EPTRuthless PvZ Build for New Rush Maps (Season 3 GM) - Page 10
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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ins(out)side
220 Posts
I was having trouble with my PvZ and in spite of knowing full well about the build I just didn't think about implementing it. The OP gave me the inspiration to start playing around with and practicing the build and it was successful. Which leads to the question: How many of you knee-jerk-response, devils advocate-playing Theorycrafters (who play P) actually TRIED the build before spouting off with relativist non-sense about why you think it won't work? Again, the argument that this build has been around for a long time is completely invalid. Blue Flame Hellions have also been around since the Beta and yet are currently experiencing a massive resurgence. Why? Slight change in details. So people are handling X number of hellions...what if we up the number? Simple change, dramatic difference in outcomes. Such is the nature of RTS For those who actually take the time to examine the build: what has your experience been in playing with the build a little bit? For example, I've been hiding the other 2 gates around the map with varying degrees of success depending on the tenacity of the Z's ling scouts. Sometimes it definitely is best to hide the gates in your own base and deny ovies to the best of your ability. I've been thinking about the necessity of the 5th gate and what can be done to facilitate your ability to truly utilize it. Really, off one base 5 gates should be pushing the boundaries of what can be sustained. What if, to compensate for this and to allow for all 5 gates to be used, you pull all 3 probes off one of your geysers? This would free up some minerals to allow for more zealots and possibly even a few stalkers? I've also been thinking about the unit composition and the effectiveness/cost of throwing in a few more stalkers than Kiwi does. Anyone have any experience with this they'd like to share? What's your thoughts on this Tang? | ||
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JMC4
United States261 Posts
On August 09 2011 10:05 ins(out)side wrote: Just because a build has been done in some variation for quite some time doesn't mean that given new maps to implement and play around with it can't be effective. Even without new maps, so-called "old" builds can come back with the slightest of details changed and become extremely effective for those willing to put in the time and effort to see what works. I was having trouble with my PvZ and in spite of knowing full well about the build I just didn't think about implementing it. The OP gave me the inspiration to start playing around with and practicing the build and it was successful. Which leads to the question: How many of you knee-jerk-response, devils advocate-playing Theorycrafters (who play P) actually TRIED the build before spouting off with relativist non-sense about why you think it won't work? Again, the argument that this build has been around for a long time is completely invalid. Blue Flame Hellions have also been around since the Beta and yet are currently experiencing a massive resurgence. Why? Slight change in details. So people are handling X number of hellions...what if we up the number? Simple change, dramatic difference in outcomes. Such is the nature of RTS For those who actually take the time to examine the build: what has your experience been in playing with the build a little bit? For example, I've been hiding the other 2 gates around the map with varying degrees of success depending on the tenacity of the Z's ling scouts. Sometimes it definitely is best to hide the gates in your own base and deny ovies to the best of your ability. I've been thinking about the necessity of the 5th gate and what can be done to facilitate your ability to truly utilize it. Really, off one base 5 gates should be pushing the boundaries of what can be sustained. What if, to compensate for this and to allow for all 5 gates to be used, you pull all 3 probes off one of your geysers? This would free up some minerals to allow for more zealots and possibly even a few stalkers? I've also been thinking about the unit composition and the effectiveness/cost of throwing in a few more stalkers than Kiwi does. Anyone have any experience with this they'd like to share? What's your thoughts on this Tang? While using this build I have had great degrees of success. The only times this build failed me is when I made a mistake and lost the game due to my own errors. This build works especially great on that lava map (the name escapes me) because it is hard for the zerg to make spines that can defend his ramp and expo well at the same time. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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TheCatsmasher
United States3 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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galivet
288 Posts
Unless I scout a WZP rush, I don't know why I would ever use any other opener. It seems like every zerg assumes that my initial zealot and sentries that push out are just "sharking" fake-pressure; I have yet to get surrounded by mass speedlings in the middle of the map. | ||
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aZoX
