Ruthless PvZ Build for New Rush Maps (Season 3 GM) - Page 4

aebriol

Norway2066 Posts

July 17 2011 22:16 GMT

#61

I blind counter this in pvz with +1 speedlings, that I try to kill off a nexus with. Have met this a few times, and I kill the units as they move out normally and thereafter win the game.

But!

It's very strong if you go for a econ game (3 gate expand done properly can hold a pressure build, so if you chose not to pressure, this is almost insta win).

It's still a fast, efficient way to win most of your games, without putting too much effort into it.

Also, I am just mid masters. I am sure what I beat against other mid master players, a superior player might turn into a loss with superior micro.

crojar

United States59 Posts

July 17 2011 22:20 GMT

#62

I've been doing this for a long time (1675 masters P), you have to move down your ramp aggressively and deny scouting at your natural. I think this works well as a follow up to a hatch block with a pylon or a pylon and cyber core.

Another way to make it interesting is to hide units other than your first zealot and 2 sentries. Only show your first 3 units. That way he will start thinking stargate or dt.

The only problem is if there's no Nexus by 7:00 the zerg can throw down spines and be way far ahead. You have to keep him in the dark.

Perhaps it's just my level, but I win with similar builds a lot.

aebriol

Norway2066 Posts

July 17 2011 22:27 GMT

#63

On July 18 2011 07:20 crojar wrote:
I've been doing this for a long time (1675 masters P), you have to move down your ramp aggressively and deny scouting at your natural. I think this works well as a follow up to a hatch block with a pylon or a pylon and cyber core.

Another way to make it interesting is to hide units other than your first zealot and 2 sentries. Only show your first 3 units. That way he will start thinking stargate or dt.

The only problem is if there's no Nexus by 7:00 the zerg can throw down spines and be way far ahead. You have to keep him in the dark.

Perhaps it's just my level, but I win with similar builds a lot.

The reason I do the +1 speedling attack to deny / kill expansion is that so many protoss goes DT's or Stargate tech at the moment.

And so you need the evo chamber.

If you use the first 100 gas on atk upgrade, the 2nd on speed, they finish roughly at the same time, and in good time to pressure an expo, or hold most ground based all ins - and speedlings don't require as much econ support as roaches.

But it's a weak zerg opening against 1 gate expand that holds, which leaves you far behind.

Either way, if there's no expo down at 6:40 at the very latest, you pretty much know it's an all inish build that's coming your way, so blindly getting a spore in each base, a spine if you can afford it, and producing units, is just a good move. Even a third queen.

It's not that hard to hold if you have units out in time to attack when he leaves his base. Because he has to keep spending energy, and will lose sentries, all the way down.

It's extremely hard to hold if you have to hold it at your base in just one fight.

It's extremely hard (impossible) to hold if you don't build units, and assume it's an expo, and go for the econ lead / late game.

Pwnographics

New Zealand1097 Posts

July 17 2011 22:28 GMT

#64

On July 18 2011 06:54 laharl23 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 18 2011 06:45 tuestresfat wrote:

On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:

On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:

On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.

I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.

In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion.

If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it.

But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example:
4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg.

So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense?

what doesn't make sense about that?

At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion.

This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that.

I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you.

ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it?

The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims?

Your claims:
1. 95% win rate in lower leagues
2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time
3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter
4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this
5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down.

What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down.

Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build.

+ Show Spoiler +

Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0

You're right about one thing and thats about it., I've never faced this build, because im a protoss player.

I've actually used this build many times at the highest level (many grandmaster players) and I have concluded that-

1. If scouted correctly, it can be defended by lots of spine crawlers.
2. There are other ways to scout besides getting an over-lord in, example, not seeing an expansion at 6 minutes and seeing lots of sentry makes no sense for a build, so the only option would be 5gate.
3. Game sense is much higher at the top levels, just look at nestea vs inca gsl finals, how did nestea know inca was going dt's? Did he ever get an overlord in? nope hes just a great player with good game sense.
4. Did I ever say the build wasn't viable? in any of my posts? no i did not. Its completely viable. I just said that I stopped using builds where I rely on my opponents to make mistakes/play bad, because I want to get better at the game and not do cheesy all ins.
5. You probably will get a 95% win rate with this in lower leagues because its a very easy build to pull off and very hard to defend, unless you are a high level zerg. obviously im making up the number but its a estimation, would you like me to get out statistics or some shit?

My point was- its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win.

1) Anything scouted correctly can be defended properly. Redundant statement is redundant.

2) Hidden expo? Expo at 7? He only shows 1 sentry 1 zealot? 1 Base blink stalker sentry all-in? Yeah, 5 gate is the only possibility.

3) How did he know? Cause he went dts in the last 3 games. How will you know if randomladdermanx will go dts? You won't - unless you've played him before.

4) Knowing when to all-in is part of getting better.

5) No one gives a shit about your estimation, either get some real statistics or shut the fuck up.

laharl23

United States582 Posts

July 17 2011 22:34 GMT

#65

On July 18 2011 07:28 Pwnographics wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 18 2011 06:54 laharl23 wrote:

On July 18 2011 06:45 tuestresfat wrote:

On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:

On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:

Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0

ok buddy, calm down apparently you take the strategy forums very seriously.

have fun 5gating all your games, ill stick to learning the game correctly. cya

kemsley

United Arab Emirates137 Posts

July 17 2011 22:49 GMT

#66

Genius has done this in GSL a couple of times this season too, but he does it on Tal Darim and vs Terran. Can't remember him losing with it.

