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On October 11 2012 12:26 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 03:34 Areon wrote:
How the fuck is not saying gl hf rude? It's just a game for Christ's sake. If the other guy offers it and you don't respond, I can see how you'd say that could be rude. Kind of ridiculous otherwise. Anyway, great write up. More people should read this. My counterarguement is: It's just a game, why wouldn't you wish the other player well? I personally see it as extremely offensive when players don't respond, although it doesn't bother me. I then usually get 1 base all-inned, hold, and then it's followed by a ragequit. People should play for fun; nothing wrong with socializing with your opponent. It's way Better than being angry the whole time you play and ignoring someone who's talking to you. If it was real life and you were to, say, play a game of chess against someone, wouldn't you at least say something? I do sympathize with the people who don't talk due to ladder anxiety and fear of BM. That's the only valid reason to not talk IMO. However, a simple "glhf" and "gg" drastically lowers the chance of them being BM.
Well I don't think we should take offence when players don't say GL HF or GG to us, but I do agree that it's better for everyone if we try to be well-mannered. I've lately been saying "gl hf, have a good game" and then if they respond asking "how you doin?" Not everyone responds, but those that do are less likely to rage later.
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On October 14 2012 10:03 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 12:26 Mavvie wrote:On October 03 2012 03:34 Areon wrote:
How the fuck is not saying gl hf rude? It's just a game for Christ's sake. If the other guy offers it and you don't respond, I can see how you'd say that could be rude. Kind of ridiculous otherwise. Anyway, great write up. More people should read this. My counterarguement is: It's just a game, why wouldn't you wish the other player well? I personally see it as extremely offensive when players don't respond, although it doesn't bother me. I then usually get 1 base all-inned, hold, and then it's followed by a ragequit. People should play for fun; nothing wrong with socializing with your opponent. It's way Better than being angry the whole time you play and ignoring someone who's talking to you. If it was real life and you were to, say, play a game of chess against someone, wouldn't you at least say something? I do sympathize with the people who don't talk due to ladder anxiety and fear of BM. That's the only valid reason to not talk IMO. However, a simple "glhf" and "gg" drastically lowers the chance of them being BM. Well I don't think we should take offence when players don't say GL HF or GG to us, but I do agree that it's better for everyone if we try to be well-mannered. I've lately been saying "gl hf, have a good game" and then if they respond asking "how you doin?" Not everyone responds, but those that do are less likely to rage later.
I guess it's not that big a deal, but when someone wishes you well and you ignore them it's...not offensive, just rude I suppose.
Yeah, I usually say "gl hf  " or "gl hf [theirname]", and always am mannered. After crossing into masters, people are actually being well mannered now! It's surprising.
Also, I got about 10x more hate/BM/hacking comments when I was playing Protoss compared to Zerg, I personally find it both interesting and hilarious
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Im having alot of trouble when it comes to my temper after losing games! I always say to myself before games that "if you lose now, just say gg and leave" but then I just cant bring myself to do that. Instead im just leaving or making some dumb comment about how lucky he was or how easy his race are to play  . Im pretty sure im even way worse then Idra. This is nothing im proud of in any way, quite the opposite actually. But most of the times I just cant bring myself to just say gg and leave. I really wish I could.
This post was a great read to me and I put it among "favorites". I think and hope it can help me become a more mannered player, because God knows im not. I want to be mannered though because Im really not enjoying that side of myself and id really like to try and change!
Thanks for the post
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Honestly, the most fun that I have in-game is having a bit of banter before the game actually begins helps in more ways than I originally imagined.
Saying "are you ready for some STARCRAFT?!?" has lead to some fun conversations, as well as I can easily tell who is going to cheese or not 
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On October 23 2012 05:08 Shadowslayer wrote:Honestly, the most fun that I have in-game is having a bit of banter before the game actually begins helps in more ways than I originally imagined. Saying "are you ready for some STARCRAFT?!?" has lead to some fun conversations, as well as I can easily tell who is going to cheese or not
Best advantage to being chatty lmfao
I've played extra defensive and won countless games by judging his response, it's so funny. Granted I don't talk much anymore, just say "glhf" and "ggwp" (or just "gg" if I should've won but made a lot of silly mistakes; ie. he didn't play well I just played badly).
