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On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~
On what map other than Xel Naga can't I FFE? Also, I vetoed Xel Naga 
Temple certainly is not the easiest but doable.
Antiga works, honestly I only think Xel Naga is a Problem.
There you can sooooo kill his third, since Queens can't walk through rocks Usually I'm dead to Speedlings though, which lead me to veto it :D
Plus, when do I expand? I feel like when I do it while the Stargate is building it's soo hard to defend against Speedlings, if I do it while my Voidray is out it has to do a ton of Damage (like keeping him on 2 Base) or I have no chance of ever winning.
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On November 28 2011 20:29 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~ On what map other than Xel Naga can't I FFE? Also, I vetoed Xel Naga Temple certainly is not the easiest but doable. Antiga works, honestly I only think Xel Naga is a Problem. There you can sooooo kill his third, since Queens can't walk through rocks Usually I'm dead to Speedlings though, which lead me to veto it :D Plus, when do I expand? I feel like when I do it while the Stargate is building it's soo hard to defend against Speedlings, if I do it while my Voidray is out it has to do a ton of Damage (like keeping him on 2 Base) or I have no chance of ever winning.
Metalopolis. I don't FFE on Shattered either.
My general BO: gate, SG, gate, should have zealot and stalker out by now. sometimes this makes them think you're four-gating which works for you. VR, phoenix, and sometimes a second VR depending on queen count. from warpgates you should warp in ONLY sentries until you have maybe 6 (3 warp cycles)
from here it's kinda like a 3 gate expo where you get your nexus up, get a forge semi-wall, keep your sentries defensive on the ramp until you can finish the wall-off. i usually get a robo up at around this point. if he doesn't go hydras you can do a nice timing with the sentries and stalkers because you'll have an obs out. also if he does rush hydras and you don't have colossi with range at this point you can delay the push for SO long with FFs.
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On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~
This sounds interesting. I hate FFE, and I really want a standard opening which I can use on every map, just so I can keep my focus on a specific build. I have been using 3 gate sentry expo, but I find it so hard to deny Zerg's 3rd, and so often have my own 3rd denied, that I nearly always find myself behind in the midgame. Stargate play is something I really want to try to allow me to safely pressure a zerg.
Getting 2 gates and a Stargate before expand sounds like it would have to do quite a lot of damage to avoid being behind though? Is it worth rushing that fast to a Stargate, or is a 1-gate expand, into 3 gates and a Stargate (as in Huargh's Mothership build) a safer option?
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On November 28 2011 22:57 Mr Pink wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~ This sounds interesting. I hate FFE, and I really want a standard opening which I can use on every map, just so I can keep my focus on a specific build. I have been using 3 gate sentry expo, but I find it so hard to deny Zerg's 3rd, and so often have my own 3rd denied, that I nearly always find myself behind in the midgame. Stargate play is something I really want to try to allow me to safely pressure a zerg. Getting 2 gates and a Stargate before expand sounds like it would have to do quite a lot of damage to avoid being behind though? Is it worth rushing that fast to a Stargate, or is a 1-gate expand, into 3 gates and a Stargate (as in Huargh's Mothership build) a safer option?
2-gate stargate is a pretty popular build I think. O.O it's pretty much a 3-gate sentry expo, just a little slower, and you get map control.
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On November 28 2011 22:41 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 20:29 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~ On what map other than Xel Naga can't I FFE? Also, I vetoed Xel Naga Temple certainly is not the easiest but doable. Antiga works, honestly I only think Xel Naga is a Problem. There you can sooooo kill his third, since Queens can't walk through rocks Usually I'm dead to Speedlings though, which lead me to veto it :D Plus, when do I expand? I feel like when I do it while the Stargate is building it's soo hard to defend against Speedlings, if I do it while my Voidray is out it has to do a ton of Damage (like keeping him on 2 Base) or I have no chance of ever winning. Metalopolis. I don't FFE on Shattered either. My general BO: gate, SG, gate, should have zealot and stalker out by now. sometimes this makes them think you're four-gating which works for you. VR, phoenix, and sometimes a second VR depending on queen count. from warpgates you should warp in ONLY sentries until you have maybe 6 (3 warp cycles) from here it's kinda like a 3 gate expo where you get your nexus up, get a forge semi-wall, keep your sentries defensive on the ramp until you can finish the wall-off. i usually get a robo up at around this point. if he doesn't go hydras you can do a nice timing with the sentries and stalkers because you'll have an obs out. also if he does rush hydras and you don't have colossi with range at this point you can delay the push for SO long with FFs.
