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On December 01 2011 05:47 Whitewing wrote:
Map specific question: It's Antiga Shipyard, and I spawn lower left, zerg spawns lower right. Immediately I rule out taking a natural third due to proximity to the enemy main (it always gets sieged by brood lords later). Do you have to end the game basically before late game? Every time it goes to a late game on these positions (or similar positions, with the zerg one space counter clockwise), I wind up losing bases due to being too spread out, and if I take the natural third, it just gets owned by air.
Is this just a map problem I'm going to have to deal with by going 2 base all-in every game?
Antiga allows you to take a 3rd reasonably early and without much difficulty. If in one game you lost to broodlords because their main was "too close to your 3rd," I would advocate making sure you have 1-2 stargates by the time they have greater spire rather than trying to always 2base all-in on Antiga PvZ.
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On December 01 2011 04:18 Rasera wrote:
I know my scouting is not great and I play relatively passively. My 3rd tends to be late about half the time, if the game lasts long enough.
This is more of a critique-based post, as I'm not really sure what I'm seeing is what everyone else sees. What needs the most work?
Another request would be for helpful advice on just how/what to scout after you're denied observer and probe scouting, how to harass effectively as protoss, and the difference between an all-in, and a push.
P.S. Hopefully, I'm not giving other silver players a bad reputation. If this isn't the right place for this, let me know and I can transfer it elsewhere.
I watched you vs Kuma, PvT, and saw a few things. In reply to your question, what needs the most work, I will tell you in order of highest priority. Most players play in relatively the same manner across the board, so that's why I only watched 1 replay of yours.
1. Your macro needs the most work. I get the sense that you pride yourself in macro, so please take this well because it could actually be miles better. You seem like a good macro oriented player, so here's what to do to improve:
- You get supply blocked often, reduce the amount of times that happens. Work to make it 0 times.
- You build extra gateways later than you should. If you expand early, build extra gateways earlier.
- Watch your minerals to gas ratio. Build your geysers when you need them, I saw that it took minutes on end for you to put workers in the natural geysers.
- Your pylon placement should be more coherent. Put most of them next to other buildings, like gateways. You only want a few outliers.
- Understand that when Protoss takes a third, he does it for the geysers not the minerals. You were so mineral heavy you had like a 1000-1 mineral-to-gas ratio a lot of the time, even though Protoss is most gas-intensive race in the game.
There are a few other macro things, but I think the first few points are enough. On to a few other general things:
2. Work towards something. Your game had you just building bases and fighting off pressure without any clear goal in mind. When I 1gate FE vs Terran, I know by the time the loading screen is halfway done that I want to secure my 2nd, get 3 colossus with range and 5 gateways by 12 minutes, and at that time push (not all-in, just push) while planting my 3rd base. After 3rd base I want to get High Templar and upgrades.
3. Your engagements were poorly orchistrated. Even though Terran was playing PvT incorrectly and had tanks, you threw everything you had at a few tanks that lay behind like 20-30 marines and marauders. If for some reason Terran has tanks, it means for you to expand and/or tech. Yes they're hard to engage, but they're also very hard to push with. In responding to pressure, you took all of Auir with you to stop a few reapers. Take only the necessary amount of units to stop the harass, and leave the rest at the front, anticipate a 2nd push there as well. Also, after the reapers were killed you placed 5 cannons around the buildings nearby, that was a pretty big wtf for me.
4. Work on decision making, think about a response to a problem you've faced in a game before you are facing it for the 2nd time. In a lot of cases, this preformed decision will be more educated and intuitive than something you can come up with on the spot.
All in all, just working on the supply blocking part and adding as many unit producing structures as you can use will get you much farther than you are now, good luck!
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On December 01 2011 07:49 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:47 Whitewing wrote:
Map specific question: It's Antiga Shipyard, and I spawn lower left, zerg spawns lower right. Immediately I rule out taking a natural third due to proximity to the enemy main (it always gets sieged by brood lords later). Do you have to end the game basically before late game? Every time it goes to a late game on these positions (or similar positions, with the zerg one space counter clockwise), I wind up losing bases due to being too spread out, and if I take the natural third, it just gets owned by air.
Is this just a map problem I'm going to have to deal with by going 2 base all-in every game? Antiga allows you to take a 3rd reasonably early and without much difficulty. If in one game you lost to broodlords because their main was "too close to your 3rd," I would advocate making sure you have 1-2 stargates by the time they have greater spire rather than trying to always 2base all-in on Antiga PvZ.
Ooh yeah another thing I should mention. If the zerg really wants to siege your third with broodlords they could do that by flying the corruptors there and then morph them anyway.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2011 08:43 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 07:49 tehemperorer wrote:On December 01 2011 05:47 Whitewing wrote:
Map specific question: It's Antiga Shipyard, and I spawn lower left, zerg spawns lower right. Immediately I rule out taking a natural third due to proximity to the enemy main (it always gets sieged by brood lords later). Do you have to end the game basically before late game? Every time it goes to a late game on these positions (or similar positions, with the zerg one space counter clockwise), I wind up losing bases due to being too spread out, and if I take the natural third, it just gets owned by air.
Is this just a map problem I'm going to have to deal with by going 2 base all-in every game? Antiga allows you to take a 3rd reasonably early and without much difficulty. If in one game you lost to broodlords because their main was "too close to your 3rd," I would advocate making sure you have 1-2 stargates by the time they have greater spire rather than trying to always 2base all-in on Antiga PvZ. Ooh yeah another thing I should mention. If the zerg really wants to siege your third with broodlords they could do that by flying the corruptors there and then morph them anyway.
