not a problem with maps like Entombed Valley (the absolute best map for doing this) and Cloud Kingdom (possible with good map-awareness) in the map pool. Getting the third-base and defending it against all-ins is something I can do (so long as my micro is good) so that's not what I need help with... What I need help with is the best unit composition to go for. I've been blindly going for Blink Stalker/Colossus because that's the most standard way to play, but I am pretty sure White-Ra used to use this opening to transition into Stargate play (the idea is to get Phoenixes for Mutalisk defence/harassment/scouting whilst teching towards Carriers(!)). I haven't been able to find any replays of White-Ra doing this even though I'm sure I've seen him do it so I was wondering if anyone else had, or if anyone else had any input on this style?
The stargate, that late after a third is really inefficient. You won't have enough pheonixes out to deter the mutalisks. If they go for 2 base fast muta you will have 2 or 3 pheonixes when they show up with 10> mutas and that won't deter them one bit. If they go for 3 base muta, then they will have enough mutas that the small number of pheonix also don't really help.
If you want to gateway expand to 3 bases you are better off with HTs and blink stalkers since you will be upgrading your units, you will want blink to defend roach all ins anyway and the tech will be available to go for quick storm. The gas intake will really help you with the fast 3rd as well so you should be able to afford whatever you need.
If you went Star opening after forge FE and then took a fast 3rd while harassing before they get a lot of roaches or lair and roach speed done then you can definitely go to carriers if you wanted though carriers from white ra are usually part of a 2 base play from what I've seen.
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My PvT is by far the worst MU for me. I just don't understand how to get to the late game without being super greedy or super behind.
http://drop.sc/163642
I do a Nexus first, and it went off well. My econ was booming, and then I decided to 4 Gate pressure. Lost my Sentries and a fair bit of Stalkers, but I traded like 15 SCVS for that, so I thought it was OK. However, the medivacs were out, and I didn't have tech. No charge, no Templar, so the rest of the game is just humdrum with the Terran finally able to kill me after saccing Probes twice and however many units.
I guess, I should have teched quicker? I'm still so shaky on tech timings, because it seems if I go to fast, then I'm behind like 15 supply by mid game, but then if I do things like this, I end up really far behind in tech and the game becomes a formality.Killing the rocks was huge too, it left me super far behind in being able to get there to defend my third, and I lost all my mining there.
The main question is, when the hell do I tech and be able to hold a frontal assault like that? Were double upgrades too greedy? Should I have went home sooner? Should I have teched sooner? I have no idea how to play this MU.
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Hi chaps,
I think I know the answer to this question, but I thought I'd ask it anyway to make sure.
If your units fight hallucinations and know they are hallucinations (i.e. you have observers), do they automatically revert to their standard AI prioritization? In other words, they attack the real units and do it in the standard manner? Also, if your observers were late, and you did not know which unit was real and which was not during the battle, do your units "reset" to attack the real units once the observer arrives?
Cheers.
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On April 20 2012 05:19 aZealot wrote:
Hi chaps,
I think I know the answer to this question, but I thought I'd ask it anyway to make sure.
If your units fight hallucinations and know they are hallucinations (i.e. you have observers), do they automatically revert to their standard AI prioritization? In other words, they attack the real units and do it in the standard manner? Also, if your observers were late, and you did not know which unit was real and which was not during the battle, do your units "reset" to attack the real units once the observer arrives?
Cheers.
once the hallucinations are revealed, your army will prioritize the real units over them, even if your observer arrives late.
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Thanks recklessfire - thought that might be it. Lost an engagement the other day to mass Hallucination which I have not seen for a long time. So I reacted badly, mis-clicked my units and lost a game where I was considerably ahead.
Sated, do you get Hallu with your 1 Gate FE? How quickly do you get Robo and Tech? I note Nony/Tyler tends to stay on low gate number for his games but prioritizes resources into tech and upgrades.
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Canada13410 Posts
On April 20 2012 03:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 01:28 ZeromuS wrote:On April 19 2012 23:04 Sated wrote:PvZ. I don't like to FFE (except on Shakuras Plateau) so I've been opening with a 1gate FE instead. It works pretty well because the current meta-game dictates that Zerg players won't open 14/14 Speedling expand and will instead open with some sort of gasless expansion (Speedlings are the only real danger to this type of expansion). On maps like Korhal Compound and Daybreak where the third-base is far away/the natural is quite wide, I've found that a ~30 Probe 6gate all-in is incredibly powerful. I don't use the same 6gate I gave replays for in Cecil's thread because I've refined it to hit much earlier, but that's irrelevant - the point is that Zerg players who don't open with an early gas and are aiming to hit the "standard" 8:00 minute Roach timing will be hard pushed to have enough Roaches ready for your attack. On the other hand, Zerg players trying to skip Roaches will quickly find out that Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. In any case, the only reason I go for this all-in is because maps like Korhal Compound are obviously not maps where taking a 3rd base against Zerg is a viable option; you pretty much have to go for a two-base all-in. Besides, this isn't what I need help with because 6gating is pretty easy. What I need help with is my other style: On maps with viable 3rd base options, I've been attempting to take a very fast third-base as soon as Warpgates finish (~7 minutes). This negates the economic disadvantage you have compared to a FFE and allows you to have units instead of cannons for defending that third-base. This obviously requires the third-base to be within range of your natural so that proper Forcefield use will keep you safe, but that's not a problem with maps like Entombed Valley (the absolute best map for doing this) and Cloud Kingdom (possible with good map-awareness) in