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On November 24 2011 18:08 MooSlapper wrote:
Thanks for tips guys!
"A 1 gate expo doesn't really lose to a gasless expand."-- I was referring to when I react to a gasless FE by adding more gates, chroning stalkers, and preparing for a marine rush. That is when I fall behind. I have trouble differentiating between the two. Also, once I verify they are gasless FEing, I find it hard to put pressure on them because it is common to find 3 bunkers protecting their choke. What do you guys think about getting an early 3rd against gasless FE since their tech is usually delayed?
DO you have any links or guides to 2 gate robo or 3 gate FE builds, or can you give any advice on the best way to carry it out vaguely? Specifically, I would like to know how to play them as in--- with 3 gate expand, what is my good timing to utilize those 3 gates and put on pressure? Do you delay the nexus in favor of units or do you drop the nexus THEN use your gates to immiedatey put pressure on? For the 2 gate robo, do you expand immediately after you drop your robo or do you put pressure on with immortal & gateway units early?
Anyone do hallucination after WG? It might be faster & cheaper than dropping a quick robo if you suspect 1 base, so you can immedaitely scout them with fast pheonixes and be very reactive.
Have you truly held off a thor rush with a 1 gate FE? What is your technique?
Just a little bit of advice for holding a marine/scv allin. I have never lost to one in a long time with this. If you see it coming just cancel nexus, chrono a stalker, and throw up 3 pylons at the top of the ramp. By doing this you block off your ramp from the scvs and almost half the dps, now with your two stalkers kill the marines and you win.
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Hey Moose---
So you mean you block your ramp with the pylons, so the SCVs are hitting at them while you shoot at the stalker with better range?
Interesting idea.
Do you get 2 or 3 gates?
Do you have any replays of you holding one off please?
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On November 25 2011 11:01 MooSlapper wrote:
Hey Moose---
So you mean you block your ramp with the pylons, so the SCVs are hitting at them while you shoot at the stalker with better range?
Interesting idea.
Do you get 2 or 3 gates?
Do you have any replays of you holding one off please?
Yes exactly this, I can hold with a one gate expo, as long as you scout it before they reach your nexus. Because you need time to chrono the 2nd stalker and get the 3 pylons up. you block the ramp on the high ground. It works out nicely due to the fact that you get 300 minerals from cancelling the nexus.
edit: if anyone wants to do the build against me. I'll be able to post a replay.
And we are talking about the ~6 marines/scv all in right?
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What is a good continuation of a 4 gate 2 gas in PvZ if that's even viable?
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it's viable as long as you don't lose many sentries and the zerg doesn't have too many drones by the time you withdraw, and you start your natural nexus during your attack. although these conditions may be difficult, you can transition into either robo or twilight depending on how the zerg has reacted.
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I've recently had alot of success with stargate play in PvP, I find alot of people at a lower level (platinum/low-diamond) don't know how to play against it due to it being uncommon. However, I seem to auto-lose if my opponent 4-gates as I have no tech advantage to really hold off until such as immortals with robo builds. I understand I can hold off the 4-gate with sentries, but what then? Only seems to delay my death. Do i need to incorporate an early robo into my stargate play? should I be going 3-gate into stargate or gate-stargate-2gates?
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I just beat a hard Zerg AI with a 4 gate 1 gas for the first time and I'd love some critique on it. http://www.mediafire.com/?v87vshnbxebj9u5 (BTW I'm a bronze/silver player so any critique including overall game play mistakes would be greatly appreciated.)
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On November 25 2011 13:15 Alphafury wrote:
I've recently had alot of success with stargate play in PvP, I find alot of people at a lower level (platinum/low-diamond) don't know how to play against it due to it being uncommon. However, I seem to auto-lose if my opponent 4-gates as I have no tech advantage to really hold off until such as immortals with robo builds. I understand I can hold off the 4-gate with sentries, but what then? Only seems to delay my death. Do i need to incorporate an early robo into my stargate play? should I be going 3-gate into stargate or gate-stargate-2gates?
2 gate into stargate is best. Search TL for my defensive 3 gate guide and do that and you'll be fine. Once you get good enough at it you can even take out the third gate and get mot probes.