Don't be snide, you could easily warp in stalkers or kill them off while they're morphing. It's not easy to be in the zerg's main where he's warping brood lords in, and deal with them while they move the very short distance to your third to siege it while relying on a huge gap in space to prevent stalkers from dealing with them. If your timing on void rays isn't spot on you just die, meanwhile you have to worry about holding off roach aggression on the ramp and applying pressure to zerg expansions. The proximity to their main also makes it extraordinarily vulnerable to mutalisks, and you can't take a super fast third after a FFE unless you want the zerg to just make roaches and kill you. Yeah you can get it up and operational before broods would come out, but you won't have it for more than a few minutes if the zerg really wants to kill it, and I've had this happen quite a few times now.
Is there some trick or method one can use to hold the third against broodlords from the enemy main other than killing them first or having void rays out?
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On December 01 2011 08:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 08:43 Latedi wrote:On December 01 2011 07:49 tehemperorer wrote:On December 01 2011 05:47 Whitewing wrote:
Map specific question: It's Antiga Shipyard, and I spawn lower left, zerg spawns lower right. Immediately I rule out taking a natural third due to proximity to the enemy main (it always gets sieged by brood lords later). Do you have to end the game basically before late game? Every time it goes to a late game on these positions (or similar positions, with the zerg one space counter clockwise), I wind up losing bases due to being too spread out, and if I take the natural third, it just gets owned by air.
Is this just a map problem I'm going to have to deal with by going 2 base all-in every game? Antiga allows you to take a 3rd reasonably early and without much difficulty. If in one game you lost to broodlords because their main was "too close to your 3rd," I would advocate making sure you have 1-2 stargates by the time they have greater spire rather than trying to always 2base all-in on Antiga PvZ. Ooh yeah another thing I should mention. If the zerg really wants to siege your third with broodlords they could do that by flying the corruptors there and then morph them anyway. Don't be snide, you could easily warp in stalkers or kill them off while they're morphing. It's not easy to be in the zerg's main where he's warping brood lords in, and deal with them while they move the very short distance to your third to siege it while relying on a huge gap in space to prevent stalkers from dealing with them. If your timing on void rays isn't spot on you just die, meanwhile you have to worry about holding off roach aggression on the ramp and applying pressure to zerg expansions. The proximity to their main also makes it extraordinarily vulnerable to mutalisks, and you can't take a super fast third after a FFE unless you want the zerg to just make roaches and kill you. Yeah you can get it up and operational before broods would come out, but you won't have it for more than a few minutes if the zerg really wants to kill it, and I've had this happen quite a few times now.
Zerg cannot do everything at once. Make sure you don't go past a certain time without making a stargate or two, that's the solution. Brood Lords on 3 bases is unsustainable for the player if he doesn't win outright, and if you're letting Zerg get away with 5-7 bases without ever challenging him then the BL is not the problem. If you want further help, post a replay, but you said yourself, "If your timing on void rays isn't spot on you just die." Fix that. You don't have to have the timing spot on, just make sure you are getting info on Zerg the whole game and are making smart decisions depending on what he's doing. If you're not dropping or using hallucination, observers, or stargate pressure, you are not setting yourself up for being able to scout the broodlord transition, and that's a bigger problem than BLs themselves.
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On December 01 2011 08:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 08:43 Latedi wrote:On December 01 2011 07:49 tehemperorer wrote:On December 01 2011 05:47 Whitewing wrote:
Map specific question: It's Antiga Shipyard, and I spawn lower left, zerg spawns lower right. Immediately I rule out taking a natural third due to proximity to the enemy main (it always gets sieged by brood lords later). Do you have to end the game basically before late game? Every time it goes to a late game on these positions (or similar positions, with the zerg one space counter clockwise), I wind up losing bases due to being too spread out, and if I take the natural third, it just gets owned by air.
Is this just a map problem I'm going to have to deal with by going 2 base all-in every game? Antiga allows you to take a 3rd reasonably early and without much difficulty. If in one game you lost to broodlords because their main was "too close to your 3rd," I would advocate making sure you have 1-2 stargates by the time they have greater spire rather than trying to always 2base all-in on Antiga PvZ. Ooh yeah another thing I should mention. If the zerg really wants to siege your third with broodlords they could do that by flying the corruptors there and then morph them anyway. Don't be snide, you could easily warp in stalkers or kill them off while they're morphing. It's not easy to be in the zerg's main where he's warping brood lords in, and deal with them while they move the very short distance to your third to siege it while relying on a huge gap in space to prevent stalkers from dealing with them. If your timing on void rays isn't spot on you just die, meanwhile you have to worry about holding off roach aggression on the ramp and applying pressure to zerg expansions. The proximity to their main also makes it extraordinarily vulnerable to mutalisks, and you can't take a super fast third after a FFE unless you want the zerg to just make roaches and kill you. Yeah you can get it up and operational before broods would come out, but you won't have it for more than a few minutes if the zerg really wants to kill it, and I've had this happen quite a few times now.
