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Epic PvZ Rush: KiwiKaki-Style 5Gate Zealot/Sentry
![[image loading]](http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/TangLogo2.png)
TL Stream Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=286050
Examples/Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +Here is a tutorial of this build on youtube: Here is a game showcasing how Zerg can respond to this type of pressure:
The Concept
+ Show Spoiler +This is a build ROOTKiWiKaKi did to me. He was rank1 Grand Master at the time and this is the exact build he does in almost every other ladder PvZ. No matter how high your MMR is, at least on the NA ladder you will never reach a point where zerg players are consistently defending this if executed optimally. It relies heavily on subtle alterations and exact timings, but if your timings are on and you deny scouting it’s VERY hard to predict and prepare for as a zerg. The interesting thing about the build is any time before the 6:30 mark, if the zerg player scouts it looks like a sentry expand - you still have sentries at the top of the ramp when he ling scouts and you still build a pylon at the bottom of the ramp at the correct time. Therefore, it's excellent for catching players off-guard and winning fast games (Ideal for rush-maps like some of the new Season3) Thank you very much for checking it out, guys!
The Build
+ Show Spoiler +9: Pylon - At the ramp, the pylon power should just barely reach the top of your ramp, you should scout with the probe. Try to hide this probe after you scout his opening, somewhere you can proxy later.
10: Rally - this probe to scout for an overlord coming from close positions (On maps like Metalopolis and Shattered). When the pylon finishes, immediately chronoboost probes. When Chronoboost wears off, immediately use a second one on probes up to 14.
14: Gateway – Build this gateway to semi-wall in at the top edge of your ramp. Also, as soon as you have 25 energy on nexus chronoboost probes for the 3rd and final time.
15: Gas – Gas is key in this build, do not forget to fill it immediately
17: Pylon – Use 2nd pylon at the front to power gateway as well
17: Gas - Gas is key in this build, do not forget to fill it immediately
18: CyberCore – Build beside your gateway at front, leaving a small gap for a zealot to wall in.
19: Zealot – Depending on what you scout, you may opt to chronoboost this guy but typically you won’t.
22: Pylon – Build somewhere in back of base where 1) Zerglings that scout up ramp wouldn’t see and 2) somewhere scouting overlords wouldn’t see. Typically, somewhere behind the mineral line is ideal.
23: WarpTech/Sentry – Chronoboost both immediately (You will chrono your warp tech 3 times) Continue building sentries and probes until 30 food.)
30: Build 4 Gateways! - 2 gateways somewhere near the front (Somewhere a scouting zergling will see them). Also, though, build 2 gateways somewhere in the back, where you built your pylon on 22. Do not build a single probe or anything until 4 gateways are being warped in. You should have 30 food before you start the gates and 30 food immediately after.
31: Sentry
33: Pylon – Build at the bottom of your ramp, similar to what a 3gate expo looks like. Bring zealot/sentries down the ramp to clear out any scouting zerglings around your expo area.
34: Pylon again (Crucial) Go back into probe production, warp in as many sentries as you can and move out.
Executing the Push
+ Show Spoiler +At 7:00 you should be moving out with 12 units, your initial probe that you hid at the beginning should have a proxy pylon building, and you should have a bit of supply saved up to continue warping in aggressively. By 50 food, you should be planting a pylon RIGHT outside his creep (as close as you can get) and warping in constantly. Go right for the ramp and force field over and over. You have TONS of sentries with this build, so do not be cagey when it comes to using them to defend yourself. Oftentimes, you’ll win outright, but as you practice the build more and more you’ll see that you CAN produce probes throughout this engagement and you have the sentry count needed to fall back and get a nexus up. You will win enough games outright to make the build +EV, and if you perfect your follow-throughs, I think you'll almost always do enough damage to make up for getting a later nexus
Best of luck to all of you in your games, have a blast in season 3.
-Tang
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Very good build, only problem I see is against a lot of spinecrawlers? But perhaps that won't be big of a deal if you micro your sentries properly. Would be really cool to see the game or a few games by KiWiKaKi executing this build. Please edit your thread when the game is up on your youtube channel!
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Would have loved to see replays/videos right now. Otherwise i'm just going to forget it when you actually post it.
Sounds interesting though, will give it a try if i find it.
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Would be better imo to post a replay instead of a youtube video. That way people can see all of the ins and outs of the game not just the build order you show.
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A replay would be appreciated.
Also, did you consider getting hallucinate, not for scouting but for hallucinating some zealots/stalkers to help you in combat? I mean, it doesn't really cost you much, and since you have so many sentries, you may very well have enough energy anyways.
I feel like chances are, a Zerg won't rush for overseer/sporecrawler when he sees a 3gate sentry expand.
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Oh I saw this build in his match history lol. Cool, will try it.
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I use this from time to time against terran on tal'darim. I hide 2 gates outside my base so it looks like 3 gate expo for some time, then i come with shit ton of units, reinforcing with 5 gates. Altho i have it slightly delayed so i cen reinforce even with 5 stalkers. I think i lost only one time with this build ^^
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wow a hidden 5 gate allin
seriously thats what you came up after more than a year starcraft 2?
User was warned for this post
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Yeah sorry for the delay with examples, I'll try to have some up by tomorrow and will edit the thread. I haven't tried with hallucination but it's something to consider. A lot of zerg will have 2-3 spines but you'd be surprised how easy it is to kill spines with zealots lol
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I can't tell if this a troll post or serious post lol. A 5 gate all-in, doesn't sound new or interesting at all.
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I've faced this several times before and the counter is definitely spine crawlers, which makes it difficult to defend on maps like Xel'naga Caverns. You can pretty much always come out even or ahead on that map. However on other maps like Shakuras or Shattered temple, if you are stopped by spines you're in a bad spot but if you don't sack your sentries you can come back with a 2 base timing before he has burrow movement or mutalisk.
On July 17 2011 22:25 phil.ipp wrote:
wow a hidden 5 gate allin
seriously thats what you came up after more than a year starcraft 2?
i laughed
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this seems like an incorporation of what huk/mc's, whitera's, and minigun's (don't know if minigun originally came up with his idea) old builds.
huk/mc - 3gate dark templar but looks a lot like sentry expand.
they make a 15gate, 15gas, 16 pylon, 17gas. 15gate to allow for double gas before core (i believe you cut probes briefly if you 14gate, not a big deal though), chrono out zealot if you scout pool first and close spawn. this is insanely hard to scout because poking zerglings up the ramp will look exactly like a sentry expand, and they tend to throw the additional 2gates where overlords will be able to scout them.
whitera - 5gate all in
he uses it most on maps like shakuras where you can wall your natural. he opens with no wall off, then proceeds to make 2gateways at the natural ramp and throw 2 additional gates in his main. leaves a probe by the natural to make it look like an expansion is going up when he's really 5gate all inning.
minigun - 4gate all in
low ground pylon, standard 4gate delayed timing, and sentry count makes this really really hard to scout.
this build kiwi uses seems to incorporate a little of all these things.
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Cool build. May I know what unit mix do you warp in in front of the Zerg base? Do you go for Stalkers if theres Roaches or continue to Zealot and Sentries? I will be trying this off!!.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/TitusStarcraft?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/0/jV79f9uS-FE
Uses this against Terran as well, and the results are ridiculous. Metro is no push over either, normally using strange and oddly timed builds that run through even professional players on a regular basis if you watch some of his other videos.
The main thing about this five gate is the shear army size before the 10 min mark that no one is gonna be expecting, I simply do not know how any race could hold against this particular attack without heavy defense that would put you behind anyways, and its not even an all-in because Kiwikaki continues to make probes to full base saturation so it is possible to transition out it easily.
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Haha, this reminds me a little of some video I saw of minigun doing his "unstoppable" 4-gate all in.
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If you're macroing effectively, you shouldn't be able to afford stalkers. Kiwi used only zealot/sentry against me. It's the unit positioning/quantity of units that makes it so effective. Also, you deny early scouting and like I mentioned it really looks like a 3gate sentry expand so the zerg may be completely unprepared or may prepare minimally for like light 3gate pressure.
If you build your first 2 additional gates where they can be seen by zerglings and the second two somewhere hidden, there's really no way to know unless he's REALLY active with his lings and scouts your proxy.
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This build aganist may have a hard time aganist 2 base roach ling 7:30 push unless u have really good ff.
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upload the replay of kiwi crushing you
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On July 17 2011 22:25 phil.ipp wrote:
wow a hidden 5 gate allin
seriously thats what you came up after more than a year starcraft 2?
I laughed quite a bit. But this is true though. There's almost nothing special about this build other than being a 5 gate rush. No +1, or anything special. The Zerg can get spines with ling/roach and most likely hold off this attack.
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i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely.
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This type of secret gateway all-ins are not that uncommon already on the Masters level. I had someone build a Nexus, let me see it, and then canceled it and built 4 more Gates. -_-
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I'm not saying it's unstoppable or unscoutable, but if you do the build correctly you won't get scouted and the zerg will have no reason to get early roaches and lings and spines. And you very likely need all 3 to hold.
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United States15275 Posts
I saw LegalMind use this build against Byun in the Super Tournament. It's a very effective PvT strategy especially on large maps where the proxy gates can be easily hidden, plus marine/marauder isn't too effective against it without concussive shell.
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I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones!
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This has been around for ages. I even recall Inca doing this back in the beta.
If the zerg went for a roachling timing you will not be able to do any damage. This is only good if you know the particular zerg likes drones.
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I'd like to somewhat defend Tang here..
I see many posts already talking about zergs being aggressive instead of being safe when "scouting" this build. Even though some zergs still go to their roachling super aggressive timing every single game they think they are up against a 3 gate expo, the "metagame" HAS been shifting away from that style. Zergs are instead favoring mass speedlings, quick thirds, and infestors into ultras/broods.
The point of this build is to be "RUTHLESS" hence the title... If a zerg wants to roachling allin every single game against a 3 gate expo, then fine, maybe this build won't work out, but against the majority of macro-oriented zergs, this build has the potential to be a RUTHLESS 5 gate timing.
I actually used this build back in my diamond days quite a bit, mostly because I didn't know you couldn't support 5 gates off one base. In the past, I made stalkers zealots and sentries with the build and got resource burned out quite quickly... I was a nub.
I mentioned that story ^ because during those times I would proxy my two gates. This made the build virtually unscoutable. Basically, with your scouting probe, you make the 22/23 pylon in the most random location on the map. My variation of the build included chrono boosting as many probes as possible, basically getting up to exactly 30 probes by the time warpgate completed. This is advantageous because 1) if zerg sees your probe line with chronoes on the nexus, they will become less suspicious and 2) if the zerg runs lings into your front, and ovies from both sides there is no way you are going to able to stop their scouting.
Additionally, by saturating your base fully before cutting probes allows you maintain a perfect sentry zealot 5 gate production.. otherwise you will have the initial 1 or 2 warp ins with 5 units, but it will quickly dwindle down to only 3-4 gates at a time.
This is a great abusive and ruthless one base build against zergs who are macro oriented--the only thing i recommend is the hidden pylon and gates to fully complete the deception of a 3 gate expo.
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I'm pretty sure I remember Whitera doing this build in beta, especially on Shakuras.
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On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones!
you have to understand, when kiwikaki uses this build against a zerg opponent, he does it under the assumption his opponent is higher than silver league.
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On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely.
On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones!
I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YPwD5.jpg)
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On July 18 2011 02:24 denzelz wrote:
This type of secret gateway all-ins are not that uncommon already on the Masters level. I had someone build a Nexus, let me see it, and then canceled it and built 4 more Gates. -_-
I see that you are trying to build a nexus. Did you know that fOr the cost of just a few more minerals you can throw down three more gateways?
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Yeah like I said, when I played Kiwi he was Rank 1 GM
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id say there is a adaption / greed error in scouting for "pros" atm.
because this timing of the build and the timing of a sentry expand is vulerable to overlord scouting
how weird it seems but math whise it is.
because you show sentry and pylon down at your ramp means that he cant have like 2 stalkers up that early to deny vision.
