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[D] Viable Hydralisk Uses (ZvT) - Page 8
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
Mod Edit: Here is what you should do, you should replace your posts with something constructive. User was temp banned from Strategy Forum for this post. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
They have their place, like against Mass Air and maybe BioMarauder and ThorMech but other than that I don´t think they have a place here. They are still good units and you can use them but its not really optimal IMO. Mass Air (apart from that this strategy is retarted): so he either has Mass BCs or Mass Cloak Banshee vs ground. cloak based: vikings snipe your overseer from 9range while your hydras chill on 6, cloaked banshees clean up... BC based: BCs in bigger numbers rape hydralisks, costwise, supplywise BioMarauder: Marauders are only a reaction to roaches or ultras, but hey, if you somehow where unable to beat him with zerglings early and refuse to take the free win with mutalisks, I guess Hydralisks are your 3rd choice to still be fine. ThorMech: Thors are OK vs hydras, any other mech unit rapes it. I think even pure Thor beats hydralisks cost/supply wise, yet I would have to test it. | ||
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mrsaturn
United States22 Posts
the only problem is damage upgrades dont sync up, but i dont see that as a big problem. | ||
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naggerNZ
New Zealand708 Posts
Unfortunately, with the current meta-game, Hydra's just don't have any practical role to fill. Successful ZvT is a choke out, not a knock out. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 23 2011 23:08 naggerNZ wrote: At the moment Hydras just don't fit the ZvT matchup style. A max supply Terran army will rape any max supply army a Zerg can field. The point of the matchup from Zerg's perspective is not to reach max supply first and crush them in one big push, but rather to take a large economic lead, and use harass and map control (via speedlings and mutalisks) to keep Terran from being able to amass a 200/200 supply army. Hydras, apart from drops or nydus (which become increasingly less effective as the game goes on), fill neither of these roles. The only time you'd want to be taking a Terran army on head-on is after you've already picked it apart with mutalisks, and are using cost effective, burst damage units such as banelings and speedlings. You want to kill everything in the shortest time possible to minimize tank damage. Unfortunately, with the current meta-game, Hydra's just don't have any practical role to fill. Successful ZvT is a choke out, not a knock out. Broodlords, Infestors, Banelings, Corruptors are all on a level with terran units in terms of supplyefficiency. So if you pick the right units f.e. Infestor/baneling vs Marine/Hellions, Broodlords vs Tanks/Thor, corruptor/infestor vs air units you are extremly fine with going 200 vs 200 (or even 220 vs 200 with overmaxtrick). | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On June 23 2011 12:13 GypsyBeast wrote: i have been tooling around a little bit with hydra drops in ZvT. it can be good because hydras are good for raping mineral lines but your drops can be sniped very easily by rines Hydralisks are so slow they cannot chase down workers. Their DPS is not as fast as banelings or zerglings, so can't even suprise them. Hydralisks are terrible for eco harass... you can drop twice as many banelings as hydras for the same price, and deal a ton more damage. | ||
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UberOverlord
United States29 Posts
On June 21 2011 01:26 TheSambassador wrote: Obviously, we know that hydras can crush Protoss gateway armies... and Hydra drops have been pretty effective vs toss, but what about other uses? I'm mainly interested in Hydras in ZvT. As far as I know, pure roach is the still the proper counter to toss gateway units. Use burrow/tunneling claws to go under force fields. A hydralisks DPS/cost ratio is only about 20% higher than the roach early game and drops to about 5% higher than roach DPS/cost ratio once 3/3 upgrades kick in. On the other hand, roaches have 270% higher hp/cost ratio and a native armor point. Also, hydralisks are super slow for a zerg unit which makes them poor harrassment units. The rest of your army ends up waiting for the hydralisks to catch up before engaging. Basically, hydralisks should only be on your mind if you have COMPLETELY run out of other options. In fact, hydralisks are so bad, I believe standard PvZ right now includes getting an early stargate to force hydralisks and potentially stop a third zerg base. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
