Ruthless PvZ Build for New Rush Maps (Season 3 GM) - Page 7

ForeverSleep

Canada920 Posts

July 22 2011 01:58 GMT

#121

On July 22 2011 09:45 Probe1 wrote:

A design flaw in zerg scouting.

I stand by, this build has no intrinsic special trait to it. It comes down to scouting it.

Like 4 gate...
Like roach allin...
like marine banshee tank allin...
Like every single build in starcraft, when I come to think of it, right?

Meff

Italy287 Posts

July 22 2011 17:21 GMT

#122

Ehm... no. Not every single build in SC2 translates to a direct loss if scouted.

(not that the proposed one necessarily does so, but I think that this was the point that Probe1 was trying to make)

Grokken

Sweden245 Posts

July 22 2011 17:57 GMT

#123

I don't think people understands exactly how hard this is to scout as a zerg. On a lot of maps you cannot get an overlord in place to sacrifice, and you cant really get past the wall in either. The only way of scouting it is if you suicide your lings to see if there is an expansion up, which is not very good if it is a 3 gate expand. It's of course not too strong if scouted, but the strength of the build is that it is very hard to scout, so I definitely think it's a viable build

MMXMoto-X17

Barbados23 Posts

July 22 2011 18:25 GMT

#124

this isn't new, nor did he invent it, considering its not even that hard to invent, and i bet a lot of people just throw down 5 gates and attack after +20 seconds warpgate. Even me occasionally.

SethDrone

United States51 Posts

July 22 2011 18:34 GMT

#125

Dense people will be dense.

The thread does not say new build, it says PvZ build for new maps. It is a solid guide that reiterates a viable strat and how it might be benficial with the impending changes.

All of the; "it's been done before" and "it's scoutable" replies are about as useful as the "I'm at work right now but...." posts.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 25 2011 03:40 GMT

#126

I've been doing this on a practice account in PvT and PvT. I went 121/48 (But the MMR was silver at the start)

Jaxtyk

United States600 Posts

July 25 2011 04:00 GMT

#127

its a 5 gate that gets shut down by scouting. No zerg should assume that a protoss is going to expand just because he has a lot of sentries ._.

fullmetalcatz

United States3 Posts

July 25 2011 04:10 GMT

#128

this seems like an awesome build

Universum

Canada192 Posts

July 25 2011 04:14 GMT

#129

Hey Tang,

Can you please upload the replay from this game you casted, because stealing the BO for analysis from a video on youtube isn't exactly accurate (Chronoboosts go where, Supply list etc...)

Thank You

mothergoose729

United States666 Posts

July 25 2011 04:26 GMT

#130

I think a big tell, especially for high level zergs is the late nexus. I am no pro, but I always know something is up with a protoss if they don't expand by six minutes, so by seven minutes I would be considering the options. I am pretty sure a really good player like sheth or sen who are really good at counting sentries would be able to figure this out. Certainly a guy like nestea.

Some simple logic can be used here... if protoss has the maximum number of sentries possible but no nexus... then they aren't saving gas for something like DTs and they are saving minerals for... well probably gateways. Simpler said then done ofc. My point being is that it is scoutable in that sense. The build could be stronger if the protoss hides some of its units maybe.

I won't claim to know better then kiwikaki, but I think this build has a skill cap somewhere around progamer, and I imagine as the game matures and zergs on the ladder all around start to get better the competitiveness of rushes like this will eventually start to diminish.

Felo

Germany392 Posts

July 25 2011 09:00 GMT

#131

On July 25 2011 13:14 Universum wrote:
Hey Tang,

Can you please upload the replay from this game you casted, because stealing the BO for analysis from a video on youtube isn't exactly accurate (Chronoboosts go where, Supply list etc...)

Thank You

He can't, because he wants you to subscribe to his channel

Similar to big tournaments that don't want to give out replays because they rely on you seeing their VoDs for Ads or even buy a season ticket.

Regarding the build: this game isn't that representive because you actually haven't scouted a thing - if you had seen him move out with that, then you would have been able to put up enough spines and roaches.