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I'm coming back after an absence due to rl things. Anyway, I was platinum Toss when I left, and 1/1/1 was the thing to figure out. Has that been stopped yet? What are the standards for each match up now? It seems PvZ has just added Warp Prisms in to standard play with greedier expos, but what is this new PvP I hear about? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I'm just lost 
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On November 25 2011 16:15 GiygaS wrote:I'm coming back after an absence due to rl things. Anyway, I was platinum Toss when I left, and 1/1/1 was the thing to figure out. Has that been stopped yet? What are the standards for each match up now? It seems PvZ has just added Warp Prisms in to standard play with greedier expos, but what is this new PvP I hear about? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I'm just lost
a.) 1/1/1 still is hard to hold, but the common method is to 1-Gate-Expand as soon as you see your opponent walling off his ramp. If he goes for a gasless expansion, proceed as normal (go either up to colossi or high templars, double forge is also pretty popular as of now). If he's playing 1/1/1 then just go up to 5 Gates, 1 Robo and pump Immortal/Zealot with as few stalkers as possible.
This post has a lot of answers, including a link to a thread with all the current common build orders.
All in all not that much has changed, Warp Prisms are good in all match-ups as of now, PvP has slightly shifted away from 4-Gating and its possible to be more greedy with tech than before because your ramp is much easier to hold (they changed the way you can look up the ramp and the pylon range decrease work together to make high-ground-warp-ins nearly impossible). Apart from that everything is still the same for the most part - Observer/Blink is still one of the most played builds while Chargelot/Archon seems to be the more favorite Midgamecomposition nowadays.
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MoOoOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
Yo... help a moo.
1.) PvZ
--- Lately, I have been FFEing always with about 6-7 gates and a twilight with double forge. I ahve been scouting with hallucination and only getting robo if I see roaches/hydras on the prowl, and if its just lings/banes/muts I dont really feel like I need the robo THAT much. I mean, it would be nice to get observers on the field and warp prism for sentrys + blink stalker high ground (a most splendiferous combination, I tell u!). Is this blasphamous? Or, can I save $/gas by skipping robo until I see unit comps that need it?
---Is getting 7 gates considered an all in? If you plan to go robo, how many gates should you have accompanying it (initially--- obviously you add more as the days go by)
---How soon do you get your robo in an FFE? I figure you need it pretty quick for observer, so, do you generally build it fairly fast?
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On November 25 2011 20:46 MooSlapper wrote:
MoOoOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
Yo... help a moo.
1.) PvZ
--- Lately, I have been FFEing always with about 6-7 gates and a twilight with double forge. I ahve been scouting with hallucination and only getting robo if I see roaches/hydras on the prowl, and if its just lings/banes/muts I dont really feel like I need the robo THAT much. I mean, it would be nice to get observers on the field and warp prism for sentrys + blink stalker high ground (a most splendiferous combination, I tell u!). Is this blasphamous? Or, can I save $/gas by skipping robo until I see unit comps that need it?
---Is getting 7 gates considered an all in? If you plan to go robo, how many gates should you have accompanying it (initially--- obviously you add more as the days go by)
---How soon do you get your robo in an FFE? I figure you need it pretty quick for observer, so, do you generally build it fairly fast?
Double forge isn't very good in PvZ imo. At least not before your second expo.
In PvZ you don't think in terms of "what buildings do I get" but more in terms of what you wish to accomplish. Are you getting that many gates to do a quick warpgate push to deny a third ? Or just to mass up on blink stalkers to pressure and be able to secure your third ? Generally, you'll want to use a strategy that allows you to pressure a bit and get your third up relatively quickly while defending the counter push.
Depending on your strat, you'll run into a wall or not and you'll find out if you need the robo or not. For example, 6 gate +1 zealot pushes hit early enough that you don't need a robo. 7 gate +2 blink stalker pushes are usually too late and they can defend with burrowed roaches so you need the robo.
Also you need to think about your transition. If they defend with hydras and directly go for the counter push, how early do you need your robo to have colossi out in time ?
In PvZ it's really up to you to decide how many buildings you want, there are as many viable builds as combinations of buildings you can get.
But yeah otherwise, 7 gate blink stalkers with double forge upgrades is pretty much an all in build ^^
A good macro build is FFE into 4 gate robo. Defend with 4-5 sentries, not more, then pressure a little bit with first units. Get a robo bay and scout with obs. Cancel robo bay if you see mutas, or other wise start making colossi and take your expo when you have your first colossus.
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On November 24 2011 06:19 Sychar wrote:
I'm currently a Platinum level player but have only played Terran. I want to try Protoss out, want to be successful (for me that would be Diamond) and am willing to be a thinking player.
When starting out as Terran, the initial advice offered is to learn the mechanics through a TvX opening that uses 3rax marine marauder push at 50ish food. That is essentially what I played to place and am successful with its understanding.
