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On July 18 2011 04:58 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 04:56 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 04:44 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 04:32 iamke55 wrote:On July 18 2011 02:10 laharl23 wrote:
i dont like builds where its "if they scout you, you lose"
any top top zerg who actively scouts and knows this is coming can defend.
but for lower leagues you will win 95% of the time most likely. On July 18 2011 02:39 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I always love it when people say "this is safe against Zerg because it looks like a 3 gate expand." As in, no Zerg players are ever aggressive against 3 gate expand? I am, every game, and if there was a 7:00 12 unit push coming my way I'd probably wonder why my opponent thought that would work as I clean up the push with a single attack-move and proceed to murder them. Pretending to be vulnerable is not a good way to make a Zerg player build drones! I love it when strategy forum heroes claim every build won't work against them or anyone good. How do you explain this? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YPwD5.jpg) i dont get your point, you link kiwikakis profile? so you're saying kiwikaki 5gates every game vs zerg? If the 5gate build was so good for top pros then everyone would do it, but vs people with good game sense/cheese defense its not very good. thats why you don't see it often at the highest levels. Ever check Kiwikaki's match history? This is the exact build he does in every ladder PvZ. No matter how high your MMR is, at least on the NA ladder you will never reach a point where zerg players are consistently defending this. Sounds like a problem to me. But also, ladder isn't tournament. You can't simply win a BO3 or BO5 doing just this build which is what's important. This build is so easy I could easily do this and be masters in P and I don't even play P. Kind of a joke. Ladder doesn't mean much in the end though.
You can't roach ling all in every fucking tournament bo-whatever game but it doesn't mean the build is completely unviable. People cannon rush one game in a series, but they don't do it every freaken game because that would be stupid and prone to getting blind countered.
If YOU truly believe this build is so easily scouted then don't fucking do it every game. The OP is just saying "hey, this is a pretty strong build that can mislead your opponent and earn you a nice win in a best of 3 scenario, or you can just try it on random ladder zergs". Stop bringing up so much irrelevant shit.
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On July 17 2011 21:31 TangSC wrote:By Tang (233) Chat Channel: TangStarcraft This is a build ROOTKiWiKaKi did to me (Tang 233), and considering he was rank1 Grand Master at the time, I assume it’s a build he uses often and with great success. I don't mean to advertise, and if it's out of line I'll take the link down, but I will be posting example videos on the replay/youtube tabs of my website so it seems relevant to include a link: www.TangStarcraft.com
:l
good build, very very old though.
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dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion.
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Excuse me, naive question but.. Zerg won't scout any expo by 7', won't he be a tad.. suspicious ? I mean the whole point of the build is to hide your gates and prepare for a strong push, but not expoing is completely giving it away.. he'll just drop a ton of spine crawlers and it's gg..
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The maps this build is good on are the same maps that are good for roach ling aggression which directly counters zealot sentry. This build is also extra vulnerable to standard early pools, even 11 overpool since you cut your first zealot for so long.
There are many ways for zerg to scout this, mineral walking a drone while using lings to take hits is one, also overlords around the edge of the base.
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I think if you scout the 11pool, you can just chrono your zealot. Also, there really aren't many ways to scout. That drone that mineral-walked in will die to sentries before the 4th and 5th gate finish, overlords will die before they get close to the 4th and 5th gate too. And I mean if you move out with your 12 units and roach/ling push is coming that early (7min) you can pull back and defend with 5 gates then counter, or opt to still put up a nexus if you feel you can't counter.
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Some random diamond just did this to Sen on TL Attack. He actually did pretty well. It was cross position metal... probably would have had a much better chance in a shorter rush map like the new season 3 maps.
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Reasons people think this build is bad and why i disagree:
Roach/ling aggression: This build is massing sentries, the ultimate solution to aggression, especially early game. Honestly, using the laws of good army control, there should be a probe on every flank, or the army should be hugging walls and chillin in tight corridors. Essential sentry push play.
Overlord Scouting: It just does not scout an entire base. GSL Finals oGsMC vs Julyzerg July had an ovie scout but he failed to see the dark shrine still. Such things can happen on maps that favor building hiding. It can happen, it does happen.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels.
That's just not true! What are you talking about? No one has perfect scouting and responses. Hell, oGsMC wins tons of games with these builds. Most builds are screwed or hamstrung if they are completely scouted. Builds should not be completely scouted, outside of Terran scans. oGsInka plays based on what his opponent sees, not what his opponent could see. People do it because it is viable..
