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Need help with some mid-game decision making and maybe some early game builds in PvT.I am a low masters and he is a high diamond.Thought process in spoiler.
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+ Show Spoiler +Scouted far positions so got second gas for a macro game.
Saw rines at ramp so i figured tech or expand.Should i have waited and built second gas now?
Saw first marauder so i figured bio play and no banshee or heavy tech.Maybe wait til i scout more before i throw down second gas?
Should i have skipped immortals and went for a fast colossus?
Should i have tried to fight and not cancel the nexus since it put me so far behind?In the end i just figured i was to far behind and just went all-in
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On November 28 2011 05:30 Jericho34 wrote:Need help with some mid-game decision making and maybe some early game builds in PvT.I am a low masters and he is a high diamond.Thought process in spoiler. [url blocked] + Show Spoiler +Scouted far positions so got second gas for a macro game.
Saw rines at ramp so i figured tech or expand.Should i have waited and built second gas now?
Saw first marauder so i figured bio play and no banshee or heavy tech.Maybe wait til i scout more before i throw down second gas?
Should i have skipped immortals and went for a fast colossus?
Should i have tried to fight and not cancel the nexus since it put me so far behind?In the end i just figured i was to far behind and just went all-in
First off, you probably should never get your second gas based on the position of your opponent. You just are not that good. In your build, you should either get a second gas and do something with it, or dont get it and do something with that. Its really not a "if my opponent is far away then I get my second gas" kind of question. Its a "Do i want my second gas for the strategy I want to open with". And besides, getting your second gas for "macro" isnt entirely consistent. You would get a second gas to tech, or put on some kind of sentry pressure.
Its extremely good you poked and saw the marines, thats great intel, but in your post, you make the wrong read (in game you do fine). You saw a marauder, and THAT many marines. Its a 2 or 3 rax no doubt. But if you just saw the rines, Like, 350 minerals (or 400 I think you killed a rine) is way to much to invest if the T is expoing or teching. To make a read of an expo on a ramp, 2, 3 or 4 MAX. If it is tech, there will ALWAYS be a bunker. If there isnt and he still is getting a banshee, its something crazy and you should be worried. And the question of your second gas, should not be made on a "what is my opponent doing" basis right now at your skill level. Just get it when YOU want.
Either immortals or Collossus are fine choices. I like immortal better, because you can expand easier off that, and you still have that extra power. With colossus, you are teching further, and putting yourself behind time wise. I like the immortals, good decision.
And to be honest, you needed to cancel. Maybe let him attack it a bit and then cancel but it is good what you did. You wernt really behind actually. You just expand, add a few more sentries (3) and put on some pressure. You did not need to go all in AT ALL. Like if you had 3 more FF with that attack you put on and not tried to kill kill kill, you could have done some decent damage to his army and backed off. And really, with him investing that much in units, his economy was not fantastic. Or to a point where he has a huge lead.
So basically, you wernt behind really. Or you wernt behind to where your only chance was all in. Just expand again, get 6 to 8 sentries, and with all those immos and stalkers just put on pressure and you end up even if not ahead. Also, make probes. Like I didnt really look at it, but you were a little more behind than you should of been. If you were making probes the ENTIRE time all that was happening. You are more than fine.
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Thank you very much RodrigoX.
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I switched to toss at the beginning of season 4 and I'm in diamond improving pretty quickly but pvp is really holding me back. I have no idea what to do. Nothing feels safe. Can anyone please recommend a safe build for me to focus on?
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On November 28 2011 07:40 LambtrOn wrote:
I switched to toss at the beginning of season 4 and I'm in diamond improving pretty quickly but pvp is really holding me back. I have no idea what to do. Nothing feels safe. Can anyone please recommend a safe build for me to focus on?
3 gate blink stalkers. While researching blink or making twlight council, make robo and 1 ob. When Blink is done, ob should be out as well.
very safe...if you see them taking expo, go kill them. Make sure to blink stalkers on engagement and focus fire immortals or colossus.
If they turtle inside their base, contain and make your own expo.
I think this is the new trend in pvp ---> Blink stalkers...at least in pro games...
But do try 4 gates sometime on no ramp maps ^___^. It can be pretty fun hehe
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How do you scout early game? Terran has scan, zerg has overlords. What can protoss do? Cyber core is needed for wg, robo is way too early.
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 28 2011 07:40 LambtrOn wrote:
I switched to toss at the beginning of season 4 and I'm in diamond improving pretty quickly but pvp is really holding me back. I have no idea what to do. Nothing feels safe. Can anyone please recommend a safe build for me to focus on?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772
Hard build to master, but it's hands down the best build for pvp at the moment, since it has answers for anything your opponent can throw at you.