Can it stand against mass Speedling agression? The void ray won't help and you have less Units than with 3Gate expansion (and even with that it is pretty hard to defend against a good Zerg)
I only remember Protoss being trapped on one base untill they give up/die doing this, unless Zerg made a mistake and had no AA or did a Roach all-in.
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Any suggested 1v1 builds for PvZ and PvT that can also be used in 2v2 games for practicing mechanics? Basically, something that would be good for practicing mechanics while I play 2v2 games with college buddies until I get to the level, i.e., Masters?, at which strategy becomes more important in 1v1 games.
I find that PvP builds have been working well when playing in team games with friends, but FFE and 1 Gate FE don't seem viable in team games when the other team goes for any sort of coordinated rush or resource pooling strategy.
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On November 28 2011 23:35 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:41 mizU wrote:On November 28 2011 20:29 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~ On what map other than Xel Naga can't I FFE? Also, I vetoed Xel Naga Temple certainly is not the easiest but doable. Antiga works, honestly I only think Xel Naga is a Problem. There you can sooooo kill his third, since Queens can't walk through rocks Usually I'm dead to Speedlings though, which lead me to veto it :D Plus, when do I expand? I feel like when I do it while the Stargate is building it's soo hard to defend against Speedlings, if I do it while my Voidray is out it has to do a ton of Damage (like keeping him on 2 Base) or I have no chance of ever winning. Metalopolis. I don't FFE on Shattered either. My general BO: gate, SG, gate, should have zealot and stalker out by now. sometimes this makes them think you're four-gating which works for you. VR, phoenix, and sometimes a second VR depending on queen count. from warpgates you should warp in ONLY sentries until you have maybe 6 (3 warp cycles) from here it's kinda like a 3 gate expo where you get your nexus up, get a forge semi-wall, keep your sentries defensive on the ramp until you can finish the wall-off. i usually get a robo up at around this point. if he doesn't go hydras you can do a nice timing with the sentries and stalkers because you'll have an obs out. also if he does rush hydras and you don't have colossi with range at this point you can delay the push for SO long with FFs. Can it stand against mass Speedling agression? The void ray won't help and you have less Units than with 3Gate expansion (and even with that it is pretty hard to defend against a good Zerg) I only remember Protoss being trapped on one base untill they give up/die doing this, unless Zerg made a mistake and had no AA or did a Roach all-in.
Ya I agree with this. There's a reason why 1base stargate builds have gone out of style: they don't really work in today's metagame. Its much more effective to just play it safe on maps like metalopolis and xnc. Just 1 gate expand, and if he does that stupid mass ling aggression, throw down 2 more gates, and cancel the nexus if need be. Its not a huge deal, he made a lot of lings which could've been drones. Then you should just be able to 5 gate him or at least kill his 3rd.
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Hey guys,
Do you do anything in PvZ to try and force the zerg player to go towards roaches in the midgame? I'm trying to better understand the thought process zerg players use when deciding to go for roaches or muta/ling. I almost always open with a 1 or 3 gate expand, and when I scout during the midgame, I never seem to see the same thing around the 8-10 minute mark. I'm diamond league, if that matters. But it shouldn't.
Thanks!
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Guys could anyone link me (or eventually post me if you don't mind) an effective guide on how a 7 gate +1 push works (or 6 gate is fine too)? I can assume it's based off of a FFE and well you build 7(or 6) gates and research +1 attack and then push  But I have not for the life of me managed to find a proper guide about it, maybe some kind of build order, a "pro"-"con" evaluation etc. Ofc replays are even better, but I would really need a 'standard' build not something changed on the run, or delayed because of something else happened etc.