Regarding the build: I love me a good push that can go back to producing probes and expansions as long as it does a little economy damage. This is one of those. Thanks OP :D
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On July 17 2011 22:25 phil.ipp wrote:
wow a hidden 5 gate allin
seriously thats what you came up after more than a year starcraft 2?
i think you mean a build that is similar to how all protoss played for the first 6months of the game when they thought 4gating/5gating was standard and when they lost it was because protoss was weak.
on a serious note, i'm interested to see how this works against losira style attakcs (cut drones @ 30-38~ make roaches/slings, take fast 3rd, power) i believe they will utterly rape this :X
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On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion.
If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it.
But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example:
4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg.
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On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg.
So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense?
what doesn't make sense about that?
At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion.
This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that.
I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 18 2011 06:15 TangSC wrote:
I think if you scout the 11pool, you can just chrono your zealot. Also, there really aren't many ways to scout. That drone that mineral-walked in will die to sentries before the 4th and 5th gate finish, overlords will die before they get close to the 4th and 5th gate too. And I mean if you move out with your 12 units and roach/ling push is coming that early (7min) you can pull back and defend with 5 gates then counter, or opt to still put up a nexus if you feel you can't counter.
The problem is he goes roach/ling and pushes you back you can't "counter" at all. He will continually outproduce you until he bashes your head in with superior production. And you're so behind in economy you'll never catch up unless he screws up his expansion timings. But the metagame is shifting away from roach/ling aggression against 3 gate sentry expand, so this will be more effective.
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You can get 5 gate charge lots by 7 minutes. Much less micro intensive and more dps.
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On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg. So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense? what doesn't make sense about that? At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion. This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that. I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you.
ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it?
The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims?
Your claims:
1. 95% win rate in lower leagues
2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time
3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter
4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this
5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down.
What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down.
Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build.
+ Show Spoiler +Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0
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On July 18 2011 06:38 quaffle wrote:
You can get 5 gate charge lots by 7 minutes. Much less micro intensive and more dps.
It also looks nothing like a 3gate expand.
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On July 18 2011 06:45 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg. So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense? what doesn't make sense about that? At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion. This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that. I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you. ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it? The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims? Your claims: 1. 95% win rate in lower leagues 2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time 3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter 4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this 5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down. What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down. Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build. + Show Spoiler +Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0
You're right about one thing and thats about it., I've never faced this build, because im a protoss player.
I've actually used this build many times at the highest level (many grandmaster players) and I have concluded that-
1. If scouted correctly, it can be defended by lots of spine crawlers.
2. There are other ways to scout besides getting an over-lord in, example, not seeing an expansion at 6 minutes and seeing lots of sentry makes no sense for a build, so the only option would be 5gate.
3. Game sense is much higher at the top levels, just look at nestea vs inca gsl finals, how did nestea know inca was going dt's? Did he ever get an overlord in? nope hes just a great player with good game sense.
4. Did I ever say the build wasn't viable? in any of my posts? no i did not. Its completely viable. I just said that I stopped using builds where I rely on my opponents to make mistakes/play bad, because I want to get better at the game and not do cheesy all ins.
5. You probably will get a 95% win rate with this in lower leagues because its a very easy build to pull off and very hard to defend, unless you are a high level zerg. obviously im making up the number but its a estimation, would you like me to get out statistics or some shit?
My point was- its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win.
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its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win.
What build doesn't rely on the mistakes on an opponent? As long as the mistakes aren't the kind that people over silver league stop making (and Kiwikaki shows that GMs still make these "mistakes") then the build is fine.
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On July 18 2011 06:54 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 06:45 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 06:36 laharl23 wrote:On July 18 2011 06:32 tuestresfat wrote:On July 18 2011 05:50 laharl23 wrote:
dont know why you guys get mad and swear at the people who think this isn't a good build.
I was just stating my opinion that builds where IF your opponent scouts it, they can defend, are not very viable at the top levels. And your only example is that kiwikaki (probably the guy with the sickest control ever and could win with any build) does it on the ladder so therefore it must be viable.
