EPTDps is of course not everything. Hydras can kill a few lings before the lings were able to land at least a single hit. One could try to calculate a normalized dps value with considering the time for the enemy melee unit to close in. But the normalized value only works for a particular unit vs unit ratio, other ratios yield in other normalized dps values.
[D] Viable Hydralisk Uses (ZvT) - Page 6
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
Dps is of course not everything. Hydras can kill a few lings before the lings were able to land at least a single hit. One could try to calculate a normalized dps value with considering the time for the enemy melee unit to close in. But the normalized value only works for a particular unit vs unit ratio, other ratios yield in other normalized dps values. | ||
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jdsowa
405 Posts
As to your second point: yes, dps isn't everything--but in the case of drops, usually the drones/buildings aren't hitting back at you. Therefore, pure DPS is the primary factor. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On June 21 2011 23:32 jdsowa wrote: Pure dps means little if the unit lasts only for a very short time. If I attack with early lings, the enemy workers do strike back. If I can attack buildings while he does not strike back, the game is probably won anyway so my dps is not important.I did not give any special weight to gas, but if I did, that would mean that zerglings are an even better value versus the hydra than I already stated. As to your second point: yes, dps isn't everything--but in the case of drops, usually the drones/buildings aren't hitting back at you. Therefore, pure DPS is the primary factor. The dps value plays an important role in the consideration "how much damage can I deal in a given window of time" but hp-to-cost ratio and attack range also play a very large factor in this formula. Even unit speed – since it is often possible to surround units with zerglings, I can use them to actually deal damage. But only so many lings can attack at the same time, the rest gets no marine leg to bite but is under fire and can die before he bit a marine leg even once  In certain situations you are right, lets say the enemy army is away and you could drop some lings into his base, then you have a window of time were dps is the sole important factor. But generally I consider the usefulness of units and how conveniently I can tech it to decide if I use it as main attack force or not. For example lings are limited to attack ground units only. Hydras also can save you from air raids. However Mondragon can build roaches versus Protoss air and wins  | ||
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
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TheFavorite1
United States27 Posts
Against a terran zergs already have plenty of uses for gas: infestors, banelings, and air. Hydralisks are just too expensive to be worth it. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
Hydras were (obviously) the most efficient worker killers when you sneak some into the back of expansions, but were lackluster against everything else really. Even in brood war, hydras really weren't the hottest stuff except against goliaths; against M&M they still didn't really hold their own that well, mutas were far more effective and you mainly got hydras for the lurkers. There really isn't much of a place for hydras in the zvt matchup. They get chewed up by standard marine tank, they dont come early enough to stop early bio pushes, and overall just dont handle themselves very well. | ||
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Tatari
United States1179 Posts
Honestly, even in ZvP Hydras rarely find any purpose. At best, a Zerg could research drop tech, and pray their Hydras do econ damage as they get dropped in a mineral line. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
Certainly not as a mainstay unit, but I'd much rather have 8 Hydras to shut down Terran harass than 4 Mutas. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
It's maybe possible to get some Hydras just to be safe against Drops/Air, but again, it's much better to go sth. else - Mutas... there really are no good reasons to use Hydras in ZvT anymore and in ZvP, there are some very Narrow timings where they're good, but if you've scouted/anticipated wrong and he goes Collossi or the timing-rush doesn't work out, they're crappy. Hydras are IMHO just a terrible Unit and they get used less and less - too bad, I kinda like them too, just cuz they give a nice safe feeling in the stomach (being Anti-Air and not bad DMG-dealers). | ||
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PeaNuT_T
Sweden326 Posts
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_Major
United States107 Posts