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From my experience, it is true that you don't get BMd when you gl hf / gg. Every single game no matter what I make a point of typing gl hf and gg wp / gg ty if I lose/win and I can only remember being BMd once in the last 200 or so games this season. (EU Plat)
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I agree with this. Maintaining a competitive mood alongside a positive sense of play is a great way to tackle the stressful nature of this game. Psychology is extremely important with SC2 and maintaining a good psych can really help out.
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I couldn't agree more with the OP. I wish I had known this when I first started playing. Things as simple as giving a wp after an annoying loss, and chit chat at the start of games really helps my mood, and thus my play.
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On October 23 2012 05:32 Dujek wrote:
From my experience, it is true that you don't get BMd when you gl hf / gg. Every single game no matter what I make a point of typing gl hf and gg wp / gg ty if I lose/win and I can only remember being BMd once in the last 200 or so games this season. (EU Plat)
Dujek One-Arm?
For a long time I didn't GLHF because it helped me feel like I was playing against a computer but now I just say it automatically. I don't really care about it tbh. It doesn't mean that much, it's just ceremony.
Although honestly it feels really weird to me that you would wish your opponent good luck in killing you and to have fun while doing so.
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Haha yes, the key is to not care about those cheese that people are winning against you with, i can't even count the number of time someone beat me with those kind of strat and i am thinking to myself, wow i lost to that guy, he's higher ranked than me too, he doesn't know how to scout just blindly all in me and wins, it is frustrating. But you got to understand that those kind of build exist and understand that once someone does one of these build on you, the next time someone try the same thing youl be better at seeing it coming, and potentially stoping it, So besicly it just help you be a better player in the end. All you have to do is keep playing, and keep anylising what you could have done better, if you dont know the answer go on forum, chat with better player than you, etc ... That is the beauty that is sc2
ps: Oh, and even more important than that, the real secret is to enjoy yourself, listen to music while playing, sing s song to the other player in chat, talk to your opponent lol, just have fun, by experience it help's get the pressure off and you play better as a result, this is my secret Without being BM of course.
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I approve of the message of the OP. Have some class and say GG, no matter what happened!
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I always give a good luck at the start, and gg in the end. I've found particularly good (and useful!) to not limit myself to a simple gg at the end when I lose: instead I give a specific compliment about the game and then ask what should I have done to try and win in a similar situation. A bit of flattery makes people a lot more talkative .. and in the end, since you are not leaving the game immediately, as they have to wait for their army to kill you out completely or for you to leave, they may as well answer you  ..just don't be an asshole and stay in the game too much if they are not in the mood!
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Everyone knows that having a positive mindset is all in... :-D
Nah, I really enjoy all of Tang's Guides, and this is one that I remember I used to do. Ever since I got out of Bronze, my manners have slowly dropped. After a 4-5 month break I have been trying to keep a more positive attitude, and I can tell when which days I didn't by looking at my match history. Haha! I guess I should just try harder.
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If we really need to have this on TL*, does it really need to be bumped several times a year?
*yes, I admit, I hate this "positive thinking" jibberish with a passion. Moreso because it is really everywhere. Here goes the hope that TL could be one of the island of reason in the sea of empty cliches.
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On October 24 2012 01:13 opisska wrote:
If we really need to have this on TL*, does it really need to be bumped several times a year?
*yes, I admit, I hate this "positive thinking" jibberish with a passion. Moreso because it is really everywhere. Here goes the hope that TL could be one of the island of reason in the sea of empty cliches.
It's everywhere people find it helpful! If you don't think it's helpful to be positive, that's an equally fair point of view, but at least explain your reasoning and suggest an alternative.
PS. It's interesting that you use two metaphors to explain how we need more reason on TL
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On October 24 2012 03:12 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:13 opisska wrote:
If we really need to have this on TL*, does it really need to be bumped several times a year?
*yes, I admit, I hate this "positive thinking" jibberish with a passion. Moreso because it is really everywhere. Here goes the hope that TL could be one of the island of reason in the sea of empty cliches. It's everywhere people find it helpful! If you don't think it's helpful to be positive, that's an equally fair point of view, but at least explain your reasoning and suggest an alternative. PS. It's interesting that you use two metaphors to explain how we need more reason on TL
I don't really think that using metaphors in speech has anything to do with it, they are just another way to convey the same message and that's what it is supposed to be about, the message, not the form.