In my opinion its not, and if you want to swear at me and get mad then go for it. I'm just stating my opinion. If that translates to "I can't think of a counter-argument that makes any sense because my initial argument never made any sense to begin with so I'll just say it's my opinion and these guys can shove it". Then thank you, I am very glad you are fine with me being mad at your incompetence because my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, and I believe I am entitled to it. But unlike you, I actually have an argument that makes sense. For example: 4gate is very easily stopped when scouted, and it's even easier to scout than this build. I guess that's why we never see pro players use it at big tournaments like GSL, dreamhack, and mlg. So my argument of this build is bad if its scouted doesn't make sense? what doesn't make sense about that? At least i dont get mad and swear at people when i disagree with their opinion. This build IS bad if its scouted. Just throw down 4 spine crawlers and there's no way of getting through that. I said i personally dont like builds where you just rely on your opponent to play bad, if you like to do all in 5gate builds more power to you. ok, I will consider your argument. Can you prove it? The OP has listed Kiwikaki as an example who has achieved results with this build. Who have you to draw reference to to prove your claims? Your claims: 1. 95% win rate in lower leagues 2. Insta lose if scouted at an arbitrary time 3. Completely unviable in tournament play, or a best of anything for that matter 4. "Competent" zergs with good game sense will never lose to this 5. Throwing down 4 spines will completely shut this down. What is your example to counter prove that this build is "easily stopped when scouted"? Reading your other posts it's very clear all you've done is read the OP (which has no vods/replays) and theorycraft: 'Zerg can stop this if scouted'. Due to your 4-digit IQ and overwhelming experience playing starcraft 2, you were also able to deduce a 95% win rate at an arbitrarily defined "lower leagues", and that 4 spines will be sufficient in shutting this down. Surely this is not all theory crafting, right? With such accurate conclusions, you must have faced this build hundreds of times, and probably tried executing it yourself at least once to understand the timings of the build. + Show Spoiler +Reality check:
Number of times you've faced this build - 0 You're right about one thing and thats about it., I've never faced this build, because im a protoss player. I've actually used this build many times at the highest level (many grandmaster players) and I have concluded that- 1. If scouted correctly, it can be defended by lots of spine crawlers. 2. There are other ways to scout besides getting an over-lord in, example, not seeing an expansion at 6 minutes and seeing lots of sentry makes no sense for a build, so the only option would be 5gate. 3. Game sense is much higher at the top levels, just look at nestea vs inca gsl finals, how did nestea know inca was going dt's? Did he ever get an overlord in? nope hes just a great player with good game sense. 4. Did I ever say the build wasn't viable? in any of my posts? no i did not. Its completely viable. I just said that I stopped using builds where I rely on my opponents to make mistakes/play bad, because I want to get better at the game and not do cheesy all ins. 5. You probably will get a 95% win rate with this in lower leagues because its a very easy build to pull off and very hard to defend, unless you are a high level zerg. obviously im making up the number but its a estimation, would you like me to get out statistics or some shit? My point was- its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win.
You win, I give up. You're beyond help.
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On July 18 2011 07:04 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +its a build that relies on your opponent to screw up, play bad, make mistakes, if he plays well and sniffs it out, he will win. What build doesn't rely on the mistakes on an opponent? As long as the mistakes aren't the kind that people over silver league stop making (and Kiwikaki shows that GMs still make these "mistakes") then the build is fine.
mistakes in a 6 minute game are a lot less common than a mistake in 20+ minute game.
And nobody plays starcraft 2 and plays the way you just described. Do you really believe players play hoping there opponent doesn't scout/know what build is coming? They hope they don't but they don't rely on it.
This build completely relies on your opponent to not scout it/respond correctly.
If you want an example of this build being beat just watch minigun vs morrow from the EG's masters cup.
Morrow responds perfectly with lots of spine crawlers and minigun is way behind.
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On July 18 2011 05:56 Nyast wrote:
Excuse me, naive question but.. Zerg won't scout any expo by 7', won't he be a tad.. suspicious ? I mean the whole point of the build is to hide your gates and prepare for a strong push, but not expoing is completely giving it away.. he'll just drop a ton of spine crawlers and it's gg..
This, in a sentry expand the nexus goes down at 5:30-6:30. If there's no nexus at 6:45, he's suspicious. If there's no nexus at 7:00 and you've revealed more than 3 sentries, there's no other build you could be doing than this one. At least hide some of your sentries to make him expect VR/DT and waste money on spores.
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EPT
