From testing I find this is a really good build assuming the zerg is going an econ build. It's near impossible to stop even if there are 2-3 spines up already.
I find however the meta (at least at high diamond/low masters) so many zergs are inclined to scout what is seen as 3 gate expo and plan on doing a losira roach ling timing attack. I've lost plenty of games where the zerg has crushed this and by the time u see it (especially when they are also hiding their intention to do this) your zealots and sentries are not getting away.
Maybe once I hit a level when zergs dont respond to an expansion by doing heavy roach ling agression (I wont call it an all in) it may become more useful on ladder.
White-ra was doing stuff like this around 6-9 months ago against zergs, scary but defendable but most zergs bring ovi through the back and scout the front. i reccoment putting some by nexus and deny scouting, or proxy. But i seem to be able to scout gateways decently.
old build, is just a 5 gate zealot sentry allin. people have been doing this for ages. i say its an allin cause you rely a lot on tricking your opponent into thinking you are doing a fast expand.
it is similar to ogsmc's nexus cancel 4 gate, except making 5 GATES on 1 base which imo is allinish.
I'm not sure how top zergs in NA can have problem stopping this. If you don't see nexus at 6:00min mark as zerg player you start making units. Also got no clue how a zerg will let a pylon be nearby his base. Even diamond zerg in EU scouts for those. When a Protoss player moves out I would had 50 zerglings surroundings hes army. This build would never work against a decent zerg player like myself.
Thanks for a guide on a five gate all-in korean nexus canceling is far and away better trumpstyle explains exactly why this build is really not that good.
Keep talkin', guys. I assure you it's not as easy to defend as you're making it sound but when you run into Kiwi on the ladder and you beat his zealot/sentry push, I'd like to see the replay ^^
lower leagues if you can execute a 4 gate well you can win 95% of the time. my friend who plays terran got a hold of an account at gold (he is masters) only 4 gated and got to a record of 60-4. All short games.
this build seems like it has potential but it is nothing to different. The only thing is that you have 5 gates instead of 4 if you lose. I like the idea because you maybe be better prepared to defend a counter after the initial rush. But as for an expo and mid game transition... money seems a little tight unless you do big damage to your opponent. (That is kind of what an all-in is...)
I'd like to ask kiwikaki what he thinks of this build!
Thanks for post Tang, something new to try and keep zerg from rushing to infestors.
For everyone saying this strat is old old old old, if you read the OP his point is this may be more effective come the new maps, which makes the strat relevant again.
For everyone saying this is big-time fail can we get some replays of you either a) beating this, or b) losing with it.... instead of just theorycraft.
On July 20 2011 21:01 TangSC wrote: Keep talkin', guys. I assure you it's not as easy to defend as you're making it sound but when you run into Kiwi on the ladder and you beat his zealot/sentry push, I'd like to see the replay ^^
Yes, but you are talking about yourself, onlyma moderately really good player (I hope that makes sense) going against a pro who is using what is apparently a 5-Gate all-in.
Thanks for the video, I was hoping this build might replace my own sentry fake expand, 4 gate all-in. But I dont think it's going to because this push is SOooooOooO late (moving out around 6:40, a good zerg will know something is up, because a normal 3 gate FE goes down at 5:50. I have had my own sentry 4 gate all in fail multiple times because a good zerg will know whats up when he doesnt see an expo by 6:10ish at the LATEST.
On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote: i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely.
Kiwi was rank 1 in gm and this build won for him many time. I'm not sure what you mean by will win 95% in the lower leagues. This actually won't win in the lower leagues. This build relies on the fact that they will scout a 3 gate expand. A low level player doesn't correctly react to what he scouts and just follows a basic build which totally negates the fact that you are faking a 3 gate expo. In the higher leagues when the zerg scouts he sees a 3 gate expo and doesn't get the correct defenses for 5 gates.
On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote: i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely.
Kiwi was rank 1 in gm and this build won for him many time. I'm not sure what you mean by will win 95% in the lower leagues. This actually won't win in the lower leagues. This build relies on the fact that they will scout a 3 gate expand. A low level player doesn't correctly react to what he scouts and just follows a basic build which totally negates the fact that you are faking a 3 gate expo. In the higher leagues when the zerg scouts he sees a 3 gate expo and doesn't get the correct defenses for 5 gates.
Its better in the lower leagues as it's easier to pull off then to hold. If you get that FF he can only get reinforcements from 1 hatch meaning that he's dead. You need to have roaches and some lings up when he's about to enter your base so you can snipe off the sentries.
sooo you dont have a drone to scout in the base you can micro it like forever against sentry you dont have ling to poke at his ramp you dont have lings at the xel naga towers you dont even try to scout with ove and you expect to take this build serious rly? and im not saying the build isn't good or something im just saying that u dont scout at all and its funny,.
On July 22 2011 00:53 Joseph123 wrote: sooo you dont have a drone to scout in the base you can micro it like forever against sentry you dont have ling to poke at his ramp you dont have lings at the xel naga towers you dont even try to scout with ove and you expect to take this build serious rly? and im not saying the build isn't good or something im just saying that u dont scout at all and its funny,.
I understand Tang's unease at playing kiwikaki, and his fairly low scouting because of it; however, Tang, you really did not scout at all against him.. as in.. AT ALL.
You did not know his second gas timing, did not poke up his ramp with zerglings, did not sac an overlord, did not check or delay the expo, did not secure xel'nagas, and literally did not scout him until the proxy pylon was on your creep.
Now, perhaps maybe the psychological effect of playing KiWi lost you some scouting, but the absolute ESSENTIALS given to zerg (100% assured xel'naga control after 4 zerglings are out), extremely high guarantee of basic unit composition scouting with zergling pokes, and the ability to check for an expansion, and SEE the push coming ~30 seconds before it hits were things you did not do at all.
Maybe you would've died anyway even if you scouted the push coming 30 seconds before, but at least you would have another round of units on the way and 1/2 spine crawlers, and that would help you hold a lot better.
Haha believe me I know, there's a lot of things I could have done differently but it doesn't mean the build Kiwi used is any less effective/strong. I was going for an all-in, heavy 3hatch roach/ling bust - a build that requires a lot of drones in the early stages but is very difficult to hold 2bases. It's something I've used to great effect on backwater gulch because people often go 3gate expand into stargate and like I said I really wasn't expecting this type of push. The focus should be more on his build, though, as I'm certain it'll be an asset for close-spawn or rush maps.
On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote: I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones!
I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this?
A design flaw in zerg scouting.
I stand by, this build has no intrinsic special trait to it. It comes down to scouting it.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YPwD5.jpg)