Not sure what you are talking about, if you do scout the broodlords sure you can take them out but if you don't, suddenly you have them in your back. Also this requires a certain amount of map control which you probably won't have if you are on three bases against zerg and he teched broodlords kind of fast. Your third should have been up for at least 5 minutes if he gets broodlords at a normal timing though. This is more than enough for it to pay off and you can easily support double stargate voidray production. Holding off roach production should also be easy because the third is so close to your natural and you can easily forcefield anything trying to attack you. Mutalisks doesn't matter either because they will go anywhere in a matter of seconds. The problem as I see it is that the travel distance is reduced but not by a lot. And it won't matter after that either because by then they will be moving around like normal and so will you.
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On December 01 2011 04:18 Rasera wrote:Hi Protoss help me thread; I'm really at a loss as to what needs the most work. I'm currently in high silver; every game I play has the opponent favoured (mostly high gold players), and this season I'm 23 - 13. Of the losses, 2 were unscouted 6 pools (Shattered Temple), and 3 were performance based issues I've been having every 10th game or so since 1.4 hit. In a straight up macro game, I can out macro my opponents with ease. For the most part, I do a 3 gate FE into 6 gate colossi, unless I scout pressure, or it's a PvP. (PvP I try to default to 3 gate robo, or 4 gate if they FFE). I'm also trying to work 1 gate FE and FFE 6 gate into my builds. I know my scouting is not great and I play relatively passively. My 3rd tends to be late about half the time, if the game lasts long enough. This is more of a critique-based post, as I'm not really sure what I'm seeing is what everyone else sees. What needs the most work? Another request would be for helpful advice on just how/what to scout after you're denied observer and probe scouting, how to harass effectively as protoss, and the difference between an all-in, and a push. All of my replays are in this link. If the link won't work, or for some reason doesn't dynamically update on the search, search for uploader or player 'Rasera' on http://www.gamereplays.org; at the time of posting, there are 33 replays up. Thanks in advance for any help and advice, Rasera P.S. Hopefully, I'm not giving other silver players a bad reputation. If this isn't the right place for this, let me know and I can transfer it elsewhere.
I read this post twice and found it really confusing and I don't know exactly what you are looking for or what trouble you are having. This is too vague-- you need to tell us which matchups you are referring too, as PvX -- X changes everything for the questinos you are asking.
I'll try to answer a few things here--- a push is generally pressuring with some troops with the intent to not win the game right there, but to retreat at some point after cuasing some economic damage & with the goal to keep the enemy on their toes so they can't expand everywhere while feeling safe that they won't be attack, and to mess with their build order / mechanics while gaining scouting information. Vs Zerg, a pressure goal is to force them to build units instead of creating drones since larva turning into units hurts their early economy since they arise from the same larva (imagine if gateways produced SCVs--- you'd want the minimal amount of zealots/stalkers so your economy can thrive). WIth a push/pressure attack, you generally are teching in the background so you can keep the enemy on their toes while you expand and tech in safety, knowing they are forced to deal with your pressure. In the higher leagues, you see more pressure whiel lower leagues tend to do more all-ins, although this is not universally true always. This is because effective pressure requires multitasking skills--- controlling your units while maintaing probe & unit production, tech, and expanding.
An all-in--- well, there are different types of them. The 4gate PvP all-in cuts probes significantly and dedicates all resources and chron boosts to getting enough early units to win the game by 8 min or less. If an all-in fails, you are genreally behind since it took a substantial dedication to prepare it. For instance, with a 7 gate blink stalker all-in.... you have built so many gates that you are somewhat financially commited to blink stalkers since if you decide to tech out of stalkers, you will have many idle gateways while you tech since you can't support 7 gateways w/ robo, upgrades, tech, probe production, etc off two bases at least. The 7 gate all-in attempts to win the game while stalker are better than roaches through the use of blink and +1/+2 weapons since later in the game stalkers without robo < roaches since upgrades scale much better with roaches making them better than stalkers, requiring immortals/collosi to win if you fail that all-in push. If you need to scale into late game, if you did not cause enough damage with your blink stalker all-in, you are behind because you will have idle gateways as you tech and expand. If you caused sufficient economic damage, you can transition out & expand so your gateways can be supported again.
You should never be totally denied observer scouting--- you just need to micro it more. If T built so many towers just to protect your observer from getting in, you can make a pretty safe bet it's a starport build imo but you can usually sneak it in. Hallucination is a great scout and the halluc pheonix is fast enough to run past a turret and get info. Also try observer speed, I find this an essential upgrade against T especially where u need fast observer to protect you from banshee.
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Dual forge vs Zerg--- I have been told many times recently this is a no no. I understand that PvZ is very gas heavy so it makes sense...Unlike PvT or PvZ, zealots don't have a large place in PvZ and stalkers have an exceptionally large place, as well as collosi/immortals/HT--- correct? Is this why PvZ is so gas heavy?
Anyway--- I still feel like Dual Forge Upgrades would be helpful-- since when is having a stronger army a bad thing? For 100 gas, less than the cost of one sentry, you can get +1 armor for all your troops, and so on. Armor is important against Mutalisks to lessen their boune attack, and is great vs hydralisks in combo with guardian shield as well as for zerglings w/ zealots. The attack is most important to get them killed in 2 hits instead of 3, but also keeping them alive longer means more hits & armor is great for small/fast attacks-- right?
That being said, I can't figure out why dual forge is a bad idea. I feel like the times I beat mass muta attacks was because I was 2/2 with guardian shield and when the muts tried to double team me with lings/banelings I was able to survive due to my armor & GS.
Does no one dual forge vs Z?