Canada358 Posts
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galivet
288 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:38 aZoX wrote: You played very, very bad.... no scouting at all it's not really representative, standard timing for spines if no expo is 6:30 btw after that its sg,dt or all in gates I usually fake a nexus and cancel it when I'm ready to build more zealots. v0v I get better mileage of doing the 3 gate fake-out more convincingly than I get from being slightly more optimal in my unit production. | ||
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Underoath
Peru113 Posts
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zagster11
18 Posts
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
On August 10 2011 01:13 zagster11 wrote: Okay I have played this build probably 10-15 times on the ladder so far. I have lost only 2 games playing this style basically to a ling counter that accidently got into my main and also to a maaaaaasssss spine crawler with roach play. I am a diamond level player and truthfully, I don't hide my 2 extra gates, I don't clear the tower before I push I don't really prevent any scouting from the zerg and I usually still roll them. The only fear I really have when I do this build is the spines that the zerg may put down. The times that I have seen a looot of spines, I end up running straight into the main and forcefield the zergs units outisde of the base. I still reinforce but I hide them until I am done with the main. The zerg is going to come up with the units to kill you while you are in his base and not while you are on your way. With that being said, I find a greaaaaat strategy is to hug a hatchery and kill the units as they pop. The zerg never is rallying units close to the hatchery so when they pop they almost always never attack cause they go to the rally first before attacking. Love the build because whether the zerg expects it or not, they usually die... Do you put up a pylon beside the cliff of their base? You can just reinforce inside once you run up the ramp. Even more annoying. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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fadestep
United States605 Posts
Sure, it looks great in that video when Protoss walks up the edge of Zerg's creep, plops down a Pylon, kills a few ovies floating aimlessly about, and walks in with a 30 food army as the Zerg's first indication he is getting attacked. The Zerg has a ton of drones, no spinecrawlers, and some roaches. Basically, the worst possible shit you can have against a Protoss 1basing you. If coin flipping games is your cup of tea than this is a great build. I can even see it having some value in a BoX series where you have established credibility as somebody who 3gate expos in the earlier games. | ||
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Mormagil
35 Posts
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fadestep
United States605 Posts
On August 09 2011 06:26 TangSC wrote: If zerg goes for really early roach/ling all-in, I think you can just pull back to your ramp and FF and be ahead moving into 2base with a very delayed nexus. This is incorrect IMO. The Zerg can either pump an absurd number of drones since he controls your front, he can pump an absurd number of speedlings off 2 hatches of larvae to delay your expo FOREVER, or he could let you expand while taking a third. You can make smart decisions to not be massively behind if he goes for an early 2base roach/ling all-in, but unless he sacks all his units smashing against your ramp then you don't get ahead or even equal with him. | ||
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Wire
United States494 Posts
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galivet
288 Posts
On August 10 2011 05:25 Wire wrote: 6 min overlord sac leads to placement of 5 spine crawlers leads to strong defense leads to win! Well, unless the sentries that the protoss player has at the 6 minute mark kill the overload before it sees the additional gate. Or unless the additional gates are proxied on some completely random spot on the map. It's very difficult as a zerg to be certain that you aren't facing this all-in. I can have 3 gates near my ramp, 2 more gates that are almost impossible to scout, the correct number of units for a 3 gate expand revealed, *and* a nexus going down at approximately the expected timing. What exactly is the big tip-off that zerg is supposed to see to identify this push before it moves out? Then, when moving out, it's still pretty easy to reveal only a 3-gates unit mixture while you clear towers. Most zergs just assume it's the usual fake-pressure sharking. Scouting the incoming units after the towers are cleared is too late to get enough spines and units built. Now if zergs want to start dropping five spines because maybe their protoss opponent got distracted for ten seconds and put down his nexus just a little late, or because the protoss clears the watch towers with a zealot and some sentries, then that's definitely a metagame shift that I can get behind! Anything to move away from this "I have 70 drones 8 minutes into the game" response that zerg currently gets away with versus FFE and 3 gate expand. | ||
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