EPTRuthless PvZ Build for New Rush Maps (Season 3 GM) - Page 2
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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UmiNotsuki
United States633 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
If the zerg went for a roachling timing you will not be able to do any damage. This is only good if you know the particular zerg likes drones. | ||
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Warp
United States166 Posts
I see many posts already talking about zergs being aggressive instead of being safe when "scouting" this build. Even though some zergs still go to their roachling super aggressive timing every single game they think they are up against a 3 gate expo, the "metagame" HAS been shifting away from that style. Zergs are instead favoring mass speedlings, quick thirds, and infestors into ultras/broods. The point of this build is to be "RUTHLESS" hence the title... If a zerg wants to roachling allin every single game against a 3 gate expo, then fine, maybe this build won't work out, but against the majority of macro-oriented zergs, this build has the potential to be a RUTHLESS 5 gate timing. I actually used this build back in my diamond days quite a bit, mostly because I didn't know you couldn't support 5 gates off one base. In the past, I made stalkers zealots and sentries with the build and got resource burned out quite quickly... I was a nub. I mentioned that story ^ because during those times I would proxy my two gates. This made the build virtually unscoutable. Basically, with your scouting probe, you make the 22/23 pylon in the most random location on the map. My variation of the build included chrono boosting as many probes as possible, basically getting up to exactly 30 probes by the time warpgate completed. This is advantageous because 1) if zerg sees your probe line with chronoes on the nexus, they will become less suspicious and 2) if the zerg runs lings into your front, and ovies from both sides there is no way you are going to able to stop their scouting. Additionally, by saturating your base fully before cutting probes allows you maintain a perfect sentry zealot 5 gate production.. otherwise you will have the initial 1 or 2 warp ins with 5 units, but it will quickly dwindle down to only 3-4 gates at a time. This is a great abusive and ruthless one base build against zergs who are macro oriented--the only thing i recommend is the hidden pylon and gates to fully complete the deception of a 3 gate expo. | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote: I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! you have to understand, when kiwikaki uses this build against a zerg opponent, he does it under the assumption his opponent is higher than silver league. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote: i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose" any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend. but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote: I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YPwD5.jpg) | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On July 18 2011 02:24 denzelz wrote: This type of secret gateway all-ins are not that uncommon already on the Masters level. I had someone build a Nexus, let me see it, and then canceled it and built 4 more Gates. -_- I see that you are trying to build a nexus. Did you know that fOr the cost of just a few more minerals you can throw down three more gateways? | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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Serashin
235 Posts
because this timing of the build and the timing of a sentry expand is vulerable to overlord scouting how weird it seems but math whise it is. because you show sentry and pylon down at your ramp means that he cant have like 2 stalkers up that early to deny vision. And if there are stalkers you can tell that something is going on and throw 1 ( - 2 ) spines up and keep checking for a expansion cut except for 4 drones the drone production for 1 round if the ovi scout is denied . and if there isnt stalker as in this build mentioned the ovi will be able to see everything. Aswell as if sentrys go back up the ramp to get rid of the overlord he wont have units down the ramp where the pylon got placed and this is a vulerable attack spot if he goes for the ovi. Cheese that works for not enough gamesense imo. e: oh i just read in OP "get rid with zealot sentry of zergling" if you are talking about highest level zerglings wont die to zealot sentry because good players control they zerglings early against gateway units to stay in vision without losing them. a cute guide of a build from beta nevertheless. I just dont get why people would read guides rather then learn stuff and try themself its so much more effective then just reading something what works if your oppenent dont scout . you can play realy solid any race if you want to but greed makes people vulerable because they want not lose eco race even if they can fend of any buildorder with not exactly knowing as early as possible what is going on. All in all buildorderguides are something good for lower level that reads this forum but who views more then just BO maths to punish greed more like adapting with openers to styles and try to get a read on your oppenent that is where strategy gets interesting not buildorders which are from beta. | ||
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laharl23
United States582 Posts
On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote: I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile? so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg? If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On July 18 2011 04:47 TangSC wrote: Listen I don't want to get in arguments or anything. This is a build kiwi uses, that alone makes it a viable option. My goal is to provide an aggressive opener for toss to use on new maps, if you don't want to use it that's fine, but try to avoid the negativity as I'm sure a lot of people will learn to win with this build. But it should be noted that this is an old build. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On July 18 2011 04:44 laharl23 wrote: i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile? so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg? If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels. No, ass, he's saying a guy with the highest MMR (quite possibly with that W/L ratio) runs this strat in tourneys, and against other top zergs on ladder, and brutally beats people with it. I agree iamke55 -- strategy forum heros. Theorycraft pros. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On July 18 2011 04:44 laharl23 wrote: i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile? so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg? If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels. Ever check Kiwikaki's match history? This is the exact build he does in every ladder PvZ. No matter how high your MMR is, at least on the NA ladder you will never reach a point where zerg players are consistently defending this. | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
On July 18 2011 04:56 iamke55 wrote: Ever check Kiwikaki's match history? This is the exact build he does in every ladder PvZ. No matter how high your MMR is, at least on the NA ladder you will never reach a point where zerg players are consistently defending this. Sounds like a problem to me. But also, ladder isn't tournament. You can't simply win a BO3 or BO5 doing just this build which is what's important. This build is so easy I could easily do this and be masters in P and I don't even play P. Kind of a joke. Ladder doesn't mean much in the end though. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
Shut the fuck up. This is a build Kiwikaki uses, which gives it instant credibility as opposed to your argument of "it won't work every time herpderp" No shit sherlock. | ||
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rale
United States40 Posts
On July 18 2011 04:47 TangSC wrote: Listen I don't want to get in arguments or anything. This is a build kiwi uses, that alone makes it a viable option. My goal is to provide an aggressive opener for toss to use on new maps, if you don't want to use it that's fine, but try to avoid the negativity as I'm sure a lot of people will learn to win with this build. It's certainly a viable build that can win games, but against random people on the ladder, it's just a coinflip. If the zerg made units, you lose. If not, you win. You're completely all-in, and you have no way to scout to know if it's going to work or not. That said, it's something you can use to good effect in a tournament against a zerg player you know doesn't usually make units early. | ||
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