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protoss can't really play defensive in midgame in PvZ. Double forge is a defensive build in the midgame
(my opnion)
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Anytime you rely on forcefields +3 attack should be your main goal for your stalkers and colossi(!!).
Fighting muta+ling I agree with you, double forge should be worth it imo.
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To clarify, it's good to have 2 forges. But vZ you shouldn't be doing +1/+1 and then +2/+2 at the same time. It would force you to be too passive.
Double forge is good. Double forge play, is not.
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On December 01 2011 09:06 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 08:57 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 08:43 Latedi wrote:On December 01 2011 07:49 tehemperorer wrote:On December 01 2011 05:47 Whitewing wrote:
Map specific question: It's Antiga Shipyard, and I spawn lower left, zerg spawns lower right. Immediately I rule out taking a natural third due to proximity to the enemy main (it always gets sieged by brood lords later). Do you have to end the game basically before late game? Every time it goes to a late game on these positions (or similar positions, with the zerg one space counter clockwise), I wind up losing bases due to being too spread out, and if I take the natural third, it just gets owned by air.
Is this just a map problem I'm going to have to deal with by going 2 base all-in every game? Antiga allows you to take a 3rd reasonably early and without much difficulty. If in one game you lost to broodlords because their main was "too close to your 3rd," I would advocate making sure you have 1-2 stargates by the time they have greater spire rather than trying to always 2base all-in on Antiga PvZ. Ooh yeah another thing I should mention. If the zerg really wants to siege your third with broodlords they could do that by flying the corruptors there and then morph them anyway. Don't be snide, you could easily warp in stalkers or kill them off while they're morphing. It's not easy to be in the zerg's main where he's warping brood lords in, and deal with them while they move the very short distance to your third to siege it while relying on a huge gap in space to prevent stalkers from dealing with them. If your timing on void rays isn't spot on you just die, meanwhile you have to worry about holding off roach aggression on the ramp and applying pressure to zerg expansions. The proximity to their main also makes it extraordinarily vulnerable to mutalisks, and you can't take a super fast third after a FFE unless you want the zerg to just make roaches and kill you. Yeah you can get it up and operational before broods would come out, but you won't have it for more than a few minutes if the zerg really wants to kill it, and I've had this happen quite a few times now. Not sure what you are talking about, if you do scout the broodlords sure you can take them out but if you don't, suddenly you have them in your back. Also this requires a certain amount of map control which you probably won't have if you are on three bases against zerg and he teched broodlords kind of fast. Your third should have been up for at least 5 minutes if he gets broodlords at a normal timing though. This is more than enough for it to pay off and you can easily support double stargate voidray production. Holding off roach production should also be easy because the third is so close to your natural and you can easily forcefield anything trying to attack you. Mutalisks doesn't matter either because they will go anywhere in a matter of seconds. The problem as I see it is that the travel distance is reduced but not by a lot. And it won't matter after that either because by then they will be moving around like normal and so will you.
Double stargate? Screw that. By the time he's at broodlord tech you should AT LEAST have a 3rd and really should have a 4th + more bases with plenty of cannons and pylons. I would say that 4 stargates or even more is suitable for a mass tech switch in the late game. Mass VR will completely decimate all lategame Zerg Hive tech (ie. Ultras, broods). Get them upgraded and (key point here) retain your colossi, because when he switches to infestors to counter the mass voids, you better be ready.
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On December 01 2011 09:06 MooSlapper wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I read this post twice and found it really confusing and I don't know exactly what you are looking for or what trouble you are having. This is too vague-- you need to tell us which matchups you are referring too, as PvX -- X changes everything for the questinos you are asking.
I'll try to answer a few things here--- a push is generally pressuring with some troops with the intent to not win the game right there, but to retreat at some point after cuasing some economic damage & with the goal to keep the enemy on their toes so they can't expand everywhere while feeling safe that they won't be attack, and to mess with their build order / mechanics while gaining scouting information. Vs Zerg, a pressure goal is to force them to build units instead of creating drones since larva turning into units hurts their early economy since they arise from the same larva (imagine if gateways produced SCVs--- you'd want the minimal amount of zealots/stalkers so your economy can thrive). WIth a push/pressure attack, you generally are teching in the background so you can keep the enemy on their toes while you expand and tech in safety, knowing they are forced to deal with your pressure. In the higher leagues, you see more pressure whiel lower leagues tend to do more all-ins, although this is not universally true always. This is because effective pressure requires multitasking skills--- controlling your units while maintaing probe & unit production, tech, and expanding.
An all-in--- well, there are different types of them. The 4gate PvP all-in cuts probes significantly and dedicates all resources and chron boosts to getting enough early units to win the game by 8 min or less. If an all-in fails, you are genreally behind since it took a substantial dedication to prepare it. For instance, with a 7 gate blink stalker all-in.... you have built so many gates that you are somewhat financially commited to blink stalkers since if you decide to tech out of stalkers, you will have many idle gateways while you tech since you can't support 7 gateways w/ robo, upgrades, tech, probe production, etc off two bases at least. The 7 gate all-in attempts to win the game while stalker are better than roaches through the use of blink and +1/+2 weapons since later in the game stalkers without robo < roaches since upgrades scale much better with roaches making them better than stalkers, requiring immortals/collosi to win if you fail that all-in push. If you need to scale into late game, if you did not cause enough damage with your blink stalker all-in, you are behind because you will have idle gateways as you tech and expand. If you caused sufficient economic damage, you can transition out & expand so your gateways can be supported again.