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On November 28 2011 07:40 LambtrOn wrote:
I switched to toss at the beginning of season 4 and I'm in diamond improving pretty quickly but pvp is really holding me back. I have no idea what to do. Nothing feels safe. Can anyone please recommend a safe build for me to focus on?
The blink observer build (mentioned above) is hard to learn, but I find that it is a lot more fun to do than any other build. It's not the build that gives me my highest win-rate in PvP (prolly cuz it takes so much refining), but I recommend it because it allows you to be a way more active player (than say a colossus build), and allows you to practice your decision making, your multitasking, and your micro.
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On November 28 2011 08:01 Kluey wrote:
How do you scout early game? Terran has scan, zerg has overlords. What can protoss do? Cyber core is needed for wg, robo is way too early.
Active Probescout, looking for proxies, identifying Gas Timing and then continously poking his front to count Units. The other part is, that your Opening has to be robust enough to either deal with early Biopressure blindly or flexible enough to react to it.
If you Fast Expanded its generally a good idea to increase your Gateway count (~6) after 2 Rax Timing by actually not producing out of them until its needed. That way you are safe against most fast pushes even without knowledge about the exact Build. Eventual Observer tells you everything you need to know afterwards.
Other approach is to FE and immediately get aggressive to force your opponent to show his hand.
Either way, you should FE every time imho, that way you are equal or ahead no matter what T does.
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On November 28 2011 09:59 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:01 Kluey wrote:
How do you scout early game? Terran has scan, zerg has overlords. What can protoss do? Cyber core is needed for wg, robo is way too early. Active Probescout, looking for proxies, identifying Gas Timing and then continously poking his front to count Units. The other part is, that your Opening has to be robust enough to either deal with early Biopressure blindly or flexible enough to react to it. If you Fast Expanded its generally a good idea to increase your Gateway count (~6) after 2 Rax Timing by actually not producing out of them until its needed. That way you are safe against most fast pushes even without knowledge about the exact Build. Eventual Observer tells you everything you need to know afterwards. Other approach is to FE and immediately get aggressive to force your opponent to show his hand. Either way, you should FE every time imho, that way you are equal or ahead no matter what T does.
Probe scout is denied by speedling or a marine patrolling on the ramp.
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What are some good cheese builds vs greedy builds? Other than the cannon rush.
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On November 28 2011 13:08 KitKat wrote:
What are some good cheese builds vs greedy builds? Other than the cannon rush.
Depends on the greedy build. 15 hatch, nothing except cannon rushing and 2 gating really.
Command center first can be easily punished with a chronod 2 zeals or stalker zealot. Instead of cheesing, you should just take a fast nexus when you scout it.
On November 28 2011 13:07 Kluey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 09:59 Xanatoss wrote:On November 28 2011 08:01 Kluey wrote:
How do you scout early game? Terran has scan, zerg has overlords. What can protoss do? Cyber core is needed for wg, robo is way too early. Active Probescout, looking for proxies, identifying Gas Timing and then continously poking his front to count Units. The other part is, that your Opening has to be robust enough to either deal with early Biopressure blindly or flexible enough to react to it. If you Fast Expanded its generally a good idea to increase your Gateway count (~6) after 2 Rax Timing by actually not producing out of them until its needed. That way you are safe against most fast pushes even without knowledge about the exact Build. Eventual Observer tells you everything you need to know afterwards. Other approach is to FE and immediately get aggressive to force your opponent to show his hand. Either way, you should FE every time imho, that way you are equal or ahead no matter what T does. Probe scout is denied by speedling or a marine patrolling on the ramp.
You have to poke with units. Protoss has beefier units than the other races' early T1. Poke with stalkers against terran and zealots against zerg.
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On November 28 2011 02:55 FluXen wrote:
What are good ways on harassing the zerg after a FFE, i always feel as if i am miles behind because all my harass can be stop so easily making me more behind
I tend to do as follows--- scout with a probe and see if they are on 1, 2 or 3 bases. If on 1 or 2 bases, no need to harass really. Chrono probes and you should be ahead, and likely you'll need to drop 2 more cannons (4-5 total) and chrono out qiuck sentries/stalkers to defend a roach bust.
If they are on three bases, build some proxy pylons near the 3rd base. Once you get warpgate up, send in a small army to poke at his natural and simultaniosuly warp in a round of zealots to attack his 3rd. You can also just warp in zealots/stalkers from that pylon to shoot at his probes, take out his queen, etc. If you do stalkers, do NOT lose any of them--- you must be very careful with your gas units if you want to stay ahead.