This wouldn't make him lose the game but it would prolong the game as he would be forced to pull back and expand - so you would enter the mid game on nearly even footing because you invested a lot in defense and he invested a lot in his attack force, the concept is similar to Losiras Roach/Ling-Attack that can end the game against an enemy that misses whats going on (or failmicros) but it can also transition nicely into a regular game.

I was actually using this build for 10 or so games against Zergs ranging from High Masters Guys to Dimaga (Who expected it btw as soon as I wasn't there with my nexus at ~06:30 and putted up crawlers immediatly - there won't be air or dts coming with that much gas tied up in the sentry count so he can prepare for an ground attack).

Its a good build but you need to know when to stop and just macro up ^^

I'm sticking with Forge-FE on Maps that allow it, 3Gate-Sentry-Expand on Maps that don't allow it and 3Gate-Stargate-Expand on close position - theres no use for that build in my roster but if you feel agressive and want to practice your Force Fields than this build is definitely a good idea.

syno

Switzerland150 Posts

July 25 2011 09:24 GMT

#132

On July 18 2011 03:37 Shifft wrote:
I'm pretty sure I remember Whitera doing this build in beta, especially on Shakuras.

Shakuras in the beta? ;-)

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

July 25 2011 10:57 GMT

#133

While I don't think I could beat kiwikaki either, a couple things bother me here in this game:

1) Lack of lings. I never see any lings die in this game, which to me denotes you didn't make any. Maybe this is wrong, but since I can't see a replay and only kiwi's perspective of a youtube vid, then I can't say for sure. It looks like you have no lings at either tower and no lings outside his base for the duration of the game.

2) Overlord scouting I think wouldn't really reveal much. It looks to me at least that a smart base layout for this build would "hide" 2 gates on either side of the base, so that an OL sac will leave feeling satisfied, given the sentry count + 2gates. So while I don't see you sac an OL, I don't think it changes this build or reaction.

3) 3-gate expand timing if I'm not mistaken should be around 6:15-6:30. He doesn't clear his natural until ~6:40, and there's no probe below his ramp, which means he wouldn't drop his nexus until ~6:50 minimum, very late for 3-gate sentry expand. (On a minor note, it's highly clever of him to put 2 sentry warp in at the bottom of ramp and 2 sentry warp in at the top so that even if yo uscout his ramp you can't see that he warped in 4 sentries at once, little very clever tactic by kiwi)

4) I think taking the third before he takes his natural is a very questionable move. By 7 minutes you know this is coming because your natural OL should see no expo, and you can see his force (which is too large for 3gates) is revealed on the bottom tower. This gives you exactly 45 seconds to produce AND get below your ramp every unit you hope to use to defend this push.

5) I barely played any 1v1 this season but when I played in season 1, the standard defense for zerg against a 3-gate sentry push is double spine and some speedlings, with MAYBE a few roaches. Because roaches are easily FF'd away, it's better to use lings to surround from behind once in range of spines. Is there a reason you chose pure roach to defend this?

In an ideal situation, I see a zerg doing the following things differently, and I'm not sure how it might change the outcome:

1) OL sac. This SHOULDN'T reveal anything due to how he has his gates split, since they are on opposite sides of the base. Still, I'd expect to see this even though it doesn't change anything

2) No 3rd until he takes his natural. If he then cancels, you can also cancel. Going +2 bases against a Protoss who has yet to expand is overly greedy. Sheth has an awesome article on TL about how far ahead you can be economically and survive an all-in at time X in the game. (Sorry I don't have a link available.)

3) Ling outside his ramp, ling hiding behind his natural, lings at both towers. For 4 lings, you make it difficult for him to completely hide what he's doing. While you don't see the 5 gates, and the sentry count, while high, is very difficult to be suspicious of... you CAN clearly see the lack of pylon, natural probe or very late nexus. All 3 of these should tell you to be careful.

4) 2 spine crawlers. I've always seen the "standard" hold of 3-gate sentry expand push to be double spine and some speedlings. It only takes 3 shots + 1 tap to kill a sentry. You can micro the spines to attack only the sentries. In this case I'd drop 2 additional spines for a total of 4, and I'd start those 2 spines at 7 minutes when there's no natural + this large force revealed at the xel naga. If you "overreact" it only costs you 50-75 minerals between cancels and lost mining time.