And if there are stalkers you can tell that something is going on and throw 1 ( - 2 ) spines up and keep checking for a expansion cut except for 4 drones the drone production for 1 round if the ovi scout is denied .
and if there isnt stalker as in this build mentioned the ovi will be able to see everything.
Aswell as if sentrys go back up the ramp to get rid of the overlord he wont have units down the ramp where the pylon got placed and this is a vulerable attack spot if he goes for the ovi.
Cheese that works for not enough gamesense imo.
e: oh i just read in OP "get rid with zealot sentry of zergling" if you are talking about highest level zerglings wont die to zealot sentry because good players control they zerglings early against gateway units to stay in vision without losing them.
a cute guide of a build from beta nevertheless.
I just dont get why people would read guides rather then learn stuff and try themself its so much more effective then just reading something what works if your oppenent dont scout .
you can play realy solid any race if you want to but greed makes people vulerable because they want not lose eco race even if they can fend of any buildorder with not exactly knowing as early as possible what is going on.
All in all buildorderguides are something good for lower level that reads this forum but
who views more then just BO maths to punish greed more like adapting with openers to styles and try to get a read on your oppenent that is where strategy gets interesting not buildorders which are from beta.
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On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this?
i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile?
so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg?
If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels.
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Listen I don't want to get in arguments or anything. This is a build kiwi uses, that alone makes it a viable option. My goal is to provide an aggressive opener for toss to use on new maps, if you don't want to use it that's fine, but try to avoid the negativity as I'm sure a lot of people will learn to win with this build.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 18 2011 04:47 TangSC wrote:
Listen I don't want to get in arguments or anything. This is a build kiwi uses, that alone makes it a viable option. My goal is to provide an aggressive opener for toss to use on new maps, if you don't want to use it that's fine, but try to avoid the negativity as I'm sure a lot of people will learn to win with this build.
But it should be noted that this is an old build.
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On July 18 2011 04:44 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile? so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg? If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels.
No, ass, he's saying a guy with the highest MMR (quite possibly with that W/L ratio) runs this strat in tourneys, and against other top zergs on ladder, and brutally beats people with it.
I agree iamke55 -- strategy forum heros. Theorycraft pros.
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On July 18 2011 04:44 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile? so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg? If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels.
Ever check Kiwikaki's match history? This is the exact build he does in every ladder PvZ. No matter how high your MMR is, at least on the NA ladder you will never reach a point where zerg players are consistently defending this.
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On July 18 2011 04:56 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 04:44 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile? so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg? If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels. Ever check Kiwikaki's match history? This is the exact build he does in every ladder PvZ. No matter how high your MMR is, at least on the NA ladder you will never reach a point where zerg players are consistently defending this.
Sounds like a problem to me. But also, ladder isn't tournament. You can't simply win a BO3 or BO5 doing just this build which is what's important. This build is so easy I could easily do this and be masters in P and I don't even play P. Kind of a joke. Ladder doesn't mean much in the end though.
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So because you can't win every game in a bo3 or bo5 with 1 build you shouldn't do it?
Shut the fuck up.
This is a build Kiwikaki uses, which gives it instant credibility as opposed to your argument of "it won't work every time herpderp"
No shit sherlock.
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On July 18 2011 04:47 TangSC wrote:
Listen I don't want to get in arguments or anything. This is a build kiwi uses, that alone makes it a viable option. My goal is to provide an aggressive opener for toss to use on new maps, if you don't want to use it that's fine, but try to avoid the negativity as I'm sure a lot of people will learn to win with this build.
It's certainly a viable build that can win games, but against random people on the ladder, it's just a coinflip. If the zerg made units, you lose. If not, you win. You're completely all-in, and you have no way to scout to know if it's going to work or not.
That said, it's something you can use to good effect in a tournament against a zerg player you know doesn't usually make units early.
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On July 18 2011 04:58 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 04:56 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 04:44 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile? so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg? If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels. Ever check Kiwikaki's match history? This is the exact build he does in every ladder PvZ. No matter how high your MMR is, at least on the NA ladder you will never reach a point where zerg players are consistently defending this. Sounds like a problem to me. But also, ladder isn't tournament. You can't simply win a BO3 or BO5 doing just this build which is what's important. This build is so easy I could easily do this and be masters in P and I don't even play P. Kind of a joke. Ladder doesn't mean much in the end though.
You can't roach ling all in every fucking tournament bo-whatever game but it doesn't mean the build is completely unviable. People cannon rush one game in a series, but they don't do it every freaken game because that would be stupid and prone to getting blind countered.
If YOU truly believe this build is so easily scouted then don't fucking do it every game. The OP is just saying "hey, this is a pretty strong build that can mislead your opponent and earn you a nice win in a best of 3 scenario, or you can just try it on random ladder zergs". Stop bringing up so much irrelevant shit.
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On July 17 2011 21:31 TangSC wrote:By Tang (233) Chat Channel: TangStarcraft This is a build ROOTKiWiKaKi did to me (Tang 233), and considering he was rank1 Grand Master at the time, I assume it’s a build he uses often and with great success. I don't mean to advertise, and if it's out of line I'll take the link down, but I will be posting example videos on the replay/youtube tabs of my website so it seems relevant to include a link: www.TangStarcraft.com
:l
good build, very very old though.
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dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion.
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Excuse me, naive question but.. Zerg won't scout any expo by 7', won't he be a tad.. suspicious ? I mean the whole point of the build is to hide your gates and prepare for a strong push, but not expoing is completely giving it away.. he'll just drop a ton of spine crawlers and it's gg..
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The maps this build is good on are the same maps that are good for roach ling aggression which directly counters zealot sentry. This build is also extra vulnerable to standard early pools, even 11 overpool since you cut your first zealot for so long.
There are many ways for zerg to scout this, mineral walking a drone while using lings to take hits is one, also overlords around the edge of the base.
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I think if you scout the 11pool, you can just chrono your zealot. Also, there really aren't many ways to scout. That drone that mineral-walked in will die to sentries before the 4th and 5th gate finish, overlords will die before they get close to the 4th and 5th gate too. And I mean if you move out with your 12 units and roach/ling push is coming that early (7min) you can pull back and defend with 5 gates then counter, or opt to still put up a nexus if you feel you can't counter.
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Some random diamond just did this to Sen on TL Attack. He actually did pretty well. It was cross position metal... probably would have had a much better chance in a shorter rush map like the new season 3 maps.
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Reasons people think this build is bad and why i disagree:
Roach/ling aggression: This build is massing sentries, the ultimate solution to aggression, especially early game. Honestly, using the laws of good army control, there should be a probe on every flank, or the army should be hugging walls and chillin in tight corridors. Essential sentry push play.
Overlord Scouting: It just does not scout an entire base. GSL Finals oGsMC vs Julyzerg July had an ovie scout but he failed to see the dark shrine still. Such things can happen on maps that favor building hiding. It can happen, it does happen.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels.
That's just not true! What are you talking about? No one has perfect scouting and responses. Hell, oGsMC wins tons of games with these builds. Most builds are screwed or hamstrung if they are completely scouted. Builds should not be completely scouted, outside of Terran scans. oGsInka plays based on what his opponent sees, not what his opponent could see. People do it because it is viable..
Regarding the build: I love me a good push that can go back to producing probes and expansions as long as it does a little economy damage. This is one of those. Thanks OP :D
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On July 17 2011 22:25 phil.ipp wrote:
wow a hidden 5 gate allin
seriously thats what you came up after more than a year starcraft 2?
i think you mean a build that is similar to how all protoss played for the first 6months of the game when they thought 4gating/5gating was standard and when they lost it was because protoss was weak.
on a serious note, i'm interested to see how this works against losira style attakcs (cut drones @ 30-38~ make roaches/slings, take fast 3rd, power) i believe they will utterly rape this :X
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On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion.
If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it.
But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example:
4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg.
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On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg.
So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense?
what doesn't make sense about that?
At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion.
This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that.
I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 18 2011 06:15 TangSC wrote:
I think if you scout the 11pool, you can just chrono your zealot. Also, there really aren't many ways to scout. That drone that mineral-walked in will die to sentries before the 4th and 5th gate finish, overlords will die before they get close to the 4th and 5th gate too. And I mean if you move out with your 12 units and roach/ling push is coming that early (7min) you can pull back and defend with 5 gates then counter, or opt to still put up a nexus if you feel you can't counter.
The problem is he goes roach/ling and pushes you back you can't "counter" at all. He will continually outproduce you until he bashes your head in with superior production. And you're so behind in economy you'll never catch up unless he screws up his expansion timings. But the metagame is shifting away from roach/ling aggression against 3 gate sentry expand, so this will be more effective.
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You can get 5 gate charge lots by 7 minutes. Much less micro intensive and more dps.
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On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg. So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense? what doesn't make sense about that? At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion. This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that. I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you.
ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it?
The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims?
Your claims:
1. 95% win rate in lower leagues
2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time
3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter
4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this
5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down.
What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down.
Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build.
+ Show Spoiler +Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0
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On July 18 2011 06:38 quaffle wrote:
You can get 5 gate charge lots by 7 minutes. Much less micro intensive and more dps.
It also looks nothing like a 3gate expand.
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On July 18 2011 06:45 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg. So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense? what doesn't make sense about that? At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion. This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that. I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you. ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it? The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims? Your claims: 1. 95% win rate in lower leagues 2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time 3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter 4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this 5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down. What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down. Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build. + Show Spoiler +Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0
You're right about one thing and thats about it., I've never faced this build, because im a protoss player.
I've actually used this build many times at the highest level (many grandmaster players) and I have concluded that-
1. If scouted correctly, it can be defended by lots of spine crawlers.
2. There are other ways to scout besides getting an over-lord in, example, not seeing an expansion at 6 minutes and seeing lots of sentry makes no sense for a build, so the only option would be 5gate.
3. Game sense is much higher at the top levels, just look at nestea vs inca gsl finals, how did nestea know inca was going dt's? Did he ever get an overlord in? nope hes just a great player with good game sense.
4. Did I ever say the build wasn't viable? in any of my posts? no i did not. Its completely viable. I just said that I stopped using builds where I rely on my opponents to make mistakes/play bad, because I want to get better at the game and not do cheesy all ins.
5. You probably will get a 95% win rate with this in lower leagues because its a very easy build to pull off and very hard to defend, unless you are a high level zerg. obviously im making up the number but its a estimation, would you like me to get out statistics or some shit?
My point was- its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win.
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its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win.
What build doesn't rely on the mistakes on an opponent? As long as the mistakes aren't the kind that people over silver league stop making (and Kiwikaki shows that GMs still make these "mistakes") then the build is fine.
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On July 18 2011 06:54 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 06:45 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg. So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense? what doesn't make sense about that? At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion. This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that. I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you. ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it? The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims? Your claims: 1. 95% win rate in lower leagues 2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time 3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter 4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this 5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down. What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down. Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build. + Show Spoiler +Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0 You're right about one thing and thats about it., I've never faced this build, because im a protoss player. I've actually used this build many times at the highest level (many grandmaster players) and I have concluded that- 1. If scouted correctly, it can be defended by lots of spine crawlers. 2. There are other ways to scout besides getting an over-lord in, example, not seeing an expansion at 6 minutes and seeing lots of sentry makes no sense for a build, so the only option would be 5gate. 3. Game sense is much higher at the top levels, just look at nestea vs inca gsl finals, how did nestea know inca was going dt's? Did he ever get an overlord in? nope hes just a great player with good game sense. 4. Did I ever say the build wasn't viable? in any of my posts? no i did not. Its completely viable. I just said that I stopped using builds where I rely on my opponents to make mistakes/play bad, because I want to get better at the game and not do cheesy all ins. 5. You probably will get a 95% win rate with this in lower leagues because its a very easy build to pull off and very hard to defend, unless you are a high level zerg. obviously im making up the number but its a estimation, would you like me to get out statistics or some shit? My point was- its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win.