ONLY get 5 hydras. ONLY keep them on creep. i guess that means you could only use them for defense but whatever. maybe it could be lategame defense when most of the map is creeped up the idea here is you let your hydras deal their insane DPS and you protect them and make sure they dont die you cant deny that cost-for-cost, and food-for-food, 5 hydras deal very high amounts of DPS. pretty much as much as 3 charged voidrays, but it doesnt need to be charged they are charged instantly is that high dps worth the apm-micro investment of actually micro'ing your 5 hydras to keep them in the back and alive?? thats another question. and this use is only applicable late game where you can afford to spend 500/250 on 5 hydras to output some insane extra DPS for your army | ||
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rancidmeat
Canada20 Posts
I vote that roach speed is left behind, metabolic boost is shot up to 150/150 and it affects all zerg ground. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On June 24 2011 15:23 UberOverlord wrote: As far as I know, pure roach is the still the proper counter to toss gateway units. Use burrow/tunneling claws to go under force fields. A hydralisks DPS/cost ratio is only about 20% higher than the roach early game and drops to about 5% higher than roach DPS/cost ratio once 3/3 upgrades kick in. On the other hand, roaches have 270% higher hp/cost ratio and a native armor point. Also, hydralisks are super slow for a zerg unit which makes them poor harrassment units. The rest of your army ends up waiting for the hydralisks to catch up before engaging. Basically, hydralisks should only be on your mind if you have COMPLETELY run out of other options. In fact, hydralisks are so bad, I believe standard PvZ right now includes getting an early stargate to force hydralisks and potentially stop a third zerg base. This is incorrect. While mass roaches can hold some gateway pushes, hydras are more or less essential if you're faced with massive 6+ gate/immo timings. There have been countless examples at recent tourneys (DreamHack, Columbus, etc). Hydras eat gateways compositions and open up strong pre-colossi timings (see many of Ret's games for baller examples). | ||
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Syphon8
Canada298 Posts
Hydras 4 shot SCVs, 5 shot MULES, and cost less gas than Mutalisks. A two pronged 5 Hydra drop could hit MUCH faster (It's only 3 seconds difference for Spire/Muta as opposed to Ventral Sacs, but the decreased gas cost must be taken into account.) than Mutas for mineral harass on a 2 basing Terran, and can be continued the entire game, while the lower gas investment (10xHydra + Drops + Speed + Den = 900, whereas 10xMuta + Spire = 1200) means you have an easier time transitioning to Roach/Infestor or a safer time following up with Mutaling into BL once you've secured that economic advantage. | ||
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Spiders
United States86 Posts
On June 24 2011 16:45 Syphon8 wrote: A thought: Could you use Hydras in a Hydra/Ling/Baneling opener with an analogy to Muta/Ling/Baneling? Hydras 4 shot SCVs, 5 shot MULES, and cost less gas than Mutalisks. A two pronged 5 Hydra drop could hit MUCH faster (It's only 3 seconds difference for Spire/Muta as opposed to Ventral Sacs, but the decreased gas cost must be taken into account.) than Mutas for mineral harass on a 2 basing Terran, and can be continued the entire game, while the lower gas investment (10xHydra + Drops + Speed + Den = 900, whereas 10xMuta + Spire = 1200) means you have an easier time transitioning to Roach/Infestor or a safer time following up with Mutaling into BL once you've secured that economic advantage. Mutas have other advantages like cleaning up the remains of a push of tanks and medivacs, stopping and chasing down drops, map control, forcing terran to stim and waste medivac energy easily picking off addons and other stuff im probably forgetting to mention. I don't really see any reason to go hydra drops over muta since the hydras will be pretty useless aside from harassing mineral lines | ||
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UberOverlord
United States29 Posts