the map pool. Getting the third-base and defending it against all-ins is something I can do (so long as my micro is good) so that's not what I need help with... What I need help with is the best unit composition to go for. I've been blindly going for Blink Stalker/Colossus because that's the most standard way to play, but I am pretty sure White-Ra used to use this opening to transition into Stargate play (the idea is to get Phoenixes for Mutalisk defence/harassment/scouting whilst teching towards Carriers(!)). I haven't been able to find any replays of White-Ra doing this even though I'm sure I've seen him do it so I was wondering if anyone else had, or if anyone else had any input on this style? The stargate, that late after a third is really inefficient. You won't have enough pheonixes out to deter the mutalisks. If they go for 2 base fast muta you will have 2 or 3 pheonixes when they show up with 10> mutas and that won't deter them one bit. If they go for 3 base muta, then they will have enough mutas that the small number of pheonix also don't really help. If you want to gateway expand to 3 bases you are better off with HTs and blink stalkers since you will be upgrading your units, you will want blink to defend roach all ins anyway and the tech will be available to go for quick storm. The gas intake will really help you with the fast 3rd as well so you should be able to afford whatever you need. If you went Star opening after forge FE and then took a fast 3rd while harassing before they get a lot of roaches or lair and roach speed done then you can definitely go to carriers if you wanted though carriers from white ra are usually part of a 2 base play from what I've seen. You're probably right having thought about it - 2base Carrier does seem more like something White-Ra would do and I don't really want to go for any 2base Carrier play; it's a bit too fragile for my liking  With regards to this opening, what I've been doing is this: http://drop.sc/163637You'll have to excuse the late second gas (should've taken it after starting the Stalker), the supply blocks near the start and the indecision in the mid-game because I'm still feeling my way around the Twilight timing and the Robotics timing. What I'm sure of are the timings up until the third base is thrown down, and I'd probably add that I'm fairly sure about the Forge timing (although I should've chronoboosted +1 more, and the Forge should've probably been placed closer to the natural wall-off). From there, I figured lining the Twilight up with +1 finishing made sense... but Blink would've been far too late to deflect earlier Mutalisks in this particular case. I also have no way of effectively scouting until the Robotics Facility is up, so since I'm going for Sentries I should probably work Hallucination into this build somehow. Any advice would be great - like I say, I am still feeling my way around the timings since I don't have anything concrete (i.e. VODs) to work from.
I really think you should try the adonmimus opening to achieve what you want. It opens with a high ground gateway, then into a forge FE type of expo which is pretty safe. While it doesn't allow for super early aggression on the third or nat before the 3rd finishes, it does allow for a very strong timing with +1 zealots at the third base and a quick blink upgrade along with +2. you can choose to all in off of 2 base with this build if the zerg does a poor job in defending the third or you can expand behind the blink aggression. If he sticks to 2 base you can get blink faster against fast mutas than you would if you went for a 7 gate 3rd expo.
I really feel that in PvZ blink at the very least is necessary to take a third. It doesn't need to be done to take the expansion, but it should at the very least be started. If you take a third without a twilight, I do not see how you can justify the economic approach when dealing with mutas killing all your probes. Sure you have a 3rd base, but if you lose 10 probes taking the third and then another 5 or 6 because you don't have blink then you really aren't making much use of the third at all.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275
That is the link to the adonminus approach, it uses the Yuffe FFE and its pretty good, I've been messing about with it on ladder and killed quite a few zergs with it. My timings aren't very good though so the odd highish mid master ( i only lose 4 or 6 points when I lost against them) has been defending against me pretty well.
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Italy12247 Posts
True ballers gateway expand with gas in PvZ.
Anyway imo the difference between hallucination vs no hallu is how aggressive you want to be on the map. If you want deny a third base consistently NonY style while getting upgrades behind it, it's basically impossible to fit in hallucination; either get hallu and use it to scout around while you go attack with 3-4 gates worth of units (and basically nothing else at home while you are pressuring), or sac hallu but spend 250/100 on a forge and +1.
If you just want to move around the map and force a few units (say you are taking a fast ish third of your own), it's very useful.
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Does that make me a baller? Even if I Gateway expand in Gold? :p
Thanks, Sated. I'm at work, atm, and will look over the replays later.
And yeah, I've been finding the trade-off between Sentries, Forge upgrades, and Hallucination irksome in PvZ with Gate expands. It's possible to get +1 by ~9.00 (perhaps even a little earlier) and Hallu but with 4 - 5 Sentries only (depending on Stalker count). I usually go 2 Gate into Expand with a 3rd Gate and Forge for the wall-off but have been thinking of dropping the 3rd gate (like Nony) - even though I dislike walling with pylons. I think I need a faster Robo instead. I find you don't have the resources to support continuous units out of that 3rd gate (especially Stalkers) if you are also going for +1 and Hallu and not cutting probes(apart from a brief cut at 32/34 and then resuming probes when natural infrastructure is up).
Edit/ Hmmm, maybe put the second gate on the low ground - if the map allows it? The forge can follow it later for a wall.
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Hey guys, quick but maybe complicated question. I've been playing my PvZ with a 4 immortal 6 gate timing which gives me moderate success. I try to hit at around 10:00 but sometimes I fuck and hit later. However looking at the replays what kills me most of the time is positioning. I tend to have an equal if not bigger army against mostly ling roach compositions, which should get stomped on by my army, but I do not know where or how to force a favorable engagement on maps such as Ohana, Antiga or Metropolis where the Zerg can catch my army out in the open.
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EPT