Maybe I am just too materialistic, but I feel that these "motivational" texts (and, man, I have seen a lot of them lately) convey no message at all. Yes, in theory it sounds cool to be "positive" and whatever, but what is the pracitcal impact? I just don't see it. Heck, there are even books on how to act, think and live in a certain way, like literarly tens of thousands of words, that say completely nothing relevant to reality. I just don't see all these abstract concepts in the real world at all.
To comment on specifics, there are things that I agree with in your OP and things I don't. For one, I think that the whole Idra case is a little bit of roleplaying. We do not actually know what happens inside his head (unless you are close personal friends with him, which I don't know, of course) - he is just used as a personification for oversimplified concepts - and to me it seems that he likes it to some extent because it helps him market himself.
But what I really don't like is your emphasis on words. I really don't think that saying "gg gl hf" or "you're a fucking piece of shit" at the beginning of the game changes anything in the way how I play for me - and you know, the only thing that has an effect on how the game ends up is where you click and what you push on the keyboard! (to be clear, I always write the former, because I believe that people should be nice to each other and some can be sad if they are not treated "politely" but I absolutely do not care about being on the recieving end). The other part about saying positive things to yourself, is just ... abusrd. Heck, Tang, you are such a bright guy, doing all these in-depth [G]s shows a lot of intellect at your side - and yet you tell me that this has any effect on you? You know you are saying that to yourself just to cause this specific effect, so how are you able to trick you to believe yourself? Do you have two parts of brain that do not talk to each other except for articulated thoughts?
Not to be overly negative, I can't disagree with "I'm going to get my speed up early, then expand, then I'm going to drone to 27 get a warren down and grind this guy's front door with ling/roach. Man, I'm going to FORCE the issue until he makes a mistake, and when he does, I'm going to capitalize on it." - because that is just called strategy. You need to have a goal going into a match, have thought out what reason is beyond your clicks and keypresses. But it feels completely disconnected from the rest of the paragraph, because this is not empty speech, but specific structured strategy. I also agree with the approach that you have to look for your mistakes, because your play is the only thing that is under your influence.
Well, I still don't think I articulated very well why I hate motivational speech, but I think the general picture is here.
PS: thanks for being the first one to actually use my quote mechanism
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On October 24 2012 20:43 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 03:12 TangSC wrote:On October 24 2012 01:13 opisska wrote:
If we really need to have this on TL*, does it really need to be bumped several times a year?
*yes, I admit, I hate this "positive thinking" jibberish with a passion. Moreso because it is really everywhere. Here goes the hope that TL could be one of the island of reason in the sea of empty cliches. It's everywhere people find it helpful! If you don't think it's helpful to be positive, that's an equally fair point of view, but at least explain your reasoning and suggest an alternative. PS. It's interesting that you use two metaphors to explain how we need more reason on TL I don't really think that using metaphors in speech has anything to do with it, they are just another way to convey the same message and that's what it is supposed to be about, the message, not the form. Maybe I am just too materialistic, but I feel that these "motivational" texts (and, man, I have seen a lot of them lately) convey no message at all. Yes, in theory it sounds cool to be "positive" and whatever, but what is the pracitcal impact? I just don't see it. Heck, there are even books on how to act, think and live in a certain way, like literarly tens of thousands of words, that say completely nothing relevant to reality. I just don't see all these abstract concepts in the real world at all. To comment on specifics, there are things that I agree with in your OP and things I don't. For one, I think that the whole Idra case is a little bit of roleplaying. We do not actually know what happens inside his head (unless you are close personal friends with him, which I don't know, of course) - he is just used as a personification for oversimplified concepts - and to me it seems that he likes it to some extent because it helps him market himself. But what I really don't like is your emphasis on words. I really don't think that saying "gg gl hf" or "you're a fucking piece of shit" at the beginning of the game changes anything in the way how I play for me - and you know, the only thing that has an effect on how the game ends up is where you click and what you push on the keyboard! (to be clear, I always write the former, because I believe that people should be nice to each other and some can be sad if they are not treated "politely" but I absolutely do not care about being on the recieving end). The other part about saying positive things to yourself, is just ... abusrd. Heck, Tang, you are such a bright guy, doing all these in-depth [G]s shows a lot of intellect at your side - and yet you tell me that this has any effect on you? You know you are saying that to yourself just to cause this specific effect, so how are you able to trick you to believe yourself? Do you have two parts of brain that do not talk to each other except for articulated thoughts? Not to be overly negative, I can't disagree with "I'm going to get my speed up early, then expand, then I'm going to drone to 27 get a warren down and grind this guy's front door with ling/roach. Man, I'm going to FORCE the issue until he makes a mistake, and when he does, I'm going to capitalize on it." - because that is just called strategy. You need to have a goal going into a match, have thought out what reason is beyond your clicks and keypresses. But it feels completely disconnected from the rest of the paragraph, because this is not empty speech, but specific structured strategy. I also agree with the approach that you have to look for your mistakes, because your play is the only thing that is under your influence. Well, I still don't think I articulated very well why I hate motivational speech, but I think the general picture is here. PS: thanks for being the first one to actually use my quote mechanism
I was just kidding about the metaphors haha.