This is clearly a strong build built on deception, but I don't feel like it's overly powerful. Kiwikaki's execution is flawless, and I'm sure he's having great success with this on ladder because of the build's surprise and its quality of execution. That said, there are still tell-tale signs that you can react to in time, and while I can't comment with specific regard to other matches he's done this to, I feel like there's a good chance most players are lazily reacting to what looks like a 3-gate sentry expand to the untrained eye, and then due to greed lack the necessary defense. You hint at this in your video, and I think this is probably the other reason this build is working so well for him.

Also I PM'd you with some personal comments not germane to the thread.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 25 2011 19:55 GMT

#134

I made a lot of cuts to do a 3hatch push, like I said. Besides, this isn't a zerg tutorial.

silverhand

United States91 Posts

July 26 2011 04:19 GMT

#135

Just wanted to thank the OP for this thread. I'm silver, but have been playing all gold players since the ladder was locked (hoping to get promoted in season 3) and PvZ has been my weakest matchup. I prefer aggressive builds and most of the PvZ builds I find are either blatantly passive, or passive and feign aggression. This one feigns passivity and provides aggression. While I can't speak for the masters level and up (although I plan to try this in my Geforce ProAm matches against some master zergs this week) yet

I can confidently state against gold players that are even aggressive with roaches/lings, I'm winning (unless I screw up my FF's which is hard to do with this many sentries).

I've been able to deny scouting so far and my biggest problem with the original 3gate sentry expand was that I never had enough unit producing structures when the zerg hit my expansion to defend. I tried MC's FFE into Stargate, but quite frankly my micro isn't good enough with phoenix to pull it off more than 50% of the time. With this build, I can warp in 5 zealots if I see a push coming and easily defend it with proper FF's.

It's more all-in than I like my aggression to be, but once I can beef up my macro/micro skills to be able to handle an MC-style stargate build, this will still be a great build to keep in my PvZ arsenal.

Thanks again!

TheAntZ

Israel6248 Posts

July 26 2011 05:24 GMT

#136

On July 26 2011 04:55 TangSC wrote:
I made a lot of cuts to do a 3hatch push, like I said. Besides, this isn't a zerg tutorial.

Hey Tang, are you going to ignore these posts?

On July 25 2011 18:00 Felo wrote:

Show nested quote +

He can't, because he wants you to subscribe to his channel

Similar to big tournaments that don't want to give out replays because they rely on you seeing their VoDs for Ads or even buy a season ticket.

DiAblo,cL

Chile6 Posts

July 26 2011 05:49 GMT

#137

this isnt a Kiwikaki built, i saw this at IEM to STsquirtle, in the match vs MooN,... gimme a break,

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 26 2011 21:01 GMT

#138

Well KiWi uses it frequently with great success so it's still worth learning.

Zedoych

Canada57 Posts

July 26 2011 21:20 GMT

#139

It seems to me that your scouting was just far too infrequent. no expo at 6:30 should have been nonstop unit production like you said; as well as spines. Very well timed push from Kiwi though. Once a toss has that many units and unlimited forcefielding of the ramp the game is over

I personally have not come across this build before, but I'll certainly keep the possibility of it in the back of my mind when I scout a 3 gate expo.

EDIT:
Haha I say I've never seen it before and the first game I play after reading this post someone does this exact build to me. I managed to get rid of the proxies and the probe early enough however. Thank god for that.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 27 2011 14:06 GMT

#140

Yeah defending this as zerg really comes down to:

1) Scouting: the expansion between the 6:15-6:45 mark, holding the xel-naga towers, using a few zerglings to scour every nook and cranny potentially hiding a pylon.
2) Responding: As soon as somethings up at 6:30, a big round of roaches and 2-3 spines should be your first goal. I'm debating whether making lings would be worth it to defend; considering the amount of zealot/sentry, spines and roaches may be best. Maybe reinforcing with lings once the toss army is at your natural, since they build faster.

Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 12 Next All

Please or register to reply.

Ruthless PvZ Build for New Rush Maps (Season 3 GM) - Page 7

Completed

Ongoing

Upcoming