Any help would be greatly appreciated :brotoss:
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On November 28 2011 23:35 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 22:41 mizU wrote:On November 28 2011 20:29 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~ On what map other than Xel Naga can't I FFE? Also, I vetoed Xel Naga Temple certainly is not the easiest but doable. Antiga works, honestly I only think Xel Naga is a Problem. There you can sooooo kill his third, since Queens can't walk through rocks Usually I'm dead to Speedlings though, which lead me to veto it :D Plus, when do I expand? I feel like when I do it while the Stargate is building it's soo hard to defend against Speedlings, if I do it while my Voidray is out it has to do a ton of Damage (like keeping him on 2 Base) or I have no chance of ever winning. Metalopolis. I don't FFE on Shattered either. My general BO: gate, SG, gate, should have zealot and stalker out by now. sometimes this makes them think you're four-gating which works for you. VR, phoenix, and sometimes a second VR depending on queen count. from warpgates you should warp in ONLY sentries until you have maybe 6 (3 warp cycles) from here it's kinda like a 3 gate expo where you get your nexus up, get a forge semi-wall, keep your sentries defensive on the ramp until you can finish the wall-off. i usually get a robo up at around this point. if he doesn't go hydras you can do a nice timing with the sentries and stalkers because you'll have an obs out. also if he does rush hydras and you don't have colossi with range at this point you can delay the push for SO long with FFs. Can it stand against mass Speedling agression? The void ray won't help and you have less Units than with 3Gate expansion (and even with that it is pretty hard to defend against a good Zerg) I only remember Protoss being trapped on one base untill they give up/die doing this, unless Zerg made a mistake and had no AA or did a Roach all-in.
The thing is with the void ray out, zerg has to defend. They have to put minerals into spores or queens that won't be going into lings. They'lll have less lings then they would if you did a 3-gate expo. That's why it's safe. If you keep your zealots, stalker and sentries in your ramp, you're fine.
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On November 28 2011 22:41 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 20:29 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~ On what map other than Xel Naga can't I FFE? Also, I vetoed Xel Naga Temple certainly is not the easiest but doable. Antiga works, honestly I only think Xel Naga is a Problem. There you can sooooo kill his third, since Queens can't walk through rocks Usually I'm dead to Speedlings though, which lead me to veto it :D Plus, when do I expand? I feel like when I do it while the Stargate is building it's soo hard to defend against Speedlings, if I do it while my Voidray is out it has to do a ton of Damage (like keeping him on 2 Base) or I have no chance of ever winning. Metalopolis. I don't FFE on Shattered either. My general BO: gate, SG, gate, should have zealot and stalker out by now. sometimes this makes them think you're four-gating which works for you. VR, phoenix, and sometimes a second VR depending on queen count. from warpgates you should warp in ONLY sentries until you have maybe 6 (3 warp cycles) from here it's kinda like a 3 gate expo where you get your nexus up, get a forge semi-wall, keep your sentries defensive on the ramp until you can finish the wall-off. i usually get a robo up at around this point. if he doesn't go hydras you can do a nice timing with the sentries and stalkers because you'll have an obs out. also if he does rush hydras and you don't have colossi with range at this point you can delay the push for SO long with FFs.
Do you have any replays of this build? It would be nice to see how you work the timings on everything after it is all tuned out. I too want to be able to use more stargate builds cause i feel like if i dont pressure zerg in any way then I am completely out macro'd by droning too hard.
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On November 29 2011 03:13 RehnFreemark wrote:Guys could anyone link me (or eventually post me if you don't mind) an effective guide on how a 7 gate +1 push works (or 6 gate is fine too)? I can assume it's based off of a FFE and well you build 7(or 6) gates and research +1 attack and then push But I have not for the life of me managed to find a proper guide about it, maybe some kind of build order, a "pro"-"con" evaluation etc. Ofc replays are even better, but I would really need a 'standard' build not something changed on the run, or delayed because of something else happened etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated :brotoss:
This is the closest thing I got, but its a 7 gate robo +1 timing attack which is pretty decent I thought.
