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On August 09 2011 23:38 aZoX wrote:
You played very, very bad.... no scouting at all it's not really representative, standard timing for spines if no expo is 6:30 btw after that its sg,dt or all in gates
x2....if i of your 4 lings, at least one of them has to be in the back of the mineral line looking for the expo and an ovi has to be around checking. If you're deprived, cut drones, make spines immediately and continue scouting so that you can either confirm that there's an expo or start making roaches. Still 6:30-6:45 is pretty crucial. That's how I'm handling it at least.
On August 10 2011 05:23 fadestep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 06:26 TangSC wrote:
If zerg goes for really early roach/ling all-in, I think you can just pull back to your ramp and FF and be ahead moving into 2base with a very delayed nexus. This is incorrect IMO. The Zerg can either pump an absurd number of drones since he controls your front, he can pump an absurd number of speedlings off 2 hatches of larvae to delay your expo FOREVER, or he could let you expand while taking a third. You can make smart decisions to not be massively behind if he goes for an early 2base roach/ling all-in, but unless he sacks all his units smashing against your ramp then you don't get ahead or even equal with him.
Well yeah, I've made that mistake plenty of times and still do. There's one point where if I get faked out because I saw a stalker and a zeolot at the top of the ramp and can't scout the 4th gate, i get paranoid. It takes a lot of metal to be able to wait to see the nexus and not over-react. If I over-react, I'm generally just going to go all-in after I realize he actually expanded and then pray. Hopefully if I don't deny the expo, I at least kill as many sentries as I can, pull back with enough to hold off any counter pressure if it materializes.
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if he 3 spines you can easly expand right.spines are lots of mineral.
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Hasn't the sentry Zealot push been around since beta?
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Fake expo all-ins is why Zerg just all-in roach ling since we can't efficiently fake it QQ
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People can say what they want but this is Kiwikaki and I'm sure he can win with 3 gates zealot rush against a lot of gm if he want.
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I've had problems with this build, if they see your probe when going to place the proxy pylon they usually get a shit load of d and roaches and hold it pretty well, especially when they are on 2Base
~ high diamond
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Love it, tried it out and works AMAZINGLY. Its a good build to just go for those fast PvZ wins, if your not in the mood for the long drawn out struggle from the protoss side!
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On July 17 2011 22:25 phil.ipp wrote:
wow a hidden 5 gate allin
seriously thats what you came up after more than a year starcraft 2?
User was warned for this post
What the hell have you come up with?
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Don't fight fire with fire when it comes to negativity, guys ^^ Can't change everyone's mind just focus what works for you
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i realized when they make lots of spine crawlers they're about the same amount of workers as me, because when they're making d and roaches, they usually overreact, allowing me to be ahead economically, i decided to throw down a nexus, add 5 more gates and allin, works like a charm.
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Pylons you do a total of 10gates off 2 base? To me that seems a bit overkill, unless you're like MASSING sentries with all 4 gas early. I would recommend maybe 7 or 8 with +1 instead.
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Finding that this fails nearly every time I use it in platinum. Every zerg that doesn't cheese with a RR or early pool blind builds a ton of spine crawlers in their natural (checked, they aren't scouting the 2 extra gates) so you can't really touch them with this.
Then you end up with a delayed expansion which you usually end up trying to hold verses some sort of 2 base all in. For me it's been working out as a contain which requires constant attention (to ff etc) which allows me to keep a zerg on 2 base (good) and then coin flip that I pick the right tech to counter whatever he's going to all in with (nydus, burrowed roaches, mass baneling drops, mutas etc).
I'm not saying my execution is perfect but I think that it will probably work a lot better against better players who won't waste drones on defense "just in case".
But in general I'm finding that I'm at a loss as to what to do vs zerg at the moment as a lot of zergs have realised how greedy you can be vs a FFE and are getting to 80 drones in the first few minutes of the game.
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On August 11 2011 03:12 RudePlague wrote:
...builds a ton of spine crawlers in their natural (checked, they aren't scouting the 2 extra gates) so you can't really touch them with this.
Then you end up with a delayed expansion which you usually end up trying to hold verses some sort of 2 base all in. For me it's been working out as a contain which requires constant attention (to ff etc) which allows me to keep a zerg on 2 base (good) and then coin flip that I pick the right tech to counter whatever he's going to all in with (nydus, burrowed roaches, mass baneling drops, mutas etc).
1. Scout the large number of spines building in their natural prior to warping in a lot of zealots.
2. Use the money you would have spent on those zealots to build your natural only slightly later.
3. Be even in workers because he built a lot of spines and you didn't stop building probes.
4. Scout his main with hallucination so that you don't have to guess about his tech.
5. Now it's a standard game.
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Good points galivet. Another thing to note is just because you HAVE 5 gateways doesn't mean you have to USE 5 gateways. The good thing about your gateway army is it's pretty mobile, and you can usually find little vulnerabilities to do some damage no matter what their defense looks like. So, if it looks like he's adequately prepared you may consider using less units and just trying to do "light" pressure and poke at his more vulnerable areas, warping in maybe 2-3 units at a time instead of 5 so you can still afford your nexus and be even or ahead in the macro-game.
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I have tried this build since seeing this thread and i can say it works great. However it completely hinges upon the zerg not scouting your additional gateways, and not being suspicious of the sheer amount of zealots and sentries you have. My only really concern is whether or not this attack holds up against spine crawlers? I've found that even with a significant amount of zealots/sentries spines still do a ton of dmg and can fend of the push.
Also, if one sees spines and decides it wouldn't be a good idea to engage, is their a possibility to transition using this build? or is it simply an all in?
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It depends on how many spines they make, Ryguy. If there are 2 or 3, it's possible to break it as long as their unit count isn't too big. However, if they have 4or5 spines and a queen with energy to transfuse, you might be better off not engaging at all.
It's not an all in, you can definitely put down a nexus if there is too much defense. It'll be delayed but if you're making a decent amount of probes while you push out, you're not far behind because he's spent a lot of his minerals/larva on spines/lings.
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I take back everything i said negative about this build, i was doing it wrong the entire time, ive been trying to do this build with 22 probes until i realized you can support it better with 30.
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When I sometimes play Protoss I use this build but I get way too much minerals. What am I doing wrong?
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I am a high master zerg, so my words are probably worthless against GM players. But normally when toss does sentry expand, their nexus goes down at 6:00, 6:10 min mark sharp. If I see a nexus any later I assume an aggressive build and add spines (maybe spore if i suspect DT or void ray)
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EPT