You win, I give up. You're beyond help.
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On July 18 2011 07:04 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win. What build doesn't rely on the mistakes on an opponent? As long as the mistakes aren't the kind that people over silver league stop making (and Kiwikaki shows that GMs still make these "mistakes") then the build is fine.
mistakes in a 6 minute game are a lot less common than a mistake in 20+ minute game.
And nobody plays starcraft 2 and plays the way you just described. Do you really believe players play hoping there opponent doesn't scout/know what build is coming? They hope they don't but they don't rely on it.
This build completely relies on your opponent to not scout it/respond correctly.
If you want an example of this build being beat just watch minigun vs morrow from the EG's masters cup.
Morrow responds perfectly with lots of spine crawlers and minigun is way behind.
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On July 18 2011 05:56 Nyast wrote:
Excuse me, naive question but.. Zerg won't scout any expo by 7', won't he be a tad.. suspicious ? I mean the whole point of the build is to hide your gates and prepare for a strong push, but not expoing is completely giving it away.. he'll just drop a ton of spine crawlers and it's gg..
This, in a sentry expand the nexus goes down at 5:30-6:30. If there's no nexus at 6:45, he's suspicious. If there's no nexus at 7:00 and you've revealed more than 3 sentries, there's no other build you could be doing than this one. At least hide some of your sentries to make him expect VR/DT and waste money on spores.
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I blind counter this in pvz with +1 speedlings, that I try to kill off a nexus with. Have met this a few times, and I kill the units as they move out normally and thereafter win the game.
But!
It's very strong if you go for a econ game (3 gate expand done properly can hold a pressure build, so if you chose not to pressure, this is almost insta win).
It's still a fast, efficient way to win most of your games, without putting too much effort into it.
Also, I am just mid masters. I am sure what I beat against other mid master players, a superior player might turn into a loss with superior micro.
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I've been doing this for a long time (1675 masters P), you have to move down your ramp aggressively and deny scouting at your natural. I think this works well as a follow up to a hatch block with a pylon or a pylon and cyber core.
Another way to make it interesting is to hide units other than your first zealot and 2 sentries. Only show your first 3 units. That way he will start thinking stargate or dt.
The only problem is if there's no Nexus by 7:00 the zerg can throw down spines and be way far ahead. You have to keep him in the dark.
Perhaps it's just my level, but I win with similar builds a lot.
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On July 18 2011 07:20 crojar wrote:
I've been doing this for a long time (1675 masters P), you have to move down your ramp aggressively and deny scouting at your natural. I think this works well as a follow up to a hatch block with a pylon or a pylon and cyber core.
Another way to make it interesting is to hide units other than your first zealot and 2 sentries. Only show your first 3 units. That way he will start thinking stargate or dt.
The only problem is if there's no Nexus by 7:00 the zerg can throw down spines and be way far ahead. You have to keep him in the dark.
Perhaps it's just my level, but I win with similar builds a lot.
The reason I do the +1 speedling attack to deny / kill expansion is that so many protoss goes DT's or Stargate tech at the moment.
And so you need the evo chamber.
If you use the first 100 gas on atk upgrade, the 2nd on speed, they finish roughly at the same time, and in good time to pressure an expo, or hold most ground based all ins - and speedlings don't require as much econ support as roaches.
But it's a weak zerg opening against 1 gate expand that holds, which leaves you far behind.
Either way, if there's no expo down at 6:40 at the very latest, you pretty much know it's an all inish build that's coming your way, so blindly getting a spore in each base, a spine if you can afford it, and producing units, is just a good move. Even a third queen.
It's not that hard to hold if you have units out in time to attack when he leaves his base. Because he has to keep spending energy, and will lose sentries, all the way down.
It's extremely hard to hold if you have to hold it at your base in just one fight.
It's extremely hard (impossible) to hold if you don't build units, and assume it's an expo, and go for the econ lead / late game.
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On July 18 2011 06:54 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 06:45 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg. So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense? what doesn't make sense about that? At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion. This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that. I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you. ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it? The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims? Your claims: 1. 95% win rate in lower leagues 2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time 3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter 4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this 5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down. What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down. Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build. + Show Spoiler +Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0 You're right about one thing and thats about it., I've never faced this build, because im a protoss player. I've actually used this build many times at the highest level (many grandmaster players) and I have concluded that- 1. If scouted correctly, it can be defended by lots of spine crawlers. 2. There are other ways to scout besides getting an over-lord in, example, not seeing an expansion at 6 minutes and seeing lots of sentry makes no sense for a build, so the only option would be 5gate. 3. Game sense is much higher at the top levels, just look at nestea vs inca gsl finals, how did nestea know inca was going dt's? Did he ever get an overlord in? nope hes just a great player with good game sense. 4. Did I ever say the build wasn't viable? in any of my posts? no i did not. Its completely viable. I just said that I stopped using builds where I rely on my opponents to make mistakes/play bad, because I want to get better at the game and not do cheesy all ins. 5. You probably will get a 95% win rate with this in lower leagues because its a very easy build to pull off and very hard to defend, unless you are a high level zerg. obviously im making up the number but its a estimation, would you like me to get out statistics or some shit? My point was- its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win.
1) Anything scouted correctly can be defended properly. Redundant statement is redundant.
2) Hidden expo? Expo at 7? He only shows 1 sentry 1 zealot? 1 Base blink stalker sentry all-in? Yeah, 5 gate is the only possibility.
3) How did he know? Cause he went dts in the last 3 games. How will you know if randomladdermanx will go dts? You won't - unless you've played him before.
4) Knowing when to all-in is part of getting better.
5) No one gives a shit about your estimation, either get some real statistics or shut the fuck up.
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On July 18 2011 07:28 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 06:54 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 06:45 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg. So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense? what doesn't make sense about that? At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion. This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that. I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you. ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it? The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims? Your claims: 1. 95% win rate in lower leagues 2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time 3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter 4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this 5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down. What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down. Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build. + Show Spoiler +Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0 You're right about one thing and thats about it., I've never faced this build, because im a protoss player. I've actually used this build many times at the highest level (many grandmaster players) and I have concluded that- 1. If scouted correctly, it can be defended by lots of spine crawlers. 2. There are other ways to scout besides getting an over-lord in, example, not seeing an expansion at 6 minutes and seeing lots of sentry makes no sense for a build, so the only option would be 5gate. 3. Game sense is much higher at the top levels, just look at nestea vs inca gsl finals, how did nestea know inca was going dt's? Did he ever get an overlord in? nope hes just a great player with good game sense. 4. Did I ever say the build wasn't viable? in any of my posts? no i did not. Its completely viable. I just said that I stopped using builds where I rely on my opponents to make mistakes/play bad, because I want to get better at the game and not do cheesy all ins. 5. You probably will get a 95% win rate with this in lower leagues because its a very easy build to pull off and very hard to defend, unless you are a high level zerg. obviously im making up the number but its a estimation, would you like me to get out statistics or some shit? My point was- its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win. 1) Anything scouted correctly can be defended properly. Redundant statement is redundant. 2) Hidden expo? Expo at 7? He only shows 1 sentry 1 zealot? 1 Base blink stalker sentry all-in? Yeah, 5 gate is the only possibility. 3) How did he know? Cause he went dts in the last 3 games. How will you know if randomladdermanx will go dts? You won't - unless you've played him before. 4) Knowing when to all-in is part of getting better. 5) No one gives a shit about your estimation, either get some real statistics or shut the fuck up.
ok buddy, calm down apparently you take the strategy forums very seriously.
have fun 5gating all your games, ill stick to learning the game correctly. cya
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United Arab Emirates137 Posts
Genius has done this in GSL a couple of times this season too, but he does it on Tal Darim and vs Terran. Can't remember him losing with it.
Hallucination would be really interesting: couple of void rays hallucinated might draw fire away and more importantly wouldn't get in the way - Colossus would give you vision of high ground too.
Perhaps against Zerg, building the nexus and then deleting it would go even further to fooling them.
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kiwikaki beat me with this on the euro ladder
i punched the wall afterwards.
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On July 18 2011 08:06 Let it Raine wrote:
kiwikaki beat me with this on the euro ladder
i punched the wall afterwards.
Did you break the wall?
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I prefer to build a nexus at the similar 3 gate sentry expand time, but as my nexus is halfway I build 2 more gateways and stop all probe production. Warp in only units and attack around 1-2 minutes later than this build and it still works very well.
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this is just 5 warpgate allin. you didnt show a replay but if i had to guess the only reason he had just sentry zlot is because you probobly only made lings. also i dont know why you said this is for "rush" maps, im pretty sure protoss use proxy pylons so that doesnt matter.
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In the game he used it against me, I was going for a delayed 3hatch roach/ling push. He did a probe scout and saw no more lings all game and still did it to me, I think he does it in a lot of PvZ judging by his match history.
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On July 18 2011 09:11 Minkus wrote:
this is just 5 warpgate allin. you didnt show a replay but if i had to guess the only reason he had just sentry zlot is because you probobly only made lings. also i dont know why you said this is for "rush" maps, im pretty sure protoss use proxy pylons so that doesnt matter.
it REALLY makes a difference. ever seen someone do a warpgate all in cross positions tal darim? of course not.
Ever seen a zerg hold warp gate all in on close positions meta? probably not.
Its about reaction time. the units have to walk to the zerg base, in which time the zerg has to prepare for the push. big map = more time, small map = less time
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I kept reading the build in the OP over and over trying to see if I missed a robo+warpprism or blink or something... how does 5gate merit a thread? This build has been around since the beta. A pylon at the bottom of a ramp does not a new build make...
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No offence, but this isn't that different from the 4-gate MC style nexus cancel or other allins which rely on looking like a sentry expand. It works greatly as most of the times the player is obviously sentry expanding, but still, the overlord scout should reveal this on maps where he can float overlord, and on the maps which are too big, he has plenty of reaction time.
It's fun to do once in a while, but not really that new or exciting.
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As helpful as it is for you to provide a 3 line description which each step reminding us of how we need to remember to put probes on gas, it would be much more helpful if you would upload a few replays. Everyone seems so caught up in this build that they haven't seem to notice that this is just you ripping some build from kiwikaki (which there is nothing wrong with I'll add) and then failing to upload replays yet remembering to advertise your chat channel, YouTube acount and website. Is this build so innovate and great that you couldn't post this before you had one measly replay? Seems like you just made this thread to promote yourself.
Please upload those replays.
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Wow. Sorry, I was excited to put the build up because I played KiWi and thought this was an exploitative build that people would enjoy to practice immediately. I mentioned in the original post that I would not have time to upload a replay or video until probably tomorrow but I thought I'd get the idea out there. People have been messaging me online saying they use the build and it works. I appreciate the anticipation though :D and a lot of the comments have been really constructive and helpful. Keep those creative juices flowing, zergs will start to fear this on the ladder 
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I'll be sure to try this! Thanks :D
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Tang asked for a zerg to play against him. He made me look like an idiot with this build 
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This build is indeed ruthless. I used to use it exclusively on Scrap Station PvZ before I finally vetoed it, and I still turn to it sometimes. I honestly win at least 80% of the time when I execute this build vs a 'standard' Zerg who isn't already planning an all-in or early aggression.
It hits at an awkward timing and hits extremely hard. It is completely viable at all levels, as it takes quite a few extra Spines to be able to hold it (an investment most Zergs won't make vs a [visual] 3gate expo).
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5 gate zealot/sentry has been around for ages. Not sure if you think it's a new build but it sounds like it from the OP.
here's a replay from way back in September showing this exact strategy.
It's a good fake build and works pretty well on the ladder since most protoss do 3 gate sentry expand and this hits around the same time as protoss would normally expand with a sentry expand build.
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Canada13386 Posts
I think unless I read wrong you failed to list the units you make? I've seen 4 and 5 gates from huk building zealot sentry only and having constant probe production and a follow up nexus.