Everyone can agree that Starcraft II is a psychological game as well as a game of mechanical skill. You're absolutely right in saying that ultimately, winning or losing a game comes down to where and what you push on the keyboard. But I would say that where/when you push the keyboard depends on what you're thinking about - if you're in the middle of a game and you're thinking "argh damnit I'm so bad why did I let these hellions in my base?" instead of thinking "Ok there's hellions in my base, what's the best response?", then your mindset is actually hurting your performance. I mean how many times have you gone into a chat channel and heard these self-depricating comments like "I'm bad" or "I suck"? When someone goes into a game thinking these things, it's easy to get frustrated when things are going wrong.
So I think the most practical aspect of a positive mindset is that it builds confidence while reducing frustration. Naturally it's not the same for everyone, but I think the average gamer can benefit from acknowledging that mindset does affect your in-game choices, and that it may be helpful to avoid negative thoughts that have negative impacts on your focus.
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But isn't it, like ... obvious that when you have helions in your base, you should do something about it and think about the reason later? Do you really need a "mindset" for that? That's why it is called a real-time strategy, you kind of have to do things ... in the real time
Yeah, that's just exagerating, your last post isn't all that disagreeable. Maybe if you wrote the whole OP like that, instead of the overly positive chant, I would have actually liked it! I know that it is all a matter of personal taste, but I really consider the whole part about "telling positive stuff to yourself" to be very cheap.
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On October 25 2012 03:52 opisska wrote:But isn't it, like ... obvious that when you have helions in your base, you should do something about it and think about the reason later? Do you really need a "mindset" for that? That's why it is called a real-time strategy, you kind of have to do things ... in the real time Yeah, that's just exagerating, your last post isn't all that disagreeable. Maybe if you wrote the whole OP like that, instead of the overly positive chant, I would have actually liked it! I know that it is all a matter of personal taste, but I really consider the whole part about "telling positive stuff to yourself" to be very cheap.
Well of course it's obvious that you should focus on the game, but I suppose the core of my argument is that people focus more intently when they are in a positive state of mind. It's certainly something I've noticed in my own play, that when I'm upbeat I always play much better, and I've noticed when coaching that relaxed, excited, and optimistic students tend to focus better than those who are frustrated and negative. Whenever someone starts sighing or swearing, the game usually goes downhill. So if we can't agree on positive mindset being a key to playing better, we can at least agree that a negative mindset is harmful to decision-making and improvement.
And yes haha I wrote the OP at a time when I was in a particular (positive) mindset. Some of the suggestions come across as over-the-top or exaggerated, and I surely don't expect everyone to follow everything precisely - though if they did, I think there would be much less BM!
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The analogy with gambling and being on tilt could not have been more spot-on. I have always laddered often during my SC2 career (which is only a tad more than one year long) but lately I have been grinding on ladder constantly, trying to improve my rank. I am quite successful in my pursuit, but along the way I have experienced some ups and downs. This past weekend I tried to explain my obsession with laddering to an older cousin of mine, who is 21 now, and he is an avid EVE Online player. Eerily enough I explained it to him in terms of gambling, where when I lost a game I immediately would load up another one, trying to win back the points that I lost. Eventually I would then go on a losing streak, making me even more upset about my losses. On the contrary, when I win a game I usually sit back for a while and take pride in my win, and rather read something on the Internet before loading up the next game. Just so that I am not portraying myself as a freak, my win ratio is in fact above 50% so those moments of glory happen a bit more often than usual.
To come to the point: I really enjoyed your article and the way that you explained that by having a positive attitude one can improve overall strategy and gameplay. Good work!
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EPT