On June 24 2011 16:37 IPA wrote: This is incorrect. While mass roaches can hold some gateway pushes, hydras are more or less essential if you're faced with massive 6+ gate/immo timings. There have been countless examples at recent tourneys (DreamHack, Columbus, etc). Hydras eat gateways compositions and open up strong pre-colossi timings (see many of Ret's games for baller examples). For one thing, gate/immo timings are rare and only come when a protoss spots pure roach compositions. I was also talking about gateway pushes, not gateway + robo pushes. Also MC v Idra MLG, there was a blink stalker+imm timing push and Idra chose to use pure roach and infestors, no hydras. If it's not too much trouble, please link me to some of Ret's games where he got hydras against pure gateway compositions, I've looked through several and he seems to favor mutalisks. | ||
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PrideTV
Vietnam434 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3524 Posts
If u manage to lower his siege tank count significantly, try experimenting with hydra switches. | ||
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
On June 24 2011 16:05 rancidmeat wrote: Hydras vs T are too fragile to produce any good results. It takes 3 shots from a tank to kill a roach it also takes 3 tank shots to kill a hyrda. Ive had nothing but excellent results using roach hydra with baneling drops vs terran. The only time I dont like that unit comp is when terran is going pure bio. | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On June 24 2011 15:20 Xapti wrote: Hydralisks are so slow they cannot chase down workers. Their DPS is not as fast as banelings or zerglings, so can't even suprise them. Hydralisks are terrible for eco harass... you can drop twice as many banelings as hydras for the same price, and deal a ton more damage. Hydras are better at econ harass in certain instances because of their range. Lalush showed this in a recent game on Xel Naga caverns, where 1 hydra on the cliff above the sunken 3rd base got about 12 worker kills. Hydras are better at sniping workers protected by Planetary fortresses as well, because they can hold position out of range of the PF, yet still snipe the workers and the refineries. Roaches can do the same, but they kill workers far slower, and must get closer. Hydras also excel when used as part of a nydus worm harassment attack due to the fact that 1 hydra unloads as fast as 1 zergling/ 1 roach, yet the hydra has more DPS. Once unloaded due to their range Hydra can snipe buildings that are just out of tank/bunker/PF range more effectively than roach/zergling. For these same reasons hydra are good in overlord drop harass. Consider this.. You are playing on Tal Darim altar, and the terran has a remote base protected by turrets and a planetary fortress. That's a pretty strong defense against muta/ling/bane, but dropping (or nydusing) just 4 hydra can shut the whole base without incurring any losses. Another use for Hydra in ZvT would be unburrowing to intercept drops. Six +2 Hydra can take out a medivac in two volleys. Two volleys takes 1.66 game seconds. A medivac can only move range 4.15 in 1.66 game seconds. Unburrowing takes 1 - 1.5 seconds (variable) for a hydra. What this means is it is impossible for a medivac to escape if the hydras unburrow immediately underneath it, even if there is a cliff nearby (medivac can't get out of range before 2 volleys occur). | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On June 24 2011 18:27 UberOverlord wrote: For one thing, gate/immo timings are rare and only come when a protoss spots pure roach compositions. I was also talking about gateway pushes, not gateway + robo pushes. Also MC v Idra MLG, there was a blink stalker+imm timing push and Idra chose to use pure roach and infestors, no hydras. If it's not too much trouble, please link me to some of Ret's games where he got hydras against pure gateway compositions, I've looked through several and he seems to favor mutalisks. Ret v Tyler @ MLG Moon v MC game 1 @ MLG Others I am forgetting.. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On June 23 2011 12:13 GypsyBeast wrote: i have been tooling around a little bit with hydra drops in ZvT. it can be good because hydras are good for raping mineral lines but your drops can be sniped very easily by rines Again, it comes down to that fact that there's always a better alternative for Hydras. Baneling drops are betterbecause banelings are more readily available, the drop is way cheaper, has the potential to do far more damage, and gives your opponent less time to react. | ||
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