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Zealot/sentry only (Warp in sentries first whenever possible)
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Yeah ive tried similar build and sometimes it really can get the zerg caught off guard; worth trying
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probably done in the same vein as a 3gate sentry expand that saves on minerals by only warping sentries, no wonder can afford a 5gate, that normally would not gonna have to figure how to do this stuff with terran.
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My co-caster is rending it tonight - He said there were some audio issues but as far as I know he's uploading it tonight or in morning.
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this gets blind countered by roach/ling and players who love to drop more than 2 spines. i've lost so many games trying this against zergs who were planning on being aggressive. the only times this build really works well is when the zerg tries for a greedy long macro game
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On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this?
Hm. On one hand, I would not dismiss the power of a straight-up aggression build - so I do understand that showing that Kiwikaki does it with success might be a good thing.
On the other, I need to point out that this build *seems* to derive part of its strength from it being mistaken for a 3-gate expand. Many of those wins might derive from the fact that Kiwikaki's opponent are actually not familiar with the build - in other words, from the cheese factor (and yes, it's perfectly possible to combine high skill with a surprise strike to win a large number of games).
The problem is... how would this perform if this became one of the 'standard' possibilities?
Secondary question: should this build become widespread enough, what sort of different behaviours would it force from Z? (an example of what I mean: the threat of an early pool forces P to place their buildings in certain ways and scout at a certain time, even against people who do not actually end up rushing)
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Q: What do you do if he just throws down ... say spines and goes for ether mutas or infestor ?
On July 19 2011 23:53 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? Hm. On one hand, I would not dismiss the power of a straight-up aggression build - so I do understand that showing that Kiwikaki does it with success might be a good thing. On the other, I need to point out that this build *seems* to derive part of its strength from it being mistaken for a 3-gate expand. Many of those wins might derive from the fact that Kiwikaki's opponent are actually not familiar with the build - in other words, from the cheese factor (and yes, it's perfectly possible to combine high skill with a surprise strike to win a large number of games). The problem is... how would this perform if this became one of the 'standard' possibilities? Secondary question: should this build become widespread enough, what sort of different behaviours would it force from Z? (an example of what I mean: the threat of an early pool forces P to place their buildings in certain ways and scout at a certain time, even against people who do not actually end up rushing)
Actually i think the "soft" wall of toss does is for late pool, early pool is better defended if you have the pylon near your nexus.
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On July 20 2011 00:00 Aterons_toss wrote:
Actually i think the "soft" wall of toss does is for late pool, early pool is better defended if you have the pylon near your nexus.
Indeed, it's easier to defend with probes in that way. What I mean is that you (probably) cannot do things such as starting a low-ground walloff with a gateway to begin securing your natural. Or, changing example, that the threat of a 2-rax forces Z to scout at 9 against T (or at least heavily suggests it).
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On July 18 2011 05:08 rale wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 04:47 TangSC wrote:
Listen I don't want to get in arguments or anything. This is a build kiwi uses, that alone makes it a viable option. My goal is to provide an aggressive opener for toss to use on new maps, if you don't want to use it that's fine, but try to avoid the negativity as I'm sure a lot of people will learn to win with this build. It's certainly a viable build that can win games, but against random people on the ladder, it's just a coinflip. If the zerg made units, you lose. If not, you win. You're completely all-in, and you have no way to scout to know if it's going to work or not. That said, it's something you can use to good effect in a tournament against a zerg player you know doesn't usually make units early.
Something you really need to be aware of when you make posts like this.. it's not a coin flip at all if you have good FF micro.
Force Fields are actually really good against Zerglings and Roaches. In addition to this, Zealots destroy Zerglings and Roaches without micro near equal army sizes. The army synergy is in the fact that you can trap your opponent's army and protect your Sentries from the Zerglings. Zealots are really good. :<
In other words, synergistic army, even for a one base all-in, is ridiculously powerful.
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wow another creative protoss strategy. why go for a 4gate all in when you can do a 5gate all in!
User was warned for this post
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good cheese build, but if anything i want to work on my expansion builds.
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CapnAmerica makes a good point - if nothing else, it's an excellent way to practice forcefield micro/warp in mechanics/perfecting a build order + execution
You can practice different hotkey setups:
Kiwi just used one control group with manual zealot micro against me but you could experiment with having your sentries on control 2, tabbing, having zealots alone in a separate control group, etc.
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Oh great, I was so happy the metagame had shifted away from 4/5 gate agression ...
Since it is pure zealot/sentry it feels like pure roach with good creep spread (and good avoidance of FFs) is probably the ideal answer.
As for scouting, its gonna be hard to deny an overlord from scouting everything with just a sentry (as long as the OV timing's good). Problem is on most big maps actually getting an overlord there take a long time.
Overall the build may not be THAT strong, but it is made stronger by the fact that it abuses the 3-gate-sentry-expand metagame. Good chance of the Zerg overmaking drones.
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Did he use guardian shield too or only forcefields?
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Apologies guys - we made a youtube vid but had some recording issues and will have to re-cast it. I believe he used shield too, Draco.
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Ever check Kiwikaki's match history? This is the exact build he does in every ladder PvZ. No matter how high your MMR is, at least on the NA ladder you will never reach a point where zerg players are consistently defending this.
This is important and should be included in the opening post to prove a point.
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spines are good vs this lol
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This build is really good and I'm not even that great with sentries. I will use this build every time against Zerg now. Also Tang is a really awesome guy.
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From testing I find this is a really good build assuming the zerg is going an econ build. It's near impossible to stop even if there are 2-3 spines up already.
I find however the meta (at least at high diamond/low masters) so many zergs are inclined to scout what is seen as 3 gate expo and plan on doing a losira roach ling timing attack. I've lost plenty of games where the zerg has crushed this and by the time u see it (especially when they are also hiding their intention to do this) your zealots and sentries are not getting away.
Maybe once I hit a level when zergs dont respond to an expansion by doing heavy roach ling agression (I wont call it an all in) it may become more useful on ladder.
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White-ra was doing stuff like this around 6-9 months ago against zergs, scary but defendable but most zergs bring ovi through the back and scout the front. i reccoment putting some by nexus and deny scouting, or proxy. But i seem to be able to scout gateways decently.
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old build, is just a 5 gate zealot sentry allin. people have been doing this for ages. i say its an allin cause you rely a lot on tricking your opponent into thinking you are doing a fast expand.
it is similar to ogsmc's nexus cancel 4 gate, except making 5 GATES on 1 base which imo is allinish.
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I'm not sure how top zergs in NA can have problem stopping this. If you don't see nexus at 6:00min mark as zerg player you start making units. Also got no clue how a zerg will let a pylon be nearby his base. Even diamond zerg in EU scouts for those. When a Protoss player moves out I would had 50 zerglings surroundings hes army. This build would never work against a decent zerg player like myself.
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unless they make nexus and cancel.
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Thanks for a guide on a five gate all-in korean nexus canceling is far and away better trumpstyle explains exactly why this build is really not that good.
sounds to me like you got metagamed bro...
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Keep talkin', guys. I assure you it's not as easy to defend as you're making it sound but when you run into Kiwi on the ladder and you beat his zealot/sentry push, I'd like to see the replay ^^
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lower leagues if you can execute a 4 gate well you can win 95% of the time. my friend who plays terran got a hold of an account at gold (he is masters) only 4 gated and got to a record of 60-4. All short games.
this build seems like it has potential but it is nothing to different. The only thing is that you have 5 gates instead of 4 if you lose. I like the idea because you maybe be better prepared to defend a counter after the initial rush. But as for an expo and mid game transition... money seems a little tight unless you do big damage to your opponent. (That is kind of what an all-in is...)
I'd like to ask kiwikaki what he thinks of this build!
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On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely.
You will win 99% if you can do it perfectly.
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Thanks for post Tang, something new to try and keep zerg from rushing to infestors.
For everyone saying this strat is old old old old, if you read the OP his point is this may be more effective come the new maps, which makes the strat relevant again.
For everyone saying this is big-time fail can we get some replays of you either a) beating this, or b) losing with it.... instead of just theorycraft.
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On July 20 2011 21:01 TangSC wrote:
Keep talkin', guys. I assure you it's not as easy to defend as you're making it sound but when you run into Kiwi on the ladder and you beat his zealot/sentry push, I'd like to see the replay ^^
Yes, but you are talking about yourself, onlyma moderately really good player (I hope that makes sense) going against a pro who is using what is apparently a 5-Gate all-in.
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Thanks for the video, I was hoping this build might replace my own sentry fake expand, 4 gate all-in. But I dont think it's going to because this push is SOooooOooO late (moving out around 6:40, a good zerg will know something is up, because a normal 3 gate FE goes down at 5:50. I have had my own sentry 4 gate all in fail multiple times because a good zerg will know whats up when he doesnt see an expo by 6:10ish at the LATEST.
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On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely.
Kiwi was rank 1 in gm and this build won for him many time. I'm not sure what you mean by will win 95% in the lower leagues. This actually won't win in the lower leagues. This build relies on the fact that they will scout a 3 gate expand. A low level player doesn't correctly react to what he scouts and just follows a basic build which totally negates the fact that you are faking a 3 gate expo. In the higher leagues when the zerg scouts he sees a 3 gate expo and doesn't get the correct defenses for 5 gates.
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A 5gate allin. Not a Kiwikaki build. Just a hidden 5gate push
Though it's good it's not something super new
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On July 21 2011 13:55 jib117 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. Kiwi was rank 1 in gm and this build won for him many time. I'm not sure what you mean by will win 95% in the lower leagues. This actually won't win in the lower leagues. This build relies on the fact that they will scout a 3 gate expand. A low level player doesn't correctly react to what he scouts and just follows a basic build which totally negates the fact that you are faking a 3 gate expo. In the higher leagues when the zerg scouts he sees a 3 gate expo and doesn't get the correct defenses for 5 gates.
Its better in the lower leagues as it's easier to pull off then to hold. If you get that FF he can only get reinforcements from 1 hatch meaning that he's dead. You need to have roaches and some lings up when he's about to enter your base so you can snipe off the sentries.
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sooo
you dont have a drone to scout in the base you can micro it like forever against sentry
you dont have ling to poke at his ramp
you dont have lings at the xel naga towers
you dont even try to scout with ove
and you expect to take this build serious
rly?
and im not saying the build isn't good or something im just saying that u dont scout at all and its funny,.
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On July 22 2011 00:53 Joseph123 wrote:
sooo
you dont have a drone to scout in the base you can micro it like forever against sentry
you dont have ling to poke at his ramp
you dont have lings at the xel naga towers
you dont even try to scout with ove
and you expect to take this build serious
rly?
and im not saying the build isn't good or something im just saying that u dont scout at all and its funny,.
I understand Tang's unease at playing kiwikaki, and his fairly low scouting because of it; however, Tang, you really did not scout at all against him.. as in.. AT ALL.
You did not know his second gas timing, did not poke up his ramp with zerglings, did not sac an overlord, did not check or delay the expo, did not secure xel'nagas, and literally did not scout him until the proxy pylon was on your creep.
Now, perhaps maybe the psychological effect of playing KiWi lost you some scouting, but the absolute ESSENTIALS given to zerg (100% assured xel'naga control after 4 zerglings are out), extremely high guarantee of basic unit composition scouting with zergling pokes, and the ability to check for an expansion, and SEE the push coming ~30 seconds before it hits were things you did not do at all.
Maybe you would've died anyway even if you scouted the push coming 30 seconds before, but at least you would have another round of units on the way and 1/2 spine crawlers, and that would help you hold a lot better.
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Haha believe me I know, there's a lot of things I could have done differently but it doesn't mean the build Kiwi used is any less effective/strong. I was going for an all-in, heavy 3hatch roach/ling bust - a build that requires a lot of drones in the early stages but is very difficult to hold 2bases. It's something I've used to great effect on backwater gulch because people often go 3gate expand into stargate and like I said I really wasn't expecting this type of push. The focus should be more on his build, though, as I'm certain it'll be an asset for close-spawn or rush maps.