While choosing to shift to Protoss, I've been wondering if there is a build to start with regardless of matchup, as learning the mechanics while trying to remember 3 BO's (matchup dependent that I hope to get to eventually) would be a little more than my brain could handle.
Couldn't find any in my initial search and reading of threads. Was curious what advice anyone may have? 4 Gate? XGate Robo? One of the FE's?
Or is there no "safe enough" build to get me going. Just looking for something that I can get down smoothly to start experimenting with mid-games and reaction options.
Any guidance appreciated!
Sychar
I think you'll find a lot of success with Toss. Many of my Terran friends have started playing Toss to learn to play the race. After about 60 games, I hit top 8 master Toss, beating some gm mmr players. Really if you can play Terran well, you won't have that much difficulty learning Toss. Whereas Terran is founded on micro, but also relies on macro, Toss really only requires macro and your micro will just make you a much stronger player for that race.
For me, bringing Terran micro and decision making to the Toss race has allowed me to move up quickly. Granted, Toss is much more reactive than Terran and relies on scouting. But the whole idea of decision making is largely the same. If you FFE v. zerg you must be aware of when the zerg expands, drone saturation, amount of larva to know if they will all in or attempt to outmacro you.
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On November 22 2011 09:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 09:29 PoisedYeTi wrote:
PVP question:
What in gods name do i do if we both go 3 gate phoenix?
Can i transition out or am i stuck perpetually making phoenix incase i lose air dominance and is that really an important factor in PvP? You should try getting +1 air attack and get Voidrays + Zealots. Focus things down with the Voidrays during the engagement one at a time.
That's actually wrong. Phoenix beat Voidrays in cost with the same upgrades, even if you get your voidrays charged up they don't win. So once both players go for phoenix and you totally lose air control switching over to voidrays makes no sense at all. You can do quick testing on that in the unit tester if you don't believe me or just do some quick math on that subject. Furthermore you won't be able to ever to any harass with your voidrays or be able to outrun the phoenix while your opponent has the opportunity to do so. A very common unit you see along heavy phoenix play is the chargelot, a unit where voidrays also don't quite make sense.
You should be making a quick transition into archons and get one or two additional canons up for your mineral lines if needed.
If you are interested in pvp phoenix play (the right transitions, what works and doesn't work etc) you should give EG.Axlsav's stream a chance, he has been doing it for quite a while now as his standard in pvp.
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On November 26 2011 03:43 InvXXVII wrote:
On November 25 2011 13:22 Patymac wrote:I just beat a hard Zerg AI with a 4 gate 1 gas for the first time and I'd love some critique on it. http://www.mediafire.com/?v87vshnbxebj9u5 (BTW I'm a bronze/silver player so any critique including overall game play mistakes would be greatly appreciated.)
I didnt watch the whole replay (the first 5 minutes were enough) and this is what I am getting.
Your build is not refined (at all). I used to have this problem too when I was in bronze league. I'm sensing that you are just building wtv you feel like building. Although this might be fine with higher level players, it isn't a good idea to do this when you are looking to improve. Practice on thinking in advance (e.g.: "I want my gateway on 12, and I want a cy core immediately after the gate is done"). It's never a good idea to go: "Oh my gate just finished, I guess I'll get a core now", You might want to find a specific build order that is easy to execute (like the 4 gate: you can easily find build orders for that by searching TL) and practice on throwing down your buildings exactly when they are supposed to go down. After you've mastered that come back again and find another thing to practice on.
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I'm a mid master protoss (although I feel like my skill is just high diamond) and I want to drastically improve my overall play. I was just wondering whether you higher level players (masters and up only please) think it's useful to off-race a bit. By useful, I mean "worth taking time off practicing with my main race". Obviously, off-racing will help in one way or the other, but I just wanted to know whether it is useful at my level.
Sorry double post. Can someone take it off? 
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On November 26 2011 03:44 InvXXVII wrote:
I'm a mid master protoss (although I feel like my skill is just high diamond) and I want to drastically improve my overall play. I was just wondering whether you higher level players (masters and up only please) think it's useful to off-race a bit. By useful, I mean "worth taking time off practicing with my main race". Obviously, off-racing will help in one way or the other, but I just wanted to know whether it is useful at my level.