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So--- you scout a tech lab. Most start with their first unit as a zealot, then second a stlaker. This way you can handle maurader pressure if it comes. However, if you go zealot first you are risking reapers, and if you go stalker first you are vulnerable to pressure. The solution seems to be staying in your base but then you aren't scouting with your stalker which I have always found to be essential.
How can you defend against mauraders, reapers, AND scout? It seems like a coinflip situation, once you scout tech lab
PS. Is this why some 1 gate FE's suggest 3 units before FE? zealot stalker stalker? It makes sense I suppose. When I play Terran and scout HuK 1 gate FE, I'll just grab a quick reaper I guess.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 29 2011 16:18 MooSlapper wrote:
So--- you scout a tech lab. Most start with their first unit as a zealot, then second a stlaker. This way you can handle maurader pressure if it comes. However, if you go zealot first you are risking reapers, and if you go stalker first you are vulnerable to pressure. The solution seems to be staying in your base but then you aren't scouting with your stalker which I have always found to be essential.
How can you defend against mauraders, reapers, AND scout? It seems like a coinflip situation, once you scout tech lab
PS. Is this why some 1 gate FE's suggest 3 units before FE? zealot stalker stalker? It makes sense I suppose. When I play Terran and scout HuK 1 gate FE, I'll just grab a quick reaper I guess.
You mean tech lab before marine? Then just go zealot stalker stalker. If he opens reaper, it'll be a long while before his reaper gets to your main, way enough time for even 1 zealot and 2 stalkers to build if you chorno them.
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At what point after a 1 gate FE into 3 gateways should I be throwing up my 4th and 5th gateways? Currently I go 1 Gate expand then up to 3 gates. Get my robo and robo bay and then sort of add on my 4th and 5th when i have time. Is there a set time where i should be dropping down those gateways? I always feel like I don't have enough production against 2 base timings from terran but I never feel like I can spare the 300 minerals to get those 2 gates up.
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On November 29 2011 17:55 Tazerenix wrote:
At what point after a 1 gate FE into 3 gateways should I be throwing up my 4th and 5th gateways? Currently I go 1 Gate expand then up to 3 gates. Get my robo and robo bay and then sort of add on my 4th and 5th when i have time. Is there a set time where i should be dropping down those gateways? I always feel like I don't have enough production against 2 base timings from terran but I never feel like I can spare the 300 minerals to get those 2 gates up.
As soon as your 2 bases are getting near saturation. When you start noticing you are building pylons/units at every warp, teching, and still have $ to spare, that is naturally a good time to build more gateways. Gateways are my emergency mineral dump if I find myself with too much mineral, and after a warp and building pylons I am still heavy on mineral & I have enough tech for the moment. I feel like around 8 minutes is a good time to add more gateways. One of the biggest mistakes a Protoss player can make is to not take advantage of extra gateways. Some players only build enough gateways to perfectly finance every warp & have $ to spre on tech, etc, but I feel like the more gateways the better. This is because if you make a mistake and lose your army, extra gateways is protection allowing you to build up your units again. Also, late game I am always safr from drops because I have 14+ gateways--- always enough to clean up any drop with ease.
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Somehow, an expo for 400 mineral seems a LOT more expensive than warping in 4 zealots...
PvZ I often findf myself doing early zealot rushes, but spine crawlers, queens, mixed with creep and zerglings usually does minimal damage. I think about this...
if you forgo sacrificing troops which seem disposable, but really cost a lot of money--- could u not just grab a quick 3rd urself? Like, especially if you see a 15 hatch. WOuldn't that keep you up with their economy despite them "droning" and inevitably give u the advantage? I get the problem could be when they grab ther quick 4th and dont need to build more drones, adn start pumping massive amounts of units while u are trying to fill up your bases with workers...