Why? One small mistake, like getting caught not looking, when relying on Infestors or Mutas can usually end the game right there. Here's the gist, and I invite anyone to post replays: 1. Spanishiwa type start - early map control is not your objective. 2. Spread creep aggressively; use crawlers to support your creep expansions and control the wide spaces you want to engage in 3. Upgrade and build ling/bling/hydra; continue to expand behind your contain. 4. Evolve into whatever the appropriate counter; use Nydus to block / take out their attempts at expanding. Ling/bling/hydra/spine is economical on larvae and resources, and keeps you better prepared for timing pushes than more gas intensive builds would. By having spines out in a containing manner, instead of solely a defensive one, you are forcing the Terran to go air or slow their push as they use tanks to clear the way. Hydra's are pretty good againast air =p. In the case that they try to seige you on the ground, the Zerg's objective is to force the Terran to push out into the open as they strategically retreat. Terran leapfrogs forwards, Zerg leapfrogs backwards with the ability to spring forward when they advance too far -- otherwise known as the "rope a dope". The similar speed that hydras and banelings move at make them much easier to control than having to juggle the variances that come with mutas, lings, and speed roaches. On Creep/Off creep: - Baneling 3.25 (3.8) / 2.5 (2.9531) - Hydra 3.375 / 2.25 - Zergling 3.83903 (6.10883) / 2.9531 (4.6991) Zerglings are the flanking units. The banelings and Hydras will obliterate what comes their way but will most likely result in some sort of army trade. Now you should be free to reestablish your spine position with spare drones and literally mass whatever unit you want fully upgraded to keep them in their hole. Well that's my theory anyway. I'll see how it goes, today. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
Myself, I have yet to truly incorporate them, but I think if you do, you need to be better at preventing drops without mutas, and give up mutas for hydras instead, something I'm still not comfortable with, as I prefer to medivac snipe via muta interception. But once bio unloads, my mutas become useless unless in crushingly larger numbers, and I have to retreat. Idk, hydras have potential, though realize your army will be slower, and you'll need to be better with olord mechanics, drops, tumors, and playing more defensively. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
On June 21 2011 11:25 peidongyang wrote: unfortunately hydras dont have stim and thus die to every terran ground unit with the exception of the scv and mule. vs marines - hydras get owned horribly here once you have stim, combat shields and medivac, which is basically all the time. vs marauders - hydras do well, but with stim, medivacs and marine support hydras get melted. vs tanks - trololol vs thors - they do decently but thors are usually supported with either tanks which trololol hydras or bioball which beats hydras vs ghosts - pew pew pew vs hellions - hydras do really well against hellions but you're probably never gonna get mass hydra vs hellion on creep unless the enemy is metagaming you when you're going ling heavy and mass hellions. in this case you probably win but then the opponent has tanks so hydras go lulz hydralisks basically suck because they don't do shit offcreep and have shit hp, making them take infinite damage vs most unit compositions that terrans typically make TLO would argue with you that hydra dps matches stimmed bio dps. | ||
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Sanitys
Canada126 Posts
The only potential place I could see them would be 4-6 to drop in mineral lines but even then your investing time, and money that could be better used on something else. Bane drops would be cheaper and more effective anyways in my opinion. So unless their is some weird crazy meta game shift I don't think hydras will see a place in zvt. Even if the meta game were to shift, I am still having trouble thinking of a unit composition from terran that would make me want to have hydras. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On June 23 2011 01:21 DuncanIdaho wrote: TLO would argue with you that hydra dps matches stimmed bio dps. Does anyone above silver league only make pure bio as Terran in TvZ? The problem with using hydras is that Terran always gets tanks, and we all know how that goes for the hydras. | ||
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
What you can do on some maps is: - Drop down or just move 2-4 hydras behind in the mineral line (like some protoss do with stalkers). It will kill off SCV's, turrets, and be out of range of the planetary, and can attack / kill off an orbital if it's way out of position. It does however mean that you pretty much: - Aren't going mutas. - Allready researched drop. Otherwise I think it costs too much to get the tech, or you could instead just harass with mutas. Also, I guess, if you go the superfast lair / ultra build: - Ling - Infestors - Ultras With just melee and armor for ground upgrades, and neural parasite / fungal growth, a few hydras can be okay to kill medivacs and banshees, while still keeping your ground focus, so you don't end up facing 10+ medivacs late game because you always killed off the ground army but never the medivacs. ... but even then, I think going corruptors and just have 3-4 in your army following it around, until you have too much resources and can go for broods, is better. | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
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Saishuuheiki
United States188 Posts
While they may not be as mineral/gas efficient at taking down bio as roaches, they are better in terms of food cost. If you mix half-roach half-hydra, your army will be much stronger vs most terran compositions for the same food cost. This can be important mid and late game when you max your army. It can be better to top yourself off with hydras rather than roaches. Even vs mutas, if a terran has turrets and thors all over and are turtled tight, it may be better to get hydras for fighting or dropping. | ||
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