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Using Math and BO calculators you can construct an optimized agressive build at any arbitrary timing.
Since Z tend to play standard most of the time, its simple to find a timing where most of the Z have a peak of ongoing investments (without return yet there or worthless, e.g. spire/mutas, mass upgrades or right after he expanded and pumped 16 drones).
This will yield a good winrate on ladder even when executed blindly, as the Z will have to hit YOUR timing regarding defense.
So depending on metagame, a 4/5/6/7/8 gate build gets hyped until it gets too popular and zergs modify their builds to shift their point of weakness to another timing. If the Z chooses to play "safe" he'll likely will get outmacroed. So there are years to come with constant timing shifts in the metagame ;-).
For the Zerg this means: Better do not play too standard (especially regarding timings of investments), as it will raise the odds to die to a blind timing push.
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Okay, it's either me or this bulid gets absolutely blown up by Mass Roaches or mass roaches/lings.
I'm in silver, so there is a chance it is just me, but so far I'm 0-3 against zergs who have either gone mass roaches or lings/roaches.
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Okay, so can someone tell me these "rush maps" so I can thumbs them down so I will never have to face this? :3
I hate protoss already, and I'll end up smashing my computer if this ever happens to me.
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Obviously, this build is not something to use every single game. However, with a 3 gate expand, Zergs are generally free to drone up a lot with only a few scouting zerglings. If you throw this build into the mix every now and then, a Zerg player who's droning will be forced to play it safer and build more units, or die to this build on the off-chance that it's being used.
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For those wondering, depending on how you gas in your PvZ, to a standard 14pool/15hatch with fast 3rd, and 14gas/14pool into spanishiwa , this build hits as if it were a high-econ 4gate (build gates at 26supply), but with 5gates.
You can get roach ling, but definitely not mass roach, let alone burrow - unless you rush it so fast you have nothing to burrow
You WILL have burrow/tunneling if he places a nexus and goes for a nexus cancel style though
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Yeah you definitely can't go hydra, burrow, or infestor against this push - it just comes too early.
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On August 06 2011 11:59 imdahman wrote:
Okay, it's either me or this bulid gets absolutely blown up by Mass Roaches or mass roaches/lings.
I'm in silver, so there is a chance it is just me, but so far I'm 0-3 against zergs who have either gone mass roaches or lings/roaches.
In silver people always makes more units than they should without any scouting information.
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in all fairness alot of games i play vs zerg effectively turn into a massroachathon.
any half decent zerg will have roaches knocking on your door just under 6mins, there is no way to hold that off at all with just sentries and zealots.
you essentially have to scout to see if the zerg goes eco, but lets be honest unless your in GM no other zergs out there go eco when they can just get roaches and wipe the floor with protoss.
so this build may work for the 200 people in GM but for the rest of us its pretty useless.
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On August 07 2011 11:10 iamtheoneneo wrote:
in all fairness alot of games i play vs zerg effectively turn into a massroachathon.
any half decent zerg will have roaches knocking on your door just under 6mins, there is no way to hold that off at all with just sentries and zealots.
you essentially have to scout to see if the zerg goes eco, but lets be honest unless your in GM no other zergs out there go eco when they can just get roaches and wipe the floor with protoss.
so this build may work for the 200 people in GM but for the rest of us its pretty useless.
Impossible to hold roach with sentries/zealot??? FF your ramp bro. Roach all in is SO easy to scout and so easy to defend, I haven't really seen it since I was gold and bellow.
With this many units you'd own the roach all in and set yourself up for either a safe expand or counter push.
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On August 07 2011 11:10 iamtheoneneo wrote:
in all fairness alot of games i play vs zerg effectively turn into a massroachathon.
any half decent zerg will have roaches knocking on your door just under 6mins, there is no way to hold that off at all with just sentries and zealots.
you essentially have to scout to see if the zerg goes eco, but lets be honest unless your in GM no other zergs out there go eco when they can just get roaches and wipe the floor with protoss.
so this build may work for the 200 people in GM but for the rest of us its pretty useless.
no offense but you're just really really bad. However, yes, you are correct. It is less effective in the silver league because most zergs don't try to get as many drones as they can get away with in the early stages of the game. instead they like to mass roach because they are insecure, or because they see a zealot and think mass zealots will follow, or because they didn't see the low ground pylon and have no idea that the potential for an expansion is coming, or because they have no sense of timing in any game that they play. take your pick, all valid reasons.