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On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this?
A design flaw in zerg scouting.
I stand by, this build has no intrinsic special trait to it. It comes down to scouting it.
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On July 22 2011 09:45 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? A design flaw in zerg scouting. I stand by, this build has no intrinsic special trait to it. It comes down to scouting it.
Like 4 gate...
Like roach allin...
like marine banshee tank allin...
Like every single build in starcraft, when I come to think of it, right?
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Ehm... no. Not every single build in SC2 translates to a direct loss if scouted.
(not that the proposed one necessarily does so, but I think that this was the point that Probe1 was trying to make)
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I don't think people understands exactly how hard this is to scout as a zerg. On a lot of maps you cannot get an overlord in place to sacrifice, and you cant really get past the wall in either. The only way of scouting it is if you suicide your lings to see if there is an expansion up, which is not very good if it is a 3 gate expand. It's of course not too strong if scouted, but the strength of the build is that it is very hard to scout, so I definitely think it's a viable build
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this isn't new, nor did he invent it, considering its not even that hard to invent, and i bet a lot of people just throw down 5 gates and attack after +20 seconds warpgate. Even me occasionally.
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Dense people will be dense.
The thread does not say new build, it says PvZ build for new maps. It is a solid guide that reiterates a viable strat and how it might be benficial with the impending changes.
All of the; "it's been done before" and "it's scoutable" replies are about as useful as the "I'm at work right now but...." posts.
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I've been doing this on a practice account in PvT and PvT. I went 121/48 (But the MMR was silver at the start)
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its a 5 gate that gets shut down by scouting. No zerg should assume that a protoss is going to expand just because he has a lot of sentries ._.
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this seems like an awesome build
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Hey Tang,
Can you please upload the replay from this game you casted, because stealing the BO for analysis from a video on youtube isn't exactly accurate (Chronoboosts go where, Supply list etc...)
Thank You
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I think a big tell, especially for high level zergs is the late nexus. I am no pro, but I always know something is up with a protoss if they don't expand by six minutes, so by seven minutes I would be considering the options. I am pretty sure a really good player like sheth or sen who are really good at counting sentries would be able to figure this out. Certainly a guy like nestea.
Some simple logic can be used here... if protoss has the maximum number of sentries possible but no nexus... then they aren't saving gas for something like DTs and they are saving minerals for... well probably gateways. Simpler said then done ofc. My point being is that it is scoutable in that sense. The build could be stronger if the protoss hides some of its units maybe.
I won't claim to know better then kiwikaki, but I think this build has a skill cap somewhere around progamer, and I imagine as the game matures and zergs on the ladder all around start to get better the competitiveness of rushes like this will eventually start to diminish.
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Germany392 Posts
On July 25 2011 13:14 Universum wrote:
Hey Tang,
Can you please upload the replay from this game you casted, because stealing the BO for analysis from a video on youtube isn't exactly accurate (Chronoboosts go where, Supply list etc...)
Thank You
He can't, because he wants you to subscribe to his channel Similar to big tournaments that don't want to give out replays because they rely on you seeing their VoDs for Ads or even buy a season ticket.
Regarding the build: this game isn't that representive because you actually haven't scouted a thing - if you had seen him move out with that, then you would have been able to put up enough spines and roaches.
This wouldn't make him lose the game but it would prolong the game as he would be forced to pull back and expand - so you would enter the mid game on nearly even footing because you invested a lot in defense and he invested a lot in his attack force, the concept is similar to Losiras Roach/Ling-Attack that can end the game against an enemy that misses whats going on (or failmicros) but it can also transition nicely into a regular game.
I was actually using this build for 10 or so games against Zergs ranging from High Masters Guys to Dimaga (Who expected it btw as soon as I wasn't there with my nexus at ~06:30 and putted up crawlers immediatly - there won't be air or dts coming with that much gas tied up in the sentry count so he can prepare for an ground attack).
Its a good build but you need to know when to stop and just macro up ^^
I'm sticking with Forge-FE on Maps that allow it, 3Gate-Sentry-Expand on Maps that don't allow it and 3Gate-Stargate-Expand on close position - theres no use for that build in my roster but if you feel agressive and want to practice your Force Fields than this build is definitely a good idea.
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On July 18 2011 03:37 Shifft wrote:
I'm pretty sure I remember Whitera doing this build in beta, especially on Shakuras.
Shakuras in the beta? ;-)
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While I don't think I could beat kiwikaki either, a couple things bother me here in this game:
1) Lack of lings. I never see any lings die in this game, which to me denotes you didn't make any. Maybe this is wrong, but since I can't see a replay and only kiwi's perspective of a youtube vid, then I can't say for sure. It looks like you have no lings at either tower and no lings outside his base for the duration of the game.
2) Overlord scouting I think wouldn't really reveal much. It looks to me at least that a smart base layout for this build would "hide" 2 gates on either side of the base, so that an OL sac will leave feeling satisfied, given the sentry count + 2gates. So while I don't see you sac an OL, I don't think it changes this build or reaction.
3) 3-gate expand timing if I'm not mistaken should be around 6:15-6:30. He doesn't clear his natural until ~6:40, and there's no probe below his ramp, which means he wouldn't drop his nexus until ~6:50 minimum, very late for 3-gate sentry expand. (On a minor note, it's highly clever of him to put 2 sentry warp in at the bottom of ramp and 2 sentry warp in at the top so that even if yo uscout his ramp you can't see that he warped in 4 sentries at once, little very clever tactic by kiwi)
4) I think taking the third before he takes his natural is a very questionable move. By 7 minutes you know this is coming because your natural OL should see no expo, and you can see his force (which is too large for 3gates) is revealed on the bottom tower. This gives you exactly 45 seconds to produce AND get below your ramp every unit you hope to use to defend this push.
5) I barely played any 1v1 this season but when I played in season 1, the standard defense for zerg against a 3-gate sentry push is double spine and some speedlings, with MAYBE a few roaches. Because roaches are easily FF'd away, it's better to use lings to surround from behind once in range of spines. Is there a reason you chose pure roach to defend this?
In an ideal situation, I see a zerg doing the following things differently, and I'm not sure how it might change the outcome:
1) OL sac. This SHOULDN'T reveal anything due to how he has his gates split, since they are on opposite sides of the base. Still, I'd expect to see this even though it doesn't change anything
2) No 3rd until he takes his natural. If he then cancels, you can also cancel. Going +2 bases against a Protoss who has yet to expand is overly greedy. Sheth has an awesome article on TL about how far ahead you can be economically and survive an all-in at time X in the game. (Sorry I don't have a link available.)
3) Ling outside his ramp, ling hiding behind his natural, lings at both towers. For 4 lings, you make it difficult for him to completely hide what he's doing. While you don't see the 5 gates, and the sentry count, while high, is very difficult to be suspicious of... you CAN clearly see the lack of pylon, natural probe or very late nexus. All 3 of these should tell you to be careful.
4) 2 spine crawlers. I've always seen the "standard" hold of 3-gate sentry expand push to be double spine and some speedlings. It only takes 3 shots + 1 tap to kill a sentry. You can micro the spines to attack only the sentries. In this case I'd drop 2 additional spines for a total of 4, and I'd start those 2 spines at 7 minutes when there's no natural + this large force revealed at the xel naga. If you "overreact" it only costs you 50-75 minerals between cancels and lost mining time.
This is clearly a strong build built on deception, but I don't feel like it's overly powerful. Kiwikaki's execution is flawless, and I'm sure he's having great success with this on ladder because of the build's surprise and its quality of execution. That said, there are still tell-tale signs that you can react to in time, and while I can't comment with specific regard to other matches he's done this to, I feel like there's a good chance most players are lazily reacting to what looks like a 3-gate sentry expand to the untrained eye, and then due to greed lack the necessary defense. You hint at this in your video, and I think this is probably the other reason this build is working so well for him.
Also I PM'd you with some personal comments not germane to the thread.
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I made a lot of cuts to do a 3hatch push, like I said. Besides, this isn't a zerg tutorial.
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Just wanted to thank the OP for this thread. I'm silver, but have been playing all gold players since the ladder was locked (hoping to get promoted in season 3) and PvZ has been my weakest matchup. I prefer aggressive builds and most of the PvZ builds I find are either blatantly passive, or passive and feign aggression. This one feigns passivity and provides aggression. While I can't speak for the masters level and up (although I plan to try this in my Geforce ProAm matches against some master zergs this week) yet I can confidently state against gold players that are even aggressive with roaches/lings, I'm winning (unless I screw up my FF's which is hard to do with this many sentries).
I've been able to deny scouting so far and my biggest problem with the original 3gate sentry expand was that I never had enough unit producing structures when the zerg hit my expansion to defend. I tried MC's FFE into Stargate, but quite frankly my micro isn't good enough with phoenix to pull it off more than 50% of the time. With this build, I can warp in 5 zealots if I see a push coming and easily defend it with proper FF's.
It's more all-in than I like my aggression to be, but once I can beef up my macro/micro skills to be able to handle an MC-style stargate build, this will still be a great build to keep in my PvZ arsenal.
Thanks again!
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On July 26 2011 04:55 TangSC wrote:
I made a lot of cuts to do a 3hatch push, like I said. Besides, this isn't a zerg tutorial.
Hey Tang, are you going to ignore these posts?
On July 25 2011 13:14 Universum wrote:
Hey Tang,
Can you please upload the replay from this game you casted, because stealing the BO for analysis from a video on youtube isn't exactly accurate (Chronoboosts go where, Supply list etc...)
Thank You
On July 25 2011 18:00 Felo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 13:14 Universum wrote:
Hey Tang,
Can you please upload the replay from this game you casted, because stealing the BO for analysis from a video on youtube isn't exactly accurate (Chronoboosts go where, Supply list etc...)
Thank You He can't, because he wants you to subscribe to his channel Similar to big tournaments that don't want to give out replays because they rely on you seeing their VoDs for Ads or even buy a season ticket.
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this isnt a Kiwikaki built, i saw this at IEM to STsquirtle, in the match vs MooN,... gimme a break,
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Well KiWi uses it frequently with great success so it's still worth learning.
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It seems to me that your scouting was just far too infrequent. no expo at 6:30 should have been nonstop unit production like you said; as well as spines. Very well timed push from Kiwi though. Once a toss has that many units and unlimited forcefielding of the ramp the game is over I personally have not come across this build before, but I'll certainly keep the possibility of it in the back of my mind when I scout a 3 gate expo.
EDIT:
Haha I say I've never seen it before and the first game I play after reading this post someone does this exact build to me. I managed to get rid of the proxies and the probe early enough however. Thank god for that.
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Yeah defending this as zerg really comes down to:
1) Scouting: the expansion between the 6:15-6:45 mark, holding the xel-naga towers, using a few zerglings to scour every nook and cranny potentially hiding a pylon.
2) Responding: As soon as somethings up at 6:30, a big round of roaches and 2-3 spines should be your first goal. I'm debating whether making lings would be worth it to defend; considering the amount of zealot/sentry, spines and roaches may be best. Maybe reinforcing with lings once the toss army is at your natural, since they build faster.
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This will straight out auto lose to a 9pool. Which, lets be honest, is not unusual on small rush maps. You can barely squeeze out a zealot with a 12 gate, I don't see how you're suppose to get one out with a 14 gate...
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On July 28 2011 07:17 Excludos wrote:
This will straight out auto lose to a 9pool. Which, lets be honest, is not unusual on small rush maps. You can barely squeeze out a zealot with a 12 gate, I don't see how you're suppose to get one out with a 14 gate...
I have never encountered a 9-pool when I went 14-gw, so I'm curious about this. I 9-scout with this build. On a map with a short rush distance, will my scout see the early pool in time to react properly? I'm not even sure what the correct reaction would be with a 14-gw timing.
I don't know that the 14-gw is core to the idea of this build.