You should never be totally denied observer scouting--- you just need to micro it more. If T built so many towers just to protect your observer from getting in, you can make a pretty safe bet it's a starport build imo but you can usually sneak it in. Hallucination is a great scout and the halluc pheonix is fast enough to run past a turret and get info. Also try observer speed, I find this an essential upgrade against T especially where u need fast observer to protect you from banshee.
Sorry, I know the post was vague; I honestly don't even know where to start in terms of asking for advice. Part of being in silver/gold I suppose. Perhaps I can give a bit of direction after reading a few replies.
First and foremost, I accept the fact my macro won't be the best and that improving my macro will likely give me the largest benefit and it is what I work on every day. I feel that for the level I'm playing against, my macro is above my 'skill' level, so the concern (for this post, anyways) will tend to fall into learning and getting a better feel for other aspects of the game.
Just a few questions though
PvT: By far, the common (extremely common) build is bio-tank(and sometimes viking).
1) Should I be trying to engage a Terran when they turtle up with tanks? Very few Terran at my level seem to play aggressive styles (other than a drop here and there). My biggest advantage (currently) is that I will max considerably quicker than my opponent, but pushing into a defensive Terran always results in heavy casualties. Are there ways to force a Terran out of defense?
2) When Terran have tanks and MM; should I focus tanks? focus the ball? It seems when I try to do either, I get shredded by the other. If I try to spread units out, when I get the concave, the tanks are splashing my units down. When I try to focus the tanks, the ball spearheads through my units.
3) How do I keep my probe scout alive past the 1st marine coming down; I know a telltale sign on early scouting is the first add-on on the barracks, but if that first probe dies, it takes at least 5 - 8 more minutes of game time before an observer comes out and Terran is almost guaranteed to be walled off.
PvZ:
1) How do I harass/pressure when the zerg builds tons of spine/spore crawlers?
2) When I go for all-in's; should I be going for hatcheries, or tech? or is that more of a game-by-game decision?
3) Mutalisk defense; I don't like being pinned into my bases, but I don't know how to engage while knowing the muta's are just a few seconds away. Any suggestions aside from cannons?
On December 01 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I watched you vs Kuma, PvT, and saw a few things. In reply to your question, what needs the most work, I will tell you in order of highest priority. Most players play in relatively the same manner across the board, so that's why I only watched 1 replay of yours.
1. Your macro needs the most work. I get the sense that you pride yourself in macro, so please take this well because it could actually be miles better. You seem like a good macro oriented player, so here's what to do to improve:
- You get supply blocked often, reduce the amount of times that happens. Work to make it 0 times.
- You build extra gateways later than you should. If you expand early, build extra gateways earlier.
- Watch your minerals to gas ratio. Build your geysers when you need them, I saw that it took minutes on end for you to put workers in the natural geysers.
- Your pylon placement should be more coherent. Put most of them next to other buildings, like gateways. You only want a few outliers.
- Understand that when Protoss takes a third, he does it for the geysers not the minerals. You were so mineral heavy you had like a 1000-1 mineral-to-gas ratio a lot of the time, even though Protoss is most gas-intensive race in the game.
There are a few other macro things, but I think the first few points are enough. On to a few other general things:
2. Work towards something. Your game had you just building bases and fighting off pressure without any clear goal in mind. When I 1gate FE vs Terran, I know by the time the loading screen is halfway done that I want to secure my 2nd, get 3 colossus with range and 5 gateways by 12 minutes, and at that time push (not all-in, just push) while planting my 3rd base. After 3rd base I want to get High Templar and upgrades.
3. Your engagements were poorly orchistrated. Even though Terran was playing PvT incorrectly and had tanks, you threw everything you had at a few tanks that lay behind like 20-30 marines and marauders. If for some reason Terran has tanks, it means for you to expand and/or tech. Yes they're hard to engage, but they're also very hard to push with. In responding to pressure, you took all of Auir with you to stop a few reapers. Take only the necessary amount of units to stop the harass, and leave the rest at the front, anticipate a 2nd push there as well. Also, after the reapers were killed you placed 5 cannons around the buildings nearby, that was a pretty big wtf for me.
4. Work on decision making, think about a response to a problem you've faced in a game before you are facing it for the 2nd time. In a lot of cases, this preformed decision will be more educated and intuitive than something you can come up with on the spot.
All in all, just working on the supply blocking part and adding as many unit producing structures as you can use will get you much farther than you are now, good luck!
Thanks for all the advice. The reason I take pride in my macro is it is the one consistent thing I can practice every game, and it gets better day by day. I'll always be happy to hear more criticism on macro, as it's the one thing that can always be improved.
I've never thought about that 2nd and 4th part, as it just kinda felt like blind build orders were working (symptom of low level play, i suppose). It's such a simple idea, yet it makes a lot of sense to actually do, since you put an approximate goal of having something out when. very helpful, thanks again.
For the 3rd part, should I be waiting for Terran to engage me? Is it just a matter of scouting until I see he's moving out? or trying to force him out of defensive position? Not quite sure here, but I have always had that problem.
A quick follow-up question:
1) When is a good time to add additional unit structures? Usually I try to add after I feel the effects of the expansion. Should I be adding right after I Maynard probes? after 1st warp-in? Or is it more out of experience and general game feel.
If anyone else has some additional advice; it's greatly appreciated.