Sometimes simpily marching around the map with your army, past watchtowers, is all you have to do--- hel'l think you are attackign and build troops. You do not need to feel pressured to lose troops by sending in small armies when you can't afford too. If he has troops guarding, than you don't need to pressure him--- simply macro your way until you have an army capable of defeating his army. Many Toss players feel they need to pressure pressure pressure but it is only the case if Zerg is just sitting around droning.
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On November 28 2011 13:34 MooSlapper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 02:55 FluXen wrote:
What are good ways on harassing the zerg after a FFE, i always feel as if i am miles behind because all my harass can be stop so easily making me more behind
I tend to do as follows--- scout with a probe and see if they are on 1, 2 or 3 bases. If on 1 or 2 bases, no need to harass really. Chrono probes and you should be ahead, and likely you'll need to drop 2 more cannons (4-5 total) and chrono out qiuck sentries/stalkers to defend a roach bust. If they are on three bases, build some proxy pylons near the 3rd base. Once you get warpgate up, send in a small army to poke at his natural and simultaniosuly warp in a round of zealots to attack his 3rd. You can also just warp in zealots/stalkers from that pylon to shoot at his probes, take out his queen, etc. If you do stalkers, do NOT lose any of them--- you must be very careful with your gas units if you want to stay ahead. Sometimes simpily marching around the map with your army, past watchtowers, is all you have to do--- hel'l think you are attackign and build troops. You do not need to feel pressured to lose troops by sending in small armies when you can't afford too. If he has troops guarding, than you don't need to pressure him--- simply macro your way until you have an army capable of defeating his army. Many Toss players feel they need to pressure pressure pressure but it is only the case if Zerg is just sitting around droning.
Does that mean you usually have 2 cannons before you scout?
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On November 28 2011 13:44 mizU wrote:
Does that mean you usually have 2 cannons before you scout?
Well--- I scout at 9 food after my first pylon as an initial scout, but am referring to future scouts after thae. Once my FFE is setup (forge, gateway, possible cyb cor blocking choke, nexus built at natural), I have 2 cannons up to defend the FFE while teching.
You need to continue scouting how many bases Zerg has--- if he has 1 base or 2 base, he is likely going to all in you so you need to drop additional cannons. If Zerg is droning on 2 bases and not preparing an all-in, he likely does not know how to playu well as you will sky rocket ahead and can simply tech and win. IF he is prepping an allin, however, then get additinoal cannons up-- total of 4-5 and make sure you have a complete seal. You will be far ahead at the end of the push as he will have few drones and only 2 bases. --
Most early thirds go down sometime between 6-8 minutes (I believe) so while you are building your extra gateways, and whatever tech you are building, try to have a probe running around scouting and hiding a couple pylons around the map. It can be hard if Zerg goes for speedlings & is aggressive with them, though, as he may find your pylons & deny scouting. If this is the case, either tech to hallucination & get sentries charging energy or get a robo for observers. Since I often go for blink stalkers, I tend to delay my robo a little bit, because if they are going Muta/Ling you don't necessarily need a robo right away. Robo is amazing vs Roach/Hydra and for observers, but wont help you much if it's a Mtua/Ling mass but blink stalkers help no matter what, so I tend to start with them. Others will disgaree though
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On November 28 2011 13:53 MooSlapper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 13:44 mizU wrote:
Does that mean you usually have 2 cannons before you scout? Well--- I scout at 9 food after my first pylon as an initial scout, but am referring to future scouts after thae. Once my FFE is setup (forge, gateway, possible cyb cor blocking choke, nexus built at natural), I have 2 cannons up to defend the FFE while teching. You need to continue scouting how many bases Zerg has--- if he has 1 base or 2 base, he is likely going to all in you so you need to drop additional cannons. If Zerg is droning on 2 bases and not preparing an all-in, he likely does not know how to playu well as you will sky rocket ahead and can simply tech and win. IF he is prepping an allin, however, then get additinoal cannons up-- total of 4-5 and make sure you have a complete seal. You will be far ahead at the end of the push as he will have few drones and only 2 bases. -- Most early thirds go down sometime between 6-8 minutes (I believe) so while you are building your extra gateways, and whatever tech you are building, try to have a probe running around scouting and hiding a couple pylons around the map. It can be hard if Zerg goes for speedlings & is aggressive with them, though, as he may find your pylons & deny scouting. If this is the case, either tech to hallucination & get sentries charging energy or get a robo for observers. Since I often go for blink stalkers, I tend to delay my robo a little bit, because if they are going Muta/Ling you don't necessarily need a robo right away. Robo is amazing vs Roach/Hydra and for observers, but wont help you much if it's a Mtua/Ling mass but blink stalkers help no matter what, so I tend to start with them. Others will disgaree though
You don't need more than one cannon unless you scout an all-in coming. It's harder to judge because they can cancel their hatchery, but gas timings and zealot scout can confirm really easily. The third can be down as early as 4 minutes.