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I've taken for granted that a protoss all in is coming if the expansion isn't up by 6:30 or atleast around that time. Given that my build has +1 speedlings by that time I should be safe if I build some spines.
I'd love to test it though.
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On August 07 2011 16:48 tuestresfat wrote:
no offense but you're just really really bad. However, yes, you are correct. It is less effective in the silver league because most zergs don't try to get as many drones as they can get away with in the early stages of the game. instead they like to mass roach because they are insecure, or because they see a zealot and think mass zealots will follow, or because they didn't see the low ground pylon and have no idea that the potential for an expansion is coming, or because they have no sense of timing in any game that they play. take your pick, all valid reasons.
no offense taken - if bad is master league then i accept being bad lol.
mass roach is pretty common in alot of the games i play, i hold it off thats my point and iv tried this strat a few times and it just isnt that viable against any half decent zerg.
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Lol.. I enjoy the guy above saying what's viable and what isn't when the build is being laid out by a GM protoss via one of the top (if not #1) North American protosses.
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I love this build, as a Z player that punishes 4-gates!
If i scout a 4-gate with my 9/supply drone scout, then i immediately go for a 12 pool, get the speed upgrade and pump lings. Move out with slow lings @ about 20, and then when you're right outside the door to his base speed will finish so reinforcements will be soon to follow.
20+ lings vs 1 - 3 zealots and a couple of sentries will break through easily.
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I've been doing this build every game pvz with moderate success.
Here's the deal: it counters spanishiwa build hard. They have no gas to do anything but speedlings, which your zealots chop up.
It gets hard countered by: fast roaches. The timing hits at about 7:30 to 8 min. By then a zerg can have 10-15 roaches ready up and you can't do squat because you have no stalkers. Any decent zerg won't get trapped by mass force fields.
ALSO, at the 6:30 mark before you start moving out, I've come across many zergs who come in and take out your 3 sentries and 1 zealot with mass lings before you hit the watch tower. If that happens, your push almost always fails automatically.
It also gets hard countered by mass speedling with 4+ spines. The spines do enough dps to keep you from taking down the hatch. I went against my friend and he droned hard to 50 drones and threw 5 spines and had speedlings. After he defended it, it was GG. My 27 probes cannot beat his 45 drones.
If you are in the mood, you can try this. But most high level zerg will scout your units coming and automatically throw down enough spines to stop you.
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On August 05 2011 11:44 TangSC wrote:
I think this build would get there before infestors would be up, I'm not sure the earliest infestor timings but I think the best response is defensive spinecrawlers and roach/ling.
Agreed, really cant see infestors being out for this.
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It's a good build yes.., but counterable, indeed more scouting u can sack 2 ovie's if u dont trust it... and I always have a ling behind his natural mineral line to check for exp, and like you said controle xelnaga towers, and 1 ling for his base to see if he is comming..that said I think it counterable..
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Great build, haven't lost a single game with it. 
~1500p master season 2.
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On August 08 2011 06:19 iamtheoneneo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 16:48 tuestresfat wrote:
no offense but you're just really really bad. However, yes, you are correct. It is less effective in the silver league because most zergs don't try to get as many drones as they can get away with in the early stages of the game. instead they like to mass roach because they are insecure, or because they see a zealot and think mass zealots will follow, or because they didn't see the low ground pylon and have no idea that the potential for an expansion is coming, or because they have no sense of timing in any game that they play. take your pick, all valid reasons. no offense taken - if bad is master league then i accept being bad lol. mass roach is pretty common in alot of the games i play, i hold it off thats my point and iv tried this strat a few times and it just isnt that viable against any half decent zerg.
could you please link your profile? I find that very very hard to believe lol
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EPT