Thanks again,
Rasera
P.S. Original Help me post in Spoiler Below:
+ Show Spoiler +Hi Protoss help me thread; I'm really at a loss as to what needs the most work. I'm currently in high silver; every game I play has the opponent favoured (mostly high gold players), and this season I'm 23 - 13. Of the losses, 2 were unscouted 6 pools (Shattered Temple), and 3 were performance based issues I've been having every 10th game or so since 1.4 hit. In a straight up macro game, I can out macro my opponents with ease. For the most part, I do a 3 gate FE into 6 gate colossi, unless I scout pressure, or it's a PvP. (PvP I try to default to 3 gate robo, or 4 gate if they FFE). I'm also trying to work 1 gate FE and FFE 6 gate into my builds. I know my scouting is not great and I play relatively passively. My 3rd tends to be late about half the time, if the game lasts long enough. This is more of a critique-based post, as I'm not really sure what I'm seeing is what everyone else sees. What needs the most work? Another request would be for helpful advice on just how/what to scout after you're denied observer and probe scouting, how to harass effectively as protoss, and the difference between an all-in, and a push. All of my replays are in this link. If the link won't work, or for some reason doesn't dynamically update on the search, search for uploader or player 'Rasera' on http://www.gamereplays.org; at the time of posting, there are 33 replays up. Thanks in advance for any help and advice, Rasera P.S. Hopefully, I'm not giving other silver players a bad reputation. If this isn't the right place for this, let me know and I can transfer it elsewhere.
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So I'm having trouble in Plat vs stupid shit like this
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/15804
I'm super discouraged because idk what the fuck to do and I've racked my brain too much today. Please help...
EDIT: If it's not too much trouble can you list like 5 things that I could improve on that would help my play really dramatically? Thanks.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 01 2011 13:52 SLenDeRlol wrote: So I'm having trouble in Plat vs stupid shit like this http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/15804 I'm super discouraged because idk what the fuck to do and I've racked my brain too much today. Please help... EDIT: If it's not too much trouble can you list like 5 things that I could improve on that would help my play really dramatically? Thanks.
The biggest problem with your play is that your build is unfocused. It didn't seem like you had a plan the entire game. Thus, you got a bit of everything but not enough of anything to threaten your opponent in any way.
I would recommend you finding a good build and trying to copy it for now as you're trying to learn.
Obviously, you know your macro was poor, but actually quite decent for plat. Use your chronos way better though.
You had no to very little scouting info even though you got 2 observers.
Committing an army across such a big make is like asking for it to get killed.
Also, when you post a replay, add your own commentary. All I can do is give general advice without knowing what you thought about that game.
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On December 01 2011 14:06 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 13:52 SLenDeRlol wrote: So I'm having trouble in Plat vs stupid shit like this http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/15804 I'm super discouraged because idk what the fuck to do and I've racked my brain too much today. Please help... EDIT: If it's not too much trouble can you list like 5 things that I could improve on that would help my play really dramatically? Thanks. The biggest problem with your play is that your build is unfocused. It didn't seem like you had a plan the entire game. Thus, you got a bit of everything but not enough of anything to threaten your opponent in any way. I would recommend you finding a good build and trying to copy it for now as you're trying to learn. Obviously, you know your macro was poor, but actually quite decent for plat. Use your chronos way better though. You had no to very little scouting info even though you got 2 observers. Committing an army across such a big make is like asking for it to get killed. Also, when you post a replay, add your own commentary. All I can do is give general advice without knowing what you thought about that game.
Ok so I'll comment what I think for some general tips.
Early game my FFE was super sloppy but I can work on that. After I get my expansion idk what to do, like build 6 gates immediately? take my 3rd and 4th gas? stargates? collo???
I didn't put effective pressure on my opponent, allowing him to get mutas and drones. idk how to deal with mutas and especially baneling zergling as protoss....
I feel like those were the two main fuck up stages of the game....
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On December 01 2011 13:52 SLenDeRlol wrote: So I'm having trouble in Plat vs stupid shit like this http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/15804 I'm super discouraged because idk what the fuck to do and I've racked my brain too much today. Please help... EDIT: If it's not too much trouble can you list like 5 things that I could improve on that would help my play really dramatically? Thanks.
Hi, I am a mid master (currently 850) protoss. This is my first time helping out the protoss help me thread ^______^.
I've watched your replay and here's what I found that may help you out:
1. Make more probes. Now you may think you were making them constantly, but in fact you really weren't, you had like a 2-3 second delay between several probe production, at the point where you stopped making probes, normal pros may have at least 10-15 probes above you already. So advice number one is, pre-queue your probes for constant production AND chronoboost them. You also stopped probes production too early, you actually stopped at 11 probes at your natural on minerals, you need at LEAST 16. Don't stop til you are at least 16. A more advanced tip for you is have a direction in your early game plan, if you're going to power up, then POWER UP, make as many probes as you can as fast as you can with a single hiding probe checking if he has any units/any drones at natural. If you see some more units then you can handle, then drop more cannons, Cannons should be your main defense in the super early game while you are powering up your economy.
2. Scouting. You have to get Robo earlier. Either that or get hallucination (irrevalent in your case because you didn't really ahve much sentries), or go stargate and scout with your first pheonix. The reason why this is important is because you have to know what tech he is doing; whether it be mutalisk, baneling drops, hydralisk, mass roach+burrow, fast 3rd etc. You have to know this information in order to play effectively vs zerg. Another point where scouting would have helped you is when you were about to attack into his natural and got destroyed by banelings. I mean, your observer was RIGHT there, you could have moved to the left a little and you would have seen those banes, THEN you can make the decision on whether you want to and how to engage or to back off. If I saw those banes + spines, I would have backed off personally.