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This is not a new build but cool for someone to detail it I guess. I practised against rank 1 Master Protoss doing a similar dumb all in before I race switched from zerg and it is sort of simple to defend with either a lot of spines and lings or fast +1 mass lings (in the same way that this dumb all in will kill virtually any other build afaik). I am no longer sure on 1 base hydra or infestor timings but fairly sure that would beat this too, but yeah not as if anyone really does that much.
Simple and effective ladder build I suppose, I seriously doubt this is a build Kiwi or any other protoss would use in a tournament against a pro zerg
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On July 28 2011 07:35 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 07:17 Excludos wrote:
This will straight out auto lose to a 9pool. Which, lets be honest, is not unusual on small rush maps. You can barely squeeze out a zealot with a 12 gate, I don't see how you're suppose to get one out with a 14 gate... I have never encountered a 9-pool when I went 14-gw, so I'm curious about this. I 9-scout with this build. On a map with a short rush distance, will my scout see the early pool in time to react properly? I'm not even sure what the correct reaction would be with a 14-gw timing. I don't know that the 14-gw is core to the idea of this build.
At least its possible to stop a 6pool if you scout him early enough. But thats easier than a 9pool because there is no follow up, you just have to hold on.
But yeah, if anyone have managed to stop a 9pool with this build on a 4player map, then please educate me. I'd love to know how you do it without losing at least some probes, and a gateway/forge. (That combined with cutting probes, will usually put you too far behind to be able to get back into the game)
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On July 28 2011 07:17 Excludos wrote:
This will straight out auto lose to a 9pool. Which, lets be honest, is not unusual on small rush maps. You can barely squeeze out a zealot with a 12 gate, I don't see how you're suppose to get one out with a 14 gate...
I guess it would if you're bad
User was warned for this post
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On July 28 2011 10:27 Garth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 07:17 Excludos wrote:
This will straight out auto lose to a 9pool. Which, lets be honest, is not unusual on small rush maps. You can barely squeeze out a zealot with a 12 gate, I don't see how you're suppose to get one out with a 14 gate... I guess it would if you're bad
On July 28 2011 08:30 Excludos wrote:
If anyone have managed to stop a 9pool with this build on a 4player map, then please educate me. I'd love to know how you do it without losing at least some probes, and a gateway/forge. (That combined with cutting probes, will usually put you too far behind to be able to get back into the game)
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Russian Federation63 Posts
The problem i seem to have with zealot / sentry mix is that i pretty much need to make physical contact to do any significant damage (unlike stalker / sentry). And once physical contact is made, zerglings are more than a match for zealots.
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On July 28 2011 08:30 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 07:35 galivet wrote:On July 28 2011 07:17 Excludos wrote:
This will straight out auto lose to a 9pool. Which, lets be honest, is not unusual on small rush maps. You can barely squeeze out a zealot with a 12 gate, I don't see how you're suppose to get one out with a 14 gate... I have never encountered a 9-pool when I went 14-gw, so I'm curious about this. I 9-scout with this build. On a map with a short rush distance, will my scout see the early pool in time to react properly? I'm not even sure what the correct reaction would be with a 14-gw timing. I don't know that the 14-gw is core to the idea of this build. At least its possible to stop a 6pool if you scout him early enough. But thats easier than a 9pool because there is no follow up, you just have to hold on. But yeah, if anyone have managed to stop a 9pool with this build on a 4player map, then please educate me. I'd love to know how you do it without losing at least some probes, and a gateway/forge. (That combined with cutting probes, will usually put you too far behind to be able to get back into the game)
Wall with Pylon when the lings are below the ramp, and pull some probes to fight together with the Zealot when it pops and you cancel the Pylon. You shouldn't lose more than 1-2 probes even without micro unless the Z heavily commits, in which case you keep your front walled up.
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On July 28 2011 23:25 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 08:30 Excludos wrote:On July 28 2011 07:35 galivet wrote:On July 28 2011 07:17 Excludos wrote:
This will straight out auto lose to a 9pool. Which, lets be honest, is not unusual on small rush maps. You can barely squeeze out a zealot with a 12 gate, I don't see how you're suppose to get one out with a 14 gate... I have never encountered a 9-pool when I went 14-gw, so I'm curious about this. I 9-scout with this build. On a map with a short rush distance, will my scout see the early pool in time to react properly? I'm not even sure what the correct reaction would be with a 14-gw timing. I don't know that the 14-gw is core to the idea of this build. At least its possible to stop a 6pool if you scout him early enough. But thats easier than a 9pool because there is no follow up, you just have to hold on. But yeah, if anyone have managed to stop a 9pool with this build on a 4player map, then please educate me. I'd love to know how you do it without losing at least some probes, and a gateway/forge. (That combined with cutting probes, will usually put you too far behind to be able to get back into the game) Wall with Pylon when the lings are below the ramp, and pull some probes to fight together with the Zealot when it pops and you cancel the Pylon. You shouldn't lose more than 1-2 probes even without micro unless the Z heavily commits, in which case you keep your front walled up.
1 zealot + probes vs 12 zerglings before your first sentry pops out is more than "1-2 probe loss" unfortunately. The biggest problem is exactly this. You will have to wall of your front with a pylon because there is no way the zealot will get out in time. If you cancle it and wall with the zealot, he will pull back and attack the gateway + whatever else your walling with while he's steadily getting reinforcements. One of these buildings will fall before the sentry is out, and now you're in a lot of trouble with only 1 zealot, probes and maybe a sentry against 12+ lings.
Edit: I guess there is a lot of "ifs" "maybe" "could do" in there. If anyone have a replay, that would show more than a thousand words
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no offense but... im only like 1600 masters zerg last season and I can tell that no expansion by the 6:10 minute mark means protoss is doing something weird. You had no ling checking for his expo, no ling at watch tower, no spine crawlers. Wtf man? I thought u were good.
No expo by 6:10, and lots of sentry = throw down a lot of spines cuz hes not using gas anywhere else and if theres no nexus he is spending minerals on gateways.
I think it would be way scarier if he hid sentry.
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How does roach+ling all in not murder this?
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I think the Losira style push is a good way to deal with this but it's a LOT of sentries so it can still be an issue.
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as a silver toss.
this is fucking awesome. lolollolololololololol
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In response to xmikeyy, you're absolutely right - for lower level players in the bronze, silver, gold leagues, perfecting this type of build is going to the most relevant skills for improvement. People think to practice, you have to do a macro oriented, long-term focused build. This is a popular misconception, though, because a lot of players in these lower levels don't have the skills to macro 2, 3, 4 bases properly. You need to learn to perfectly execute one-base play before you can do 2, and this build is designed to improve your warp-in mechanics, building placement, chronoboosts, and unit control/sentry micro. Do not pass up the chance to improve your play by saying "Oh this is just a 1base build I can't learn anything from it", because these types of statements will only hold you back.
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What happens if the Zerg goes early infestor? Would this build still work or would it easily get countered? Keep up the great work Tang.
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I think this build would get there before infestors would be up, I'm not sure the earliest infestor timings but I think the best response is defensive spinecrawlers and roach/ling.
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I don`t believe the 14-gate is crucial for this build. If anyone feels bothered about it being unable to hold a 9-pool, than build the gate at a different timing. It shouldn`t matter too much.
I also think the reason Kiwi didn`t bother with the Nexus-cancel in that particular game is because there was no lings poking the low ground. The 5th gate is usually meant to compensate for the delay in production you get for saving money for the fake nexus. So I think he anticipated he would have to do it, but than ignored it on the fly based on thelack of scouting by the opponent
Again, this build isn`t new or fancy or complicated, the guide should be meant to give general pointers for it. But there is a risk of it being misinterpreted if people start assuming that is always needed to 14-gate or that is always correct to skip Nexus-cancel.
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Wow, this looks like a pretty scary build.
This is just a random question: how P able to support 5 gates on one base, though?! Whenever I even 4gate, I run out of resources very quickly, for obvious reasons ...is it because he is making only zealots and sentries instead of stalkers (for the main push)? Sort of a stupid question, lol.
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Great post Tang, and great sight
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Using Math and BO calculators you can construct an optimized agressive build at any arbitrary timing.
Since Z tend to play standard most of the time, its simple to find a timing where most of the Z have a peak of ongoing investments (without return yet there or worthless, e.g. spire/mutas, mass upgrades or right after he expanded and pumped 16 drones).
This will yield a good winrate on ladder even when executed blindly, as the Z will have to hit YOUR timing regarding defense.
So depending on metagame, a 4/5/6/7/8 gate build gets hyped until it gets too popular and zergs modify their builds to shift their point of weakness to another timing. If the Z chooses to play "safe" he'll likely will get outmacroed. So there are years to come with constant timing shifts in the metagame ;-).
For the Zerg this means: Better do not play too standard (especially regarding timings of investments), as it will raise the odds to die to a blind timing push.
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Okay, it's either me or this bulid gets absolutely blown up by Mass Roaches or mass roaches/lings.
I'm in silver, so there is a chance it is just me, but so far I'm 0-3 against zergs who have either gone mass roaches or lings/roaches.
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Okay, so can someone tell me these "rush maps" so I can thumbs them down so I will never have to face this? :3
I hate protoss already, and I'll end up smashing my computer if this ever happens to me.
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Obviously, this build is not something to use every single game. However, with a 3 gate expand, Zergs are generally free to drone up a lot with only a few scouting zerglings. If you throw this build into the mix every now and then, a Zerg player who's droning will be forced to play it safer and build more units, or die to this build on the off-chance that it's being used.
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For those wondering, depending on how you gas in your PvZ, to a standard 14pool/15hatch with fast 3rd, and 14gas/14pool into spanishiwa , this build hits as if it were a high-econ 4gate (build gates at 26supply), but with 5gates.
You can get roach ling, but definitely not mass roach, let alone burrow - unless you rush it so fast you have nothing to burrow
You WILL have burrow/tunneling if he places a nexus and goes for a nexus cancel style though
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Yeah you definitely can't go hydra, burrow, or infestor against this push - it just comes too early.
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On August 06 2011 11:59 imdahman wrote:
Okay, it's either me or this bulid gets absolutely blown up by Mass Roaches or mass roaches/lings.
I'm in silver, so there is a chance it is just me, but so far I'm 0-3 against zergs who have either gone mass roaches or lings/roaches.
In silver people always makes more units than they should without any scouting information.
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in all fairness alot of games i play vs zerg effectively turn into a massroachathon.
any half decent zerg will have roaches knocking on your door just under 6mins, there is no way to hold that off at all with just sentries and zealots.
you essentially have to scout to see if the zerg goes eco, but lets be honest unless your in GM no other zergs out there go eco when they can just get roaches and wipe the floor with protoss.
so this build may work for the 200 people in GM but for the rest of us its pretty useless.
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On August 07 2011 11:10 iamtheoneneo wrote:
in all fairness alot of games i play vs zerg effectively turn into a massroachathon.
any half decent zerg will have roaches knocking on your door just under 6mins, there is no way to hold that off at all with just sentries and zealots.
you essentially have to scout to see if the zerg goes eco, but lets be honest unless your in GM no other zergs out there go eco when they can just get roaches and wipe the floor with protoss.
so this build may work for the 200 people in GM but for the rest of us its pretty useless.
Impossible to hold roach with sentries/zealot??? FF your ramp bro. Roach all in is SO easy to scout and so easy to defend, I haven't really seen it since I was gold and bellow.
With this many units you'd own the roach all in and set yourself up for either a safe expand or counter push.
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On August 07 2011 11:10 iamtheoneneo wrote:
in all fairness alot of games i play vs zerg effectively turn into a massroachathon.
any half decent zerg will have roaches knocking on your door just under 6mins, there is no way to hold that off at all with just sentries and zealots.
you essentially have to scout to see if the zerg goes eco, but lets be honest unless your in GM no other zergs out there go eco when they can just get roaches and wipe the floor with protoss.
so this build may work for the 200 people in GM but for the rest of us its pretty useless.
no offense but you're just really really bad. However, yes, you are correct. It is less effective in the silver league because most zergs don't try to get as many drones as they can get away with in the early stages of the game. instead they like to mass roach because they are insecure, or because they see a zealot and think mass zealots will follow, or because they didn't see the low ground pylon and have no idea that the potential for an expansion is coming, or because they have no sense of timing in any game that they play. take your pick, all valid reasons.
