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On June 21 2011 06:57 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 01:43 Synystyr wrote: Hydras are only really good in ZvT when you need to get a quick squad of AA units out to deal with something. Also if the opponent is going really heavy Marauders, you could technically go Hydras and soft counter them. However mass lings or mutas would be better there, so Hydras really dont have a niche anywhere =[
They need more health and speed >_< Why not just muta if they are going marauders......... mutas HARD counter marauders :lol: >_>;;
That's what I said....read the next sentence >_>
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unfortunately hydras dont have stim and thus die to every terran ground unit with the exception of the scv and mule.
vs marines - hydras get owned horribly here once you have stim, combat shields and medivac, which is basically all the time. vs marauders - hydras do well, but with stim, medivacs and marine support hydras get melted. vs tanks - trololol vs thors - they do decently but thors are usually supported with either tanks which trololol hydras or bioball which beats hydras vs ghosts - pew pew pew vs hellions - hydras do really well against hellions but you're probably never gonna get mass hydra vs hellion on creep unless the enemy is metagaming you when you're going ling heavy and mass hellions. in this case you probably win but then the opponent has tanks so hydras go lulz
hydralisks basically suck because they don't do shit offcreep and have shit hp, making them take infinite damage vs most unit compositions that terrans typically make
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It's useful to get 1-2 hydras per roach army just for increased dps ala immortals in Protoss armies. The problem then is why the hell would you plop down a hydra den for just 1-2 hydras a deathball?
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I have an image in my head of many banelings and hydras vs marine tank medivac...
Banelings roll in, tanks fire the banes while the marines run back so they dont die to them...
While banes are being targetted by tanks, hydras kill the tanks and then a large hydra force with ling reinforcement against marines...
would it work?
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I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard modified the Hydra for HotS to make it more versatile seeing as it really has niche uses throughout all matchups.
It really feels like the only way Hydras would be viable against Terrans is if they decided to go mass air, although I would argue that going Spire with Muta Corruptor mix would be much more effective simply for mobility and their overall dominance over Terran air.
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I saw TLO (as Zerg) use the hydras (with range upgrade) and infestors to fight MMMs squads in TvZ late game. Because the marines and maurders are fungaled the hydras get free shots at the rines. Because the rines cant hit them the hydras r very cost effective. Although this was more effective before they changed fungal growth from 8 to 4 seconds. I could still see it as viable against bio style terran when they are attacking all over the map. A dozen hydras and a few infestors could wipe out the squads of MMMs.
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hydras are good as a fast air counter vs voids specifically...it gets flimsy under mass air...you'll need to switch to mass corruptors if your opponent sticks to air.. it really depends on how you scout... i scout pretty consistently almost to the second with my build at certain critical timings linked to my tech timing.
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Hydralisks simply aren't cost-efficient versus any realistic Terran composition. They're basically fat Marines that can't stim and cost gas. Why would you build them when your opponent has access to a unit that is very nearly the same only better and cheaper?
Seriously, compare one Hydralisk to a pair of Marines. They fullfill the same basic role; they are both fragile ranged units with an excellent damage output that can attack both land and air targets. They have the same mineral and supply costs, but the Marines have more health together (especially after combat shields), stim packs (meaning significantly more damage), will likely be supported by Medivacs, and get more of a boost out of upgrades. For an extra 50 gas, you get one extra range. To be completely fair, Hydras will also die a bit less quickly if they run into splash damage (which is to say that they won't die instantly like Marines), but the comparison is still pretty heavily weighted against them.
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On June 21 2011 08:20 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 05:50 jdsowa wrote: I tried to think of ways to use the Hydra, until I realized that I can't afford to have any 80 hp, unarmored units taking up 2 supply in my army, mid/late game. You could use them for drops, but zerglings have the best dps/cost and dps/supply in the game, so why bother. The range of 6 (*after* the ridiculous upgrade), is pointless vT, unless you've got 20+ roaches in your front line. HP and armor are more important than dps, imho, which is why 80 supply of thors will destroy 120 supply of zerglings without losing a single unit. dps per supply? archon,.bl. thor, void ray and many more
in terms of dps per supply, none of those units match zerglings. In fact none even come close.
With full upgrades:
Archon - 6.725 vs biological units (doesn't include splash obviously) Thor - 10.17 vs ground Void Ray - 11.45 when fully charged on a massive armored unit Brood Lord - 5.275 including the broodling (this requires +3 air attack and +3 melee attack) + negligible amount since the first BL shot will fire 2 broodlings instead of 1.
meanwhile, zergling - 27.2
Keep in mind that armor will affect zerglings more than, say, archons, but in terms of raw numbers zerglings are miles ahead of everything else.