3. Consider this, there's one of the OLDEST strategy in the book that is still being used today. It is the 10 minute attack with couple sentries + mass blink stalker and has +2 attack upgrades (sometimes +1 +1). I am only mentioning this for reference. Because you had your attack at 11:35-11:40min with somewhat smaller army size. There's definitely a lack in macro somewhere. I am sure you can improve on this by just making probes with chronoboost in the early game.
4. Army composition. Zealots are bad against zerg. They're only good in only a few circumstances; +1 timing attack to kill off fast 3rd base, late game base sniping, etc. A few zealots arn't bad though, but if you are looking for the most effective unit composition to deal with your opponent try using more ranged units like Stalker + Sentry + Immortals even. But better macro should have higher priority then this. Protoss are the MASTERS of engagements, you gotta learn to work almost every battle into your favor.
5. Game direction. I mean, you didn't really all in. It was 5 gate + robo. And you didn't really use your robo to help burn your resource for a bigger attack. If you just want to "push" and pull back. Then why not expand behind it? If you're going to rape him with no turning back, you should do 8 gateway, 7 gate blink +2, 6 gate+immortal, etc. If you're going to do 5 gate only, then you gotta be expanding or teching to colossus or something behind it.
There's 5 advice for you ^______^ hope this helps. If you need me to clarify anything else for you just respond xD
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On December 01 2011 14:20 SLenDeRlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:06 NrGmonk wrote:On December 01 2011 13:52 SLenDeRlol wrote: So I'm having trouble in Plat vs stupid shit like this http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/15804 I'm super discouraged because idk what the fuck to do and I've racked my brain too much today. Please help... EDIT: If it's not too much trouble can you list like 5 things that I could improve on that would help my play really dramatically? Thanks. The biggest problem with your play is that your build is unfocused. It didn't seem like you had a plan the entire game. Thus, you got a bit of everything but not enough of anything to threaten your opponent in any way. I would recommend you finding a good build and trying to copy it for now as you're trying to learn. Obviously, you know your macro was poor, but actually quite decent for plat. Use your chronos way better though. You had no to very little scouting info even though you got 2 observers. Committing an army across such a big make is like asking for it to get killed. Also, when you post a replay, add your own commentary. All I can do is give general advice without knowing what you thought about that game. Ok so I'll comment what I think for some general tips. Early game my FFE was super sloppy but I can work on that. After I get my expansion idk what to do, like build 6 gates immediately? take my 3rd and 4th gas? stargates? collo??? I didn't put effective pressure on my opponent, allowing him to get mutas and drones. idk how to deal with mutas and especially baneling zergling as protoss.... I feel like those were the two main fuck up stages of the game....
Early game FFE was sloppy? Yes, you are absolutely correct.
After you get your expo up? Well that's up to you what you want to do. All-in or macro? If you want to macro you should go straight into multiple gates with hallu, robo with obs, stargate with pheonix. Those are your scouting tools that will help take you into the mid game correctly. If you're going to all in, then make alot of gateway and go kill him ahaha xD
You don't HAVE to pressure you opponent. You forge FE, he was on two base. You guys are completely equal in all respect. I can go on forever about when and how to pressure, but majority of the time you don't need to pressure.
You can deal with Muta + banes + lings that early in the game with just alot of blink stalker. HT are actually really amazing vs all 3 of that, but a lot harder to use.
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On December 01 2011 09:38 MooSlapper wrote:
Dual forge vs Zerg--- I have been told many times recently this is a no no. I understand that PvZ is very gas heavy so it makes sense...Unlike PvT or PvZ, zealots don't have a large place in PvZ and stalkers have an exceptionally large place, as well as collosi/immortals/HT--- correct? Is this why PvZ is so gas heavy?
Anyway--- I still feel like Dual Forge Upgrades would be helpful-- since when is having a stronger army a bad thing? For 100 gas, less than the cost of one sentry, you can get +1 armor for all your troops, and so on. Armor is important against Mutalisks to lessen their boune attack, and is great vs hydralisks in combo with guardian shield as well as for zerglings w/ zealots. The attack is most important to get them killed in 2 hits instead of 3, but also keeping them alive longer means more hits & armor is great for small/fast attacks-- right?
That being said, I can't figure out why dual forge is a bad idea. I feel like the times I beat mass muta attacks was because I was 2/2 with guardian shield and when the muts tried to double team me with lings/banelings I was able to survive due to my armor & GS.
Does no one dual forge vs Z?
Armor is just not as good as attack in this match up and that's why people don't really care about it, you can always get it after 2 or 3 attack upgrades instead. But if you like double forge, don't stop. Use it until you get to a point where you lose because you didn't have that one extra sentry. You should watch HongUn's stream if you want to see this used. Usually he goes mass phoenix into voidray carrier mothership with a few HTs but sometimes he goes forge FE with an extra nexus at the natural into triple forge ^^
On December 01 2011 11:05 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 09:06 Latedi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:57 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 08:43 Latedi wrote:On December 01 2011 07:49 tehemperorer wrote:On December 01 2011 05:47 Whitewing wrote:
Map specific question: It's Antiga Shipyard, and I spawn lower left, zerg spawns lower right. Immediately I rule out taking a natural third due to proximity to the enemy main (it always gets sieged by brood lords later). Do you have to end the game basically before late game? Every time it goes to a late game on these positions (or similar positions, with the zerg one space counter clockwise), I wind up losing bases due to being too spread out, and if I take the natural third, it just gets owned by air.