I did start Offracing with T a few Days ago and can highly recommend it to players with decent mechanics who aim to improve their Mainrace. Like Ver described it in his Guide about Improvement, it is a whole other world to read about Matchup-Dynamics and actually _feel_ them. The struggle to threaten a Protoss FE with Bio, the vulnerability to stalkers without marauders, the dependency on Bunkers before Medivacs, the Meatgrinder-Feeling if you stay in all that P-Splash etc etc
My Game Sense about PvT improved a lot since I started offracing. Best part is, even the basic 1 Rax-Marauder Expand into 3 Rax Medivac gives enough impressions about the race and its Dynamics.
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PvZ - Zealots & Roaches
Hey guys,
most people don't build zealots when they are up against roaches, because they are easily kited. However, they are proven to be cost effective fighting roaches head to head--- right? That being said, shouldn't zealots vs roaches depend whether you are on the offensive OR the defensive?
For instance, pursuing roaches with zealots makes littel sense,
but if you are gettnig overwhelmed by roaches, I'd imagine adding zealots to your stalker/sentry ball would be a wise choice since roaches try to get in close to your stalkers so all are in range. This way, if you are on defense add zealots for a cheap front line that is cost effective vs the roach. They will be forced to confront your melee units, and since you are being defensive, simply don't chase them if they try to kite. You can use your zealot wall & outrange them with your stalkers. Also, can't sentries be used to make zealots take down roaches?
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On November 26 2011 12:58 MooSlapper wrote:
PvZ - Zealots & Roaches
Hey guys,
most people don't build zealots when they are up against roaches, because they are easily kited. However, they are proven to be cost effective fighting roaches head to head--- right? That being said, shouldn't zealots vs roaches depend whether you are on the offensive OR the defensive?
For instance, pursuing roaches with zealots makes littel sense,
but if you are gettnig overwhelmed by roaches, I'd imagine adding zealots to your stalker/sentry ball would be a wise choice since roaches try to get in close to your stalkers so all are in range. This way, if you are on defense add zealots for a cheap front line that is cost effective vs the roach. They will be forced to confront your melee units, and since you are being defensive, simply don't chase them if they try to kite. You can use your zealot wall & outrange them with your stalkers. Also, can't sentries be used to make zealots take down roaches?
Well if you are planning to make zealots, your ff have to be perfect (like very perfect): good enough to trap the roaches without walling out the zealots. Also, zealots are melee units, which means that a big ball of zealots isn't good because they need to surround the roaches before they start attacking. Unlike speedlings, zealots are slow as shit, and the leg speed allows you one guaranteed hit, but you can't rely on it to surround the enemy. Add to that the fact that Protoss usually prefer to engage in tight chokes (for forcefields, colossi, and storms) that dont allow surrounds. That is why I would prefer making stalkers sentries to combat roaches instead of zealots.
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in PvT i sometimes die to a kind of 2 base stim concussive shell timing push. obviously if i spot this coming i should maybe skimp on teching too hard and maybe cut a few probes as if i hold it off he's still stuck on barracks only so a collosi push will obliterate him...but any pointers on how to spot this, how many barracks before a factory should i start to worry? i dont want to say x time because im assuming that'll be greatly different whether it was one rax fe or a kind of 1 base 2/3 barracks push i often face.
also im having trouble deciding between one forge and earlier collossi versus double forge, I feel double forge just sets you up for lategame so great but my unit control seems lacklustre and i really need some kind of area of effect. Is there any early indications people use of whether or not the terran player will be very aggressive off of two bases or is looking to play heavy macro.
finally in PvZ i feel one base opening leading to an expansion (1 gate sentry expo or 3 gate sentry expo) on maps where ffe is hard to defend seem unplayable. From playing zerg I did the same thing I just have a wave of roaches and lings right when the protoss player wants to expand and it just crushes the expo. off of 3 gate expo should i wait until i have a few stalkers with my sentries to expo if i sense roach aggression, I just feel really far behind economically if i do this and therefore why would i do this rather than just 4 gating? i do try and pressure and not let the zerg drone but any pressure just tends to get crushed. are there any kind of 1 gate stargate expand build or something like that where i can have a void ray for any roach pressure with the added benefit of making it a wee bit harder for zerg to take a third? I did watch a replay or two and often when i 1 gate expo'd i noticed it wasnt until he spotted me sending a probe to the low ground with my miniscule force that he flooded lings, does anybody fake and have success with faking a 1 gate expo when actually playing a safer maybe 3 gate expo to tempt an effectively all-in from zerg where you can just forcefield your ramp. maybe my forcefield usage just needs to improve to play 1 base expo :/
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EPT