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On November 29 2011 18:28 MooSlapper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:55 Tazerenix wrote:
At what point after a 1 gate FE into 3 gateways should I be throwing up my 4th and 5th gateways? Currently I go 1 Gate expand then up to 3 gates. Get my robo and robo bay and then sort of add on my 4th and 5th when i have time. Is there a set time where i should be dropping down those gateways? I always feel like I don't have enough production against 2 base timings from terran but I never feel like I can spare the 300 minerals to get those 2 gates up. As soon as your 2 bases are getting near saturation. When you start noticing you are building pylons/units at every warp, teching, and still have $ to spare, that is naturally a good time to build more gateways. Gateways are my emergency mineral dump if I find myself with too much mineral, and after a warp and building pylons I am still heavy on mineral & I have enough tech for the moment. I feel like around 8 minutes is a good time to add more gateways. One of the biggest mistakes a Protoss player can make is to not take advantage of extra gateways. Some players only build enough gateways to perfectly finance every warp & have $ to spre on tech, etc, but I feel like the more gateways the better. This is because if you make a mistake and lose your army, extra gateways is protection allowing you to build up your units again. Also, late game I am always safr from drops because I have 14+ gateways--- always enough to clean up any drop with ease.
Yea, In the late game i'll have upwards of 20 gateways to reenforce. Super helpful
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On November 29 2011 18:44 Tazerenix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 18:28 MooSlapper wrote:On November 29 2011 17:55 Tazerenix wrote:
At what point after a 1 gate FE into 3 gateways should I be throwing up my 4th and 5th gateways? Currently I go 1 Gate expand then up to 3 gates. Get my robo and robo bay and then sort of add on my 4th and 5th when i have time. Is there a set time where i should be dropping down those gateways? I always feel like I don't have enough production against 2 base timings from terran but I never feel like I can spare the 300 minerals to get those 2 gates up. As soon as your 2 bases are getting near saturation. When you start noticing you are building pylons/units at every warp, teching, and still have $ to spare, that is naturally a good time to build more gateways. Gateways are my emergency mineral dump if I find myself with too much mineral, and after a warp and building pylons I am still heavy on mineral & I have enough tech for the moment. I feel like around 8 minutes is a good time to add more gateways. One of the biggest mistakes a Protoss player can make is to not take advantage of extra gateways. Some players only build enough gateways to perfectly finance every warp & have $ to spre on tech, etc, but I feel like the more gateways the better. This is because if you make a mistake and lose your army, extra gateways is protection allowing you to build up your units again. Also, late game I am always safr from drops because I have 14+ gateways--- always enough to clean up any drop with ease. Yea, In the late game i'll have upwards of 20 gateways to reenforce. Super helpful
Oh yes---- and never put all your gateways in one base. Always use gateways to form walls in your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. This way if your main base is under siege you stil have production capabilities. If I have TONS of mineral and a base race is possible, I even drop another cyb core. I tend to do this a lot vs Zerg--- gateways with cannons behind them make awesome anti roach/hydra/ling defense while helping you as well.
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Vs Roaches, does it really make sense to pump out massive amounts of immortals? I Feel like in a tech switch situation collosi will always help more than immortals... immortals suck against hydras, lings, brood lords (collosi are critical to keep the broodlings at bay while ur blink stalkers get to work), banelings,and pretty much everything Zerg has except Roach, structures, and Ultralisks (which Immortals STILL suck against... Ultras beat an immortal 1v1 and there's no way you can keep up immortal production off a few robos (pretty rare I see more than even 2) vs the larva of 6 hatcheries. I feel the only way to really defeeat hive tech is with stargate at that point, but collosi help.
So--- I think it makes sense to just get 2 or 3 immortals before teching to collosi, if that? Once you get 3+ collosi they really whoop ass vs roaches too in combo with stalkers/sentries.... I guess corruptor vulnerability is the only real downside.
Second-- the zealot. What do u guys think about zealots vs roaches when used in combo with stalkers, to form a frontal wall? Aren't they pretty cost effective when not being kited, and a roach kiting zealots w/ stalker support is just retarded (stalkers will pwn them). How about zealots vs hydras?? Does it make sense? I tend to not make zealots except vs lings or to snipe hatcheries off proxy pylons, but maybe I should. What u guys think?
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