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On June 21 2011 12:06 LastLemming wrote: I saw TLO (as Zerg) use the hydras (with range upgrade) and infestors to fight MMMs squads in TvZ late game. Because the marines and maurders are fungaled the hydras get free shots at the rines. Because the rines cant hit them the hydras r very cost effective. Although this was more effective before they changed fungal growth from 8 to 4 seconds. I could still see it as viable against bio style terran when they are attacking all over the map. A dozen hydras and a few infestors could wipe out the squads of MMMs.
love TLO, but that just seems silly. You can easily fungal them one more time, and invest the gas you would have spent on hydras onto more infestors.
Ive used hydra once agaist mass starport play, viking banshee,medivac marine, thats the only comp its real effective agiast. because muta get shredded by this composition.
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Why do Hydras remind me of marines lol, i think they're a powerful unit that, like marines, fail against seige tanks. So use roaches to tank and move in hydras to deal dps? idk, hopefully there's some buff to them as they are marginally used in zvp.
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As a terran I cant see hydra's being cost-effective versus any real terran combo, off creep they just wouldnt be match for a bio ball, and mech play will destroy them with siege tanks. Prehaps if there are buffs in future patches they can become viable, but currently they are sort of worthless.
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On June 21 2011 11:25 peidongyang wrote: vs hellions - hydras do really well against hellions but you're probably never gonna get mass hydra vs hellion on creep unless the enemy is metagaming you when you're going ling heavy and mass hellions. in this case you probably win but then the opponent has tanks so hydras go lulz
blueflame hellions are one of the strongest hydralisk counters. Just get as close as possible to the hydras with the hellions and they will soooo insanely splash them...
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Never in any situation at all. Ever.
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Erm there were some really cute situations back in Season Two (?) of GSL with the old fungal. Fungal was 8 seconds and with Marines 5 range v Hydras 6 the Hydras would sit at max range and chew through the marines while they couldn't fire back.
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Hydras don't "stomp" gateway armies, btw, though they are good against them. They are relatively even 1 to 1 with stalkers with guardian shield up.
They are an effective harass unit (a couple hydras in the back of mineral line will melt probes)
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On June 21 2011 03:58 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 01:34 BinxyBrown wrote: VS Marines - Hydras can win but it isn't cost effective, also marines will scale better with ups VS Tanks - lol VS Thors - they do pretty well here, unless there is any other type of support VS Hellions - they do fine until the hellions get on top of them, but roaches do better are available sooner, and cost less. VS Marauders - Hydras do great here as well, not quite as good as lings, but I could see hydra ling being just as acceptable as ling baneling vs just MM, maybe MMM. Once you throw tanks into the mix it gets really bad, also hydras drastically slow your army movement off creep so they can become a liability when you need to do counters or run bys. VS Banshees - Hydras do find once again, just not as well as queens or mutas that also serve other purposes like spreading creep or harassing/scouting VS Medivacs - Hydras would be nice for sniping drops after they have unloaded, but nothing queens and ling couldn't take care of almost as well, however at 50 gas each they would cut deep into mutas not to mention the cost of hydra range and the den it self. Mutas are a better answer for deflecting drops in transit or killing drops that have already started to leave your base, and are still decent at drops in progress. VS BC - they are bad, corruptors hold this down, another reason to choose spire over hydra den, although most terran dont make this unit anyways.
that leaves a hand full of unused units that aren't really problems in the match up yet anyways. Also anything you would use hydras to counter is probably countered harder by either mutas or infestors, which is actually pretty true vs toss as well. Hydras take as many shots as a roach to die to a tank. FYI. The range also means that they can attack before a roach does. But their terrible speed means the roaches will close the gap they need to shoot before the hydra does. Even on creep, speed-upgraded roach is at 3.75? speed and hydra is only 3.375 speed. And the roach is cheaper, and doesn't melt to ... every other form of damage T has (except marauders!) Even with their range upgrade, Hydras only outrange Roaches by 2. That means you need to traverse 7 range vs 9 range before you can attack with either unit. Gives the hydra ON creep a 0.4 sec advantage - not very much. Off creep, the roach will close and start attacking the tank earlier.
Also, burst damage is a bit more useful for killing off tanks - a pack of roaches that can oneshot a tank is ostensibly more useful than a same-cost pack of hydras that might take an extra volley before the tank dies. So hydras still aren't viable for this task. (Ling-roach is a much better ground composition when there's tanks around, let alone mutas if you're sinking all that gas.)
And the range upgrade is really freaking expensive. 150/150 to have 6 range instead of 5. I hate researching it even when I am building hydras - hydra tech is EFFECTIVELY more expensive than a spire when you look at it this way!
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fast hydra drop against a teching or starport terran works. especially if you can drop on top of the tanks. of course you will want to drop lings with the hydras to tank a bit. other than that.......no I dont want to think about it anymore cuz they give me nightmares.
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On the Hydra vs Tank thing
A hydra takes 3 shots from a tank to die, the same ammount like roaches.
It would be cool to see effective use of the hydrasik in sc2 but it seems not wort it.. You could use the hydras to morph them to... argh wrong game  Maybe just play sc2bw? :D
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If you scout 2x starport and don't have time for spire and can't build spores due to religious reasons, then go for it. Otherwise forget about it.
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