Is this just a map problem I'm going to have to deal with by going 2 base all-in every game? Antiga allows you to take a 3rd reasonably early and without much difficulty. If in one game you lost to broodlords because their main was "too close to your 3rd," I would advocate making sure you have 1-2 stargates by the time they have greater spire rather than trying to always 2base all-in on Antiga PvZ. Ooh yeah another thing I should mention. If the zerg really wants to siege your third with broodlords they could do that by flying the corruptors there and then morph them anyway. Don't be snide, you could easily warp in stalkers or kill them off while they're morphing. It's not easy to be in the zerg's main where he's warping brood lords in, and deal with them while they move the very short distance to your third to siege it while relying on a huge gap in space to prevent stalkers from dealing with them. If your timing on void rays isn't spot on you just die, meanwhile you have to worry about holding off roach aggression on the ramp and applying pressure to zerg expansions. The proximity to their main also makes it extraordinarily vulnerable to mutalisks, and you can't take a super fast third after a FFE unless you want the zerg to just make roaches and kill you. Yeah you can get it up and operational before broods would come out, but you won't have it for more than a few minutes if the zerg really wants to kill it, and I've had this happen quite a few times now. Not sure what you are talking about, if you do scout the broodlords sure you can take them out but if you don't, suddenly you have them in your back. Also this requires a certain amount of map control which you probably won't have if you are on three bases against zerg and he teched broodlords kind of fast. Your third should have been up for at least 5 minutes if he gets broodlords at a normal timing though. This is more than enough for it to pay off and you can easily support double stargate voidray production. Holding off roach production should also be easy because the third is so close to your natural and you can easily forcefield anything trying to attack you. Mutalisks doesn't matter either because they will go anywhere in a matter of seconds. The problem as I see it is that the travel distance is reduced but not by a lot. And it won't matter after that either because by then they will be moving around like normal and so will you. Double stargate? Screw that. By the time he's at broodlord tech you should AT LEAST have a 3rd and really should have a 4th + more bases with plenty of cannons and pylons. I would say that 4 stargates or even more is suitable for a mass tech switch in the late game. Mass VR will completely decimate all lategame Zerg Hive tech (ie. Ultras, broods). Get them upgraded and (key point here) retain your colossi, because when he switches to infestors to counter the mass voids, you better be ready.
Uuh... No.
You don't need that crazy amount of voidrays with upgrades to deal with broodlords and I doubt you can support four of them with bases soon mining out. At around 4 voidrays you can easily deal with large amounts of brood lords and with chronoboost this goes really fast, spending another 300/300 just to get them faster is kind of a waste. The problem with going to heavy on air and colossus is that zerg will just mass a ton of corruptors when he remaxes and kill off most of it if his economy is strong enough. Hell, maybe even mutas.
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On December 01 2011 14:20 SLenDeRlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:06 NrGmonk wrote:On December 01 2011 13:52 SLenDeRlol wrote: So I'm having trouble in Plat vs stupid shit like this http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/15804 I'm super discouraged because idk what the fuck to do and I've racked my brain too much today. Please help... EDIT: If it's not too much trouble can you list like 5 things that I could improve on that would help my play really dramatically? Thanks. The biggest problem with your play is that your build is unfocused. It didn't seem like you had a plan the entire game. Thus, you got a bit of everything but not enough of anything to threaten your opponent in any way. I would recommend you finding a good build and trying to copy it for now as you're trying to learn. Obviously, you know your macro was poor, but actually quite decent for plat. Use your chronos way better though. You had no to very little scouting info even though you got 2 observers. Committing an army across such a big make is like asking for it to get killed. Also, when you post a replay, add your own commentary. All I can do is give general advice without knowing what you thought about that game. Ok so I'll comment what I think for some general tips. Early game my FFE was super sloppy but I can work on that. After I get my expansion idk what to do, like build 6 gates immediately? take my 3rd and 4th gas? stargates? collo??? I didn't put effective pressure on my opponent, allowing him to get mutas and drones. idk how to deal with mutas and especially baneling zergling as protoss.... I feel like those were the two main fuck up stages of the game....
I think what he ment was that your build didn't make much sence at all. That is getting kind of a quick Robo for an observer whilst still doing a Gateway push. Most of the time alot of good players will just do the quick 4 gate push off of a FFE to kind of scout what the zerg is doing as well as trying to snipe his third. With your build you were doing both which is kind of "overkill". In general observer scout after the FFE is a bit to late and you don't have time to react accordingly to what he's doing. I would say that you should just learn a way to FFE and then perfect it.
By that I mean you should start off always going the same build before deviating. I would recommend 13 Forge/17 Nexus and follow it up with the same build no matter what map you play. Once you've played that out like 20-30 times and you feel safe doing it that's when you can start implementing some deviations like 15 Nexus/15 Forge. That more or less the way I learned to FFE.
What you should do now is just download like 10-20 P vs Z from top level play on maps like shakuras or tal'darim and find a follow up to the FFE that you want to learn. Remember though that it's best to just pick a single build and perfect it rather then working on 4-5 follow ups at the same time.
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EPT