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I've taken for granted that a protoss all in is coming if the expansion isn't up by 6:30 or atleast around that time. Given that my build has +1 speedlings by that time I should be safe if I build some spines.
I'd love to test it though.
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On August 07 2011 16:48 tuestresfat wrote:
no offense but you're just really really bad. However, yes, you are correct. It is less effective in the silver league because most zergs don't try to get as many drones as they can get away with in the early stages of the game. instead they like to mass roach because they are insecure, or because they see a zealot and think mass zealots will follow, or because they didn't see the low ground pylon and have no idea that the potential for an expansion is coming, or because they have no sense of timing in any game that they play. take your pick, all valid reasons.
no offense taken - if bad is master league then i accept being bad lol.
mass roach is pretty common in alot of the games i play, i hold it off thats my point and iv tried this strat a few times and it just isnt that viable against any half decent zerg.
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Lol.. I enjoy the guy above saying what's viable and what isn't when the build is being laid out by a GM protoss via one of the top (if not #1) North American protosses.
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I love this build, as a Z player that punishes 4-gates!
If i scout a 4-gate with my 9/supply drone scout, then i immediately go for a 12 pool, get the speed upgrade and pump lings. Move out with slow lings @ about 20, and then when you're right outside the door to his base speed will finish so reinforcements will be soon to follow.
20+ lings vs 1 - 3 zealots and a couple of sentries will break through easily.
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I've been doing this build every game pvz with moderate success.
Here's the deal: it counters spanishiwa build hard. They have no gas to do anything but speedlings, which your zealots chop up.
It gets hard countered by: fast roaches. The timing hits at about 7:30 to 8 min. By then a zerg can have 10-15 roaches ready up and you can't do squat because you have no stalkers. Any decent zerg won't get trapped by mass force fields.
ALSO, at the 6:30 mark before you start moving out, I've come across many zergs who come in and take out your 3 sentries and 1 zealot with mass lings before you hit the watch tower. If that happens, your push almost always fails automatically.
It also gets hard countered by mass speedling with 4+ spines. The spines do enough dps to keep you from taking down the hatch. I went against my friend and he droned hard to 50 drones and threw 5 spines and had speedlings. After he defended it, it was GG. My 27 probes cannot beat his 45 drones.
If you are in the mood, you can try this. But most high level zerg will scout your units coming and automatically throw down enough spines to stop you.
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On August 05 2011 11:44 TangSC wrote:
I think this build would get there before infestors would be up, I'm not sure the earliest infestor timings but I think the best response is defensive spinecrawlers and roach/ling.
Agreed, really cant see infestors being out for this.
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It's a good build yes.., but counterable, indeed more scouting u can sack 2 ovie's if u dont trust it... and I always have a ling behind his natural mineral line to check for exp, and like you said controle xelnaga towers, and 1 ling for his base to see if he is comming..that said I think it counterable..
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Great build, haven't lost a single game with it.
~1500p master season 2.
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On August 08 2011 06:19 iamtheoneneo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 16:48 tuestresfat wrote:
no offense but you're just really really bad. However, yes, you are correct. It is less effective in the silver league because most zergs don't try to get as many drones as they can get away with in the early stages of the game. instead they like to mass roach because they are insecure, or because they see a zealot and think mass zealots will follow, or because they didn't see the low ground pylon and have no idea that the potential for an expansion is coming, or because they have no sense of timing in any game that they play. take your pick, all valid reasons. no offense taken - if bad is master league then i accept being bad lol. mass roach is pretty common in alot of the games i play, i hold it off thats my point and iv tried this strat a few times and it just isnt that viable against any half decent zerg.
could you please link your profile? I find that very very hard to believe lol
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If zerg goes for really early roach/ling all-in, I think you can just pull back to your ramp and FF and be ahead moving into 2base with a very delayed nexus.
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Just because a build has been done in some variation for quite some time doesn't mean that given new maps to implement and play around with it can't be effective. Even without new maps, so-called "old" builds can come back with the slightest of details changed and become extremely effective for those willing to put in the time and effort to see what works.
I was having trouble with my PvZ and in spite of knowing full well about the build I just didn't think about implementing it. The OP gave me the inspiration to start playing around with and practicing the build and it was successful. Which leads to the question:
How many of you knee-jerk-response, devils advocate-playing Theorycrafters (who play P) actually TRIED the build before spouting off with relativist non-sense about why you think it won't work?
Again, the argument that this build has been around for a long time is completely invalid. Blue Flame Hellions have also been around since the Beta and yet are currently experiencing a massive resurgence. Why? Slight change in details. So people are handling X number of hellions...what if we up the number? Simple change, dramatic difference in outcomes.
Such is the nature of RTS
For those who actually take the time to examine the build: what has your experience been in playing with the build a little bit? For example, I've been hiding the other 2 gates around the map with varying degrees of success depending on the tenacity of the Z's ling scouts. Sometimes it definitely is best to hide the gates in your own base and deny ovies to the best of your ability.
I've been thinking about the necessity of the 5th gate and what can be done to facilitate your ability to truly utilize it. Really, off one base 5 gates should be pushing the boundaries of what can be sustained. What if, to compensate for this and to allow for all 5 gates to be used, you pull all 3 probes off one of your geysers? This would free up some minerals to allow for more zealots and possibly even a few stalkers?
I've also been thinking about the unit composition and the effectiveness/cost of throwing in a few more stalkers than Kiwi does. Anyone have any experience with this they'd like to share?
What's your thoughts on this Tang?
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On August 09 2011 10:05 ins(out)side wrote:
Just because a build has been done in some variation for quite some time doesn't mean that given new maps to implement and play around with it can't be effective. Even without new maps, so-called "old" builds can come back with the slightest of details changed and become extremely effective for those willing to put in the time and effort to see what works.
I was having trouble with my PvZ and in spite of knowing full well about the build I just didn't think about implementing it. The OP gave me the inspiration to start playing around with and practicing the build and it was successful. Which leads to the question:
How many of you knee-jerk-response, devils advocate-playing Theorycrafters (who play P) actually TRIED the build before spouting off with relativist non-sense about why you think it won't work?
Again, the argument that this build has been around for a long time is completely invalid. Blue Flame Hellions have also been around since the Beta and yet are currently experiencing a massive resurgence. Why? Slight change in details. So people are handling X number of hellions...what if we up the number? Simple change, dramatic difference in outcomes.
Such is the nature of RTS
For those who actually take the time to examine the build: what has your experience been in playing with the build a little bit? For example, I've been hiding the other 2 gates around the map with varying degrees of success depending on the tenacity of the Z's ling scouts. Sometimes it definitely is best to hide the gates in your own base and deny ovies to the best of your ability.
I've been thinking about the necessity of the 5th gate and what can be done to facilitate your ability to truly utilize it. Really, off one base 5 gates should be pushing the boundaries of what can be sustained. What if, to compensate for this and to allow for all 5 gates to be used, you pull all 3 probes off one of your geysers? This would free up some minerals to allow for more zealots and possibly even a few stalkers?
I've also been thinking about the unit composition and the effectiveness/cost of throwing in a few more stalkers than Kiwi does. Anyone have any experience with this they'd like to share?
What's your thoughts on this Tang?
While using this build I have had great degrees of success. The only times this build failed me is when I made a mistake and lost the game due to my own errors. This build works especially great on that lava map (the name escapes me) because it is hard for the zerg to make spines that can defend his ramp and expo well at the same time.
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I don't think it's ideal to hide gateways, ins(out)side. It's just too risky and it seems easier as well as safer to build them in your base. I'd recommend experimenting with proxy-pylon placements instead. I do warp in 2-3 stalkers eventually, especially if they're roach heavy or if my macro slips. You'll notice Kiwi built a few stalkers at the end.
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Thanks im gonna give this a try ive been trying to work in similar builds.
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This build works great in diamond even without expanding behind it. I can even beat zergs who shoot for the Losira roach/ling push in response to my 3 gate. The only time I fail is if for some reason my opponent blindly builds many spine crawlers, which does happen from time to time. But if I were a better player I would scout those spines getting built before warping in additional zealots and simply not attack into all those spines.
Unless I scout a WZP rush, I don't know why I would ever use any other opener. It seems like every zerg assumes that my initial zealot and sentries that push out are just "sharking" fake-pressure; I have yet to get surrounded by mass speedlings in the middle of the map.
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You played very, very bad.... no scouting at all it's not really representative, standard timing for spines if no expo is 6:30 btw after that its sg,dt or all in gates
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On August 09 2011 23:38 aZoX wrote:
You played very, very bad.... no scouting at all it's not really representative, standard timing for spines if no expo is 6:30 btw after that its sg,dt or all in gates
I usually fake a nexus and cancel it when I'm ready to build more zealots. v0v I get better mileage of doing the 3 gate fake-out more convincingly than I get from being slightly more optimal in my unit production.
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Thanks a lot for the post and the insight. I was currently working my way around a nice opening against zerg (assuming them noobs all go for mass roach, cuz yeah 95% of them do) but i think this is a good way to pressure them EVEN if the push fails.
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Okay I have played this build probably 10-15 times on the ladder so far. I have lost only 2 games playing this style basically to a ling counter that accidently got into my main and also to a maaaaaasssss spine crawler with roach play. I am a diamond level player and truthfully, I don't hide my 2 extra gates, I don't clear the tower before I push I don't really prevent any scouting from the zerg and I usually still roll them. The only fear I really have when I do this build is the spines that the zerg may put down. The times that I have seen a looot of spines, I end up running straight into the main and forcefield the zergs units outisde of the base. I still reinforce but I hide them until I am done with the main. The zerg is going to come up with the units to kill you while you are in his base and not while you are on your way. With that being said, I find a greaaaaat strategy is to hug a hatchery and kill the units as they pop. The zerg never is rallying units close to the hatchery so when they pop they almost always never attack cause they go to the rally first before attacking. Love the build because whether the zerg expects it or not, they usually die...
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Gotta love Kiwi's sentry stutter-step :D
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Yeah aimless, that's one of the perks of using this type of build - you can practice specific skills (Sentry/Zealot micro) in quick games.
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On August 10 2011 01:13 zagster11 wrote:
Okay I have played this build probably 10-15 times on the ladder so far. I have lost only 2 games playing this style basically to a ling counter that accidently got into my main and also to a maaaaaasssss spine crawler with roach play. I am a diamond level player and truthfully, I don't hide my 2 extra gates, I don't clear the tower before I push I don't really prevent any scouting from the zerg and I usually still roll them. The only fear I really have when I do this build is the spines that the zerg may put down. The times that I have seen a looot of spines, I end up running straight into the main and forcefield the zergs units outisde of the base. I still reinforce but I hide them until I am done with the main. The zerg is going to come up with the units to kill you while you are in his base and not while you are on your way. With that being said, I find a greaaaaat strategy is to hug a hatchery and kill the units as they pop. The zerg never is rallying units close to the hatchery so when they pop they almost always never attack cause they go to the rally first before attacking. Love the build because whether the zerg expects it or not, they usually die...
Do you put up a pylon beside the cliff of their base? You can just reinforce inside once you run up the ramp. Even more annoying.
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You can do that, or just put a pylon up right at the end of their creep and defend it with the zealot/sentry
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This build completely relies on your opponent making mistakes. You do not beat somebody who scouts and reacts properly with this build.
Sure, it looks great in that video when Protoss walks up the edge of Zerg's creep, plops down a Pylon, kills a few ovies floating aimlessly about, and walks in with a 30 food army as the Zerg's first indication he is getting attacked. The Zerg has a ton of drones, no spinecrawlers, and some roaches. Basically, the worst possible shit you can have against a Protoss 1basing you.