Hallucination would be really interesting: couple of void rays hallucinated might draw fire away and more importantly wouldn't get in the way - Colossus would give you vision of high ground too.

Perhaps against Zerg, building the nexus and then deleting it would go even further to fooling them.

Let it Raine

Canada1245 Posts

July 17 2011 23:06 GMT

#67

kiwikaki beat me with this on the euro ladder

i punched the wall afterwards.

Pwnographics

New Zealand1097 Posts

July 17 2011 23:07 GMT

#68

On July 18 2011 08:06 Let it Raine wrote:
kiwikaki beat me with this on the euro ladder

i punched the wall afterwards.

Did you break the wall?

MooMooMugi

United States10531 Posts

July 17 2011 23:14 GMT

#69

I prefer to build a nexus at the similar 3 gate sentry expand time, but as my nexus is halfway I build 2 more gateways and stop all probe production. Warp in only units and attack around 1-2 minutes later than this build and it still works very well.

Minkus

United States29 Posts

July 18 2011 00:11 GMT

#70

this is just 5 warpgate allin. you didnt show a replay but if i had to guess the only reason he had just sentry zlot is because you probobly only made lings. also i dont know why you said this is for "rush" maps, im pretty sure protoss use proxy pylons so that doesnt matter.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 18 2011 01:13 GMT

#71

In the game he used it against me, I was going for a delayed 3hatch roach/ling push. He did a probe scout and saw no more lings all game and still did it to me, I think he does it in a lot of PvZ judging by his match history.

L3g3nd_

New Zealand10461 Posts

July 18 2011 01:37 GMT

#72

On July 18 2011 09:11 Minkus wrote:
this is just 5 warpgate allin. you didnt show a replay but if i had to guess the only reason he had just sentry zlot is because you probobly only made lings. also i dont know why you said this is for "rush" maps, im pretty sure protoss use proxy pylons so that doesnt matter.

it REALLY makes a difference. ever seen someone do a warpgate all in cross positions tal darim? of course not.
Ever seen a zerg hold warp gate all in on close positions meta? probably not.

Its about reaction time. the units have to walk to the zerg base, in which time the zerg has to prepare for the push. big map = more time, small map = less time

sickoota

Canada918 Posts

July 18 2011 01:50 GMT

#73

I kept reading the build in the OP over and over trying to see if I missed a robo+warpprism or blink or something... how does 5gate merit a thread? This build has been around since the beta. A pylon at the bottom of a ramp does not a new build make...

Novabuzz

Germany23 Posts

July 18 2011 01:56 GMT

#74

No offence, but this isn't that different from the 4-gate MC style nexus cancel or other allins which rely on looking like a sentry expand. It works greatly as most of the times the player is obviously sentry expanding, but still, the overlord scout should reveal this on maps where he can float overlord, and on the maps which are too big, he has plenty of reaction time.

It's fun to do once in a while, but not really that new or exciting.

Ryder.

1117 Posts

July 18 2011 02:05 GMT

#75

As helpful as it is for you to provide a 3 line description which each step reminding us of how we need to remember to put probes on gas, it would be much more helpful if you would upload a few replays. Everyone seems so caught up in this build that they haven't seem to notice that this is just you ripping some build from kiwikaki (which there is nothing wrong with I'll add) and then failing to upload replays yet remembering to advertise your chat channel, YouTube acount and website. Is this build so innovate and great that you couldn't post this before you had one measly replay? Seems like you just made this thread to promote yourself.

Please upload those replays.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 18 2011 02:24 GMT

#76

Wow. Sorry, I was excited to put the build up because I played KiWi and thought this was an exploitative build that people would enjoy to practice immediately. I mentioned in the original post that I would not have time to upload a replay or video until probably tomorrow but I thought I'd get the idea out there. People have been messaging me online saying they use the build and it works. I appreciate the anticipation though :D and a lot of the comments have been really constructive and helpful. Keep those creative juices flowing, zergs will start to fear this on the ladder

AcePlaysRandom

Canada9 Posts

July 18 2011 19:17 GMT

#77

I'll be sure to try this! Thanks :D

United States813 Posts

July 18 2011 19:25 GMT

#78

Tang asked for a zerg to play against him. He made me look like an idiot with this build

yarkO

Canada810 Posts

July 18 2011 19:29 GMT

#79

This build is indeed ruthless. I used to use it exclusively on Scrap Station PvZ before I finally vetoed it, and I still turn to it sometimes. I honestly win at least 80% of the time when I execute this build vs a 'standard' Zerg who isn't already planning an all-in or early aggression.

It hits at an awkward timing and hits extremely hard. It is completely viable at all levels, as it takes quite a few extra Spines to be able to hold it (an investment most Zergs won't make vs a [visual] 3gate expo).

BlasiuS

United States2405 Posts

July 18 2011 20:29 GMT

#80

5 gate zealot/sentry has been around for ages. Not sure if you think it's a new build but it sounds like it from the OP.

here's a replay from way back in September showing this exact strategy.

It's a good fake build and works pretty well on the ladder since most protoss do 3 gate sentry expand and this hits around the same time as protoss would normally expand with a sentry expand build.

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