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Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~
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On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~
God yes, I just want to elaborate in this thought.
If you can't FFE on a map against Zerg, you already have quite a disadvantage if he is going for a hatch first, but that advantage is solidified when the Zerg gets a third.
Now not only does a quick Voidray deny that fast third, it takes out scouting overlords and defends against Roach all ins like no other. I won't say you should commit to air, but I think the single Voidray patrolling the map and the edges of your base is amazing when you are opening Gateway first.
You might actually scare the Zerg into making whinedralisks, and I think you all like Zergs that go for 2 base Hydra armies.
Just whatever you do, DON'T LOSE THE VOIDRAY under ANY circumstances.
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On November 28 2011 19:37 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 18:46 mizU wrote:
Fellow Brotoss:
1-gate stargate on maps where you can't FFE is AWESOME!~ God yes, I just want to elaborate in this thought. If you can't FFE on a map against Zerg, you already have quite a disadvantage if he is going for a hatch first, but that advantage is solidified when the Zerg gets a third. Now not only does a quick Voidray deny that fast third, it takes out scouting overlords and defends against Roach all ins like no other. I won't say you should commit to air, but I think the single Voidray patrolling the map and the edges of your base is amazing when you are opening Gateway first. You might actually scare the Zerg into making whinedralisks, and I think you all like Zergs that go for 2 base Hydra armies. Just whatever you do, DON'T LOSE THE VOIDRAY under ANY circumstances.
Make sure you get a phoenix too and keep it alive to poke in, in case Zerggie decides to do a muta switch.
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On November 28 2011 07:40 LambtrOn wrote:
I switched to toss at the beginning of season 4 and I'm in diamond improving pretty quickly but pvp is really holding me back. I have no idea what to do. Nothing feels safe. Can anyone please recommend a safe build for me to focus on?
Although everyone says Blink Stalker is the way to go because a couple of koreans do it I think that's totally wrong.
IMO there are two builds right now that are stable and safe in PvP:
3 Gate Robo
+ Show Spoiler +1 Gate - Robo + 2 Gates, Chrono out an Observer asap, scout your opponents base directly. This way you should see his buildings shortly before the first Immortal would pop out.
Then you can react perfectly to what you see:
1 - Blink Stalker all-in: Just Chrono Immortals get some Zeals and Stalkers
2 - Blink Stalker FE: You will scout the FE relatively fast, you can throw down you own FE and chrono out immortals, get only a few Gateway units, rather add on Gates to pump out when he moves agressively, this way you have the maximum amount of Immortals (once you have 3 Immos or more Blink Stalker is just a freewin for you)
3 - 3 Gate Robo: Tough one, you can get either WP and 2 Immortals to harras, or attack with a (yes ONE) chronoed Colossus
4 - DTs: Enjoy your freewin
5 - Phoenix play: Cancel Immortal, add Stalkers, add twilight!
3 Gate Stargate into Immortals
+ Show Spoiler +
again, 1 Gate - Stargate +3 Gates after you started your first phoenix, get robotics
Scout with your first Phoenix to see what he's up to.
1 - Blink Stalker all-in: The hardest build you will run into. Chrono the hell out of those Immortals, only kill a few (like one or two) Gas Probes, no more! You will need the energy to lift probes that want to build forward pylons and kill units. In fights it is sometimes a good Idea to lift with every single Phoenix you have, to minimize opponents DPS. Don't have more than 4 Phoenix at a tim
2 - Blink Stalker FE: You will scout this in time, again Chrono out Immortals, get only 4 Phoenix and add on Zeals/Stalkers, shortly after his FE is done you should get your 4th Immortal and kill him.
3 - 3 Gate Robo If he transitions into Blink Stalkers see above. If he doesn't Harras as much as possible, get up to 7 Phoenix, expand. try to kill sentries and Zealots over anything else (they die so fast) in fights, focus on Zealots with your Phoenix. Babysit the shit out of your Phoenix' they are sooo valuable in fights.
4 - DTs: Enjoy your freewin
5 - Phoenix play: TRICKYYY. get a few cannons to protect main and natural, Chargelot Archon is generally the way to go. If he gets Colossi, add another base and go colossi off of 2 Robos, harras with phoenix (he should have a lot less) and try to keep him in his base for as long as possible, add +1 dmg.
I personally think that Phoenix play has more potential but is way harder to pull off, since you constantly have to look at them and still macro like a Böss. If you aim for perfection, go Phoenix. If you aim for anything less than that, go Robo!
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EPT