If coin flipping games is your cup of tea than this is a great build. I can even see it having some value in a BoX series where you have established credibility as somebody who 3gate expos in the earlier games.
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the problem I'm having is that almost no zerg in diamond falls for the "this looks like a 3 gate sentry expand" trick. I don't know whether it's because they don't know what a sentry expand looks like, or they just face nothing but 4 gate toss all day, but the second they see another unit beyond the opening zealot + sentry, they automatically throw don 5 crawlers. I thought I was doing it wrong until I checked my replays to make sure. Zerg will scout 1 gate... and that's it, and throw down the pure D. So, ironically enough, I've just been 3 gate expanding a lot, and that works really well too. Who knew?
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On August 09 2011 06:26 TangSC wrote:
If zerg goes for really early roach/ling all-in, I think you can just pull back to your ramp and FF and be ahead moving into 2base with a very delayed nexus.
This is incorrect IMO. The Zerg can either pump an absurd number of drones since he controls your front, he can pump an absurd number of speedlings off 2 hatches of larvae to delay your expo FOREVER, or he could let you expand while taking a third.
You can make smart decisions to not be massively behind if he goes for an early 2base roach/ling all-in, but unless he sacks all his units smashing against your ramp then you don't get ahead or even equal with him.
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6 min overlord sac leads to placement of 5 spine crawlers leads to strong defense leads to win!
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On August 10 2011 05:25 Wire wrote:
6 min overlord sac leads to placement of 5 spine crawlers leads to strong defense leads to win!
Well, unless the sentries that the protoss player has at the 6 minute mark kill the overload before it sees the additional gate.
Or unless the additional gates are proxied on some completely random spot on the map.
It's very difficult as a zerg to be certain that you aren't facing this all-in. I can have 3 gates near my ramp, 2 more gates that are almost impossible to scout, the correct number of units for a 3 gate expand revealed, *and* a nexus going down at approximately the expected timing. What exactly is the big tip-off that zerg is supposed to see to identify this push before it moves out?
Then, when moving out, it's still pretty easy to reveal only a 3-gates unit mixture while you clear towers. Most zergs just assume it's the usual fake-pressure sharking. Scouting the incoming units after the towers are cleared is too late to get enough spines and units built.
Now if zergs want to start dropping five spines because maybe their protoss opponent got distracted for ten seconds and put down his nexus just a little late, or because the protoss clears the watch towers with a zealot and some sentries, then that's definitely a metagame shift that I can get behind! Anything to move away from this "I have 70 drones 8 minutes into the game" response that zerg currently gets away with versus FFE and 3 gate expand.
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On August 09 2011 23:38 aZoX wrote:
You played very, very bad.... no scouting at all it's not really representative, standard timing for spines if no expo is 6:30 btw after that its sg,dt or all in gates
x2....if i of your 4 lings, at least one of them has to be in the back of the mineral line looking for the expo and an ovi has to be around checking. If you're deprived, cut drones, make spines immediately and continue scouting so that you can either confirm that there's an expo or start making roaches. Still 6:30-6:45 is pretty crucial. That's how I'm handling it at least.
On August 10 2011 05:23 fadestep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 06:26 TangSC wrote:
If zerg goes for really early roach/ling all-in, I think you can just pull back to your ramp and FF and be ahead moving into 2base with a very delayed nexus. This is incorrect IMO. The Zerg can either pump an absurd number of drones since he controls your front, he can pump an absurd number of speedlings off 2 hatches of larvae to delay your expo FOREVER, or he could let you expand while taking a third. You can make smart decisions to not be massively behind if he goes for an early 2base roach/ling all-in, but unless he sacks all his units smashing against your ramp then you don't get ahead or even equal with him.
Well yeah, I've made that mistake plenty of times and still do. There's one point where if I get faked out because I saw a stalker and a zeolot at the top of the ramp and can't scout the 4th gate, i get paranoid. It takes a lot of metal to be able to wait to see the nexus and not over-react. If I over-react, I'm generally just going to go all-in after I realize he actually expanded and then pray. Hopefully if I don't deny the expo, I at least kill as many sentries as I can, pull back with enough to hold off any counter pressure if it materializes.
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if he 3 spines you can easly expand right.spines are lots of mineral.
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Hasn't the sentry Zealot push been around since beta?
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Fake expo all-ins is why Zerg just all-in roach ling since we can't efficiently fake it QQ
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People can say what they want but this is Kiwikaki and I'm sure he can win with 3 gates zealot rush against a lot of gm if he want.
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I've had problems with this build, if they see your probe when going to place the proxy pylon they usually get a shit load of d and roaches and hold it pretty well, especially when they are on 2Base
~ high diamond
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Love it, tried it out and works AMAZINGLY. Its a good build to just go for those fast PvZ wins, if your not in the mood for the long drawn out struggle from the protoss side!
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On July 17 2011 22:25 phil.ipp wrote:
wow a hidden 5 gate allin
seriously thats what you came up after more than a year starcraft 2?
User was warned for this post
What the hell have you come up with?
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Don't fight fire with fire when it comes to negativity, guys ^^ Can't change everyone's mind just focus what works for you
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i realized when they make lots of spine crawlers they're about the same amount of workers as me, because when they're making d and roaches, they usually overreact, allowing me to be ahead economically, i decided to throw down a nexus, add 5 more gates and allin, works like a charm.
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Pylons you do a total of 10gates off 2 base? To me that seems a bit overkill, unless you're like MASSING sentries with all 4 gas early. I would recommend maybe 7 or 8 with +1 instead.
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Finding that this fails nearly every time I use it in platinum. Every zerg that doesn't cheese with a RR or early pool blind builds a ton of spine crawlers in their natural (checked, they aren't scouting the 2 extra gates) so you can't really touch them with this.
Then you end up with a delayed expansion which you usually end up trying to hold verses some sort of 2 base all in. For me it's been working out as a contain which requires constant attention (to ff etc) which allows me to keep a zerg on 2 base (good) and then coin flip that I pick the right tech to counter whatever he's going to all in with (nydus, burrowed roaches, mass baneling drops, mutas etc).
I'm not saying my execution is perfect but I think that it will probably work a lot better against better players who won't waste drones on defense "just in case".
But in general I'm finding that I'm at a loss as to what to do vs zerg at the moment as a lot of zergs have realised how greedy you can be vs a FFE and are getting to 80 drones in the first few minutes of the game.
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On August 11 2011 03:12 RudePlague wrote:
...builds a ton of spine crawlers in their natural (checked, they aren't scouting the 2 extra gates) so you can't really touch them with this.
Then you end up with a delayed expansion which you usually end up trying to hold verses some sort of 2 base all in. For me it's been working out as a contain which requires constant attention (to ff etc) which allows me to keep a zerg on 2 base (good) and then coin flip that I pick the right tech to counter whatever he's going to all in with (nydus, burrowed roaches, mass baneling drops, mutas etc).
1. Scout the large number of spines building in their natural prior to warping in a lot of zealots.
2. Use the money you would have spent on those zealots to build your natural only slightly later.
3. Be even in workers because he built a lot of spines and you didn't stop building probes.
4. Scout his main with hallucination so that you don't have to guess about his tech.
5. Now it's a standard game.
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Good points galivet. Another thing to note is just because you HAVE 5 gateways doesn't mean you have to USE 5 gateways. The good thing about your gateway army is it's pretty mobile, and you can usually find little vulnerabilities to do some damage no matter what their defense looks like. So, if it looks like he's adequately prepared you may consider using less units and just trying to do "light" pressure and poke at his more vulnerable areas, warping in maybe 2-3 units at a time instead of 5 so you can still afford your nexus and be even or ahead in the macro-game.
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I have tried this build since seeing this thread and i can say it works great. However it completely hinges upon the zerg not scouting your additional gateways, and not being suspicious of the sheer amount of zealots and sentries you have. My only really concern is whether or not this attack holds up against spine crawlers? I've found that even with a significant amount of zealots/sentries spines still do a ton of dmg and can fend of the push.
Also, if one sees spines and decides it wouldn't be a good idea to engage, is their a possibility to transition using this build? or is it simply an all in?
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It depends on how many spines they make, Ryguy. If there are 2 or 3, it's possible to break it as long as their unit count isn't too big. However, if they have 4or5 spines and a queen with energy to transfuse, you might be better off not engaging at all.
It's not an all in, you can definitely put down a nexus if there is too much defense. It'll be delayed but if you're making a decent amount of probes while you push out, you're not far behind because he's spent a lot of his minerals/larva on spines/lings.
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I take back everything i said negative about this build, i was doing it wrong the entire time, ive been trying to do this build with 22 probes until i realized you can support it better with 30.
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When I sometimes play Protoss I use this build but I get way too much minerals. What am I doing wrong?
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I am a high master zerg, so my words are probably worthless against GM players. But normally when toss does sentry expand, their nexus goes down at 6:00, 6:10 min mark sharp. If I see a nexus any later I assume an aggressive build and add spines (maybe spore if i suspect DT or void ray)
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On August 11 2011 03:11 TangSC wrote:
Pylons you do a total of 10gates off 2 base? To me that seems a bit overkill, unless you're like MASSING sentries with all 4 gas early. I would recommend maybe 7 or 8 with +1 instead.
hmm couldnt find the original comment but 10 gates is viable off 2 base if you are going archon chargelot, because HT cd is very very high :p
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On August 13 2011 14:38 HinagikUx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 03:11 TangSC wrote:
Pylons you do a total of 10gates off 2 base? To me that seems a bit overkill, unless you're like MASSING sentries with all 4 gas early. I would recommend maybe 7 or 8 with +1 instead. hmm couldnt find the original comment but 10 gates is viable off 2 base if you are going archon chargelot, because HT cd is very very high :p
So is 14gates ( See Cruncher ).
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Yeah if you can have the game-sense to know whether to engage, I think you'll find there are times when you get to the creep and just pull back and take your delayed nexus, if they've committed to spines and a huge defense their drone count is going to be lower and their 3rd base later/harder to defend. Thus,if you execute this build, don't engage, and pull back into a large 2base gateway push you'll kill a lot of zergs by killing their 3rd.
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This is so much easier than following a build on liquipedia. So much easier to understand all the reasons things are happening cause it's explained so well.
Even helps people like me who are in silver 
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Thanks marokeas ^^ I hope you've had some success
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Hey guys, I was watching some Stephano games and I noticed a game against Kiwikaki where kiwi opened with this 5gate zealot/sentry build and Stephano showcased brilliantly how to defend with ling/spine, pay careful attention to the production tab if you're having trouble knowing when to make spines, when to drone, when to make lings, etc. (I will update the OP to include this video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIaJPr6td34
GL HF all
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playing terran i went for 1barracks CC and lost to this style assuming he was just doing light 3gate pressure..embarassing but its still used at the high level and very unexpected. he just had so many sentries that i couldnt repair my bunkers and my marine only defense got ownzor'd. good build for fast (though cheap ) wins
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Yeah you can do it in pvt, but if they do like a 2rax with techlab/reactor expand and bunker the top of their ramp before moving their CC down you're basically dead. Unless you can get a pylon close enough to warp inside, and then it'll come down to your mechanics, focus-firing, and forcefields. I think there are probably better 1 base protoss all-ins vs Terran.
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Stephano makes it look so easy lol
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Yes but stephano is a beast lol
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I just want to say that the people belittleling this build can go home and use their standard builds. It's a very high quality, unique, and a very precise timing attack that works at ALL levels of gameplay. That in itself renders it viable.
Furthermore, I think many tosses should thank Tang as he's taking the time to help a race HE DOESN'T EVEN PLAY to improve vs his own and share his experience with this very powerful strategy.
I'm still trying to master it, but I'm sure it'll be worth the trouble!
Thx Tang :D
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fun build, been doing this for a while. also very very effective against gasless expanding terrans
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EPT
