EPT[D] Viable Hydralisk Uses (ZvT) - Page 7
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aclockworkballer
United States15 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 23 2011 01:21 DuncanIdaho wrote: TLO would argue with you that hydra dps matches stimmed bio dps. and that is simply not true, you can simply calculate it... hydras lose in any comparison vs stimmed marines (costwise-dps, supplywise-dps, costwise-battle, supplywise-battle), not to mention offcreep speed. btw. I have been working on a formula to calculate "High Supply Strenght" a number that should represent a units strenght when massed. It doesn't include a way to measure splash yet, but I do work with dps/supply, armor, life/supply, size, range and supply and the numbers have been tested for some of the calculated units in 200vs200supply monobattles and I think if you put the numbers in order, they are pretty precise in fortelling a monobattles outcome. (assuming the units can hit each other) so if anyone is interested, I can post some stuff... | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
Cost wise a hydra is about 2-4 marines. Supply wise hydra is 2 marines. But numbers wise--hydra deals more damage than marines. | ||
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Exstasy
United Kingdom393 Posts
(this is clearly intended by their speed on and off creep) so with it's speed increase on creep, what units can Hydra's Kite? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 23 2011 04:43 lorkac wrote: Hydra has the same attack speed as a marine for double the damage. Which means a stimmed marine deals 75% of a hydras damage. Cost wise a hydra is about 2-4 marines. Supply wise hydra is 2 marines. But numbers wise--hydra deals more damage than marines. you can look up any numbers in Liquipedia (DPS in not everything): Marine: DPS: 7 DPS stimmed: 10.5 DPS per simplified costs: 0,14 DPS per simplified costs stimmed: 0,21 Hydralisk: DPS: 14.5 DPS per supply: 7.25 DPS per simplified costs: 0,096666667 | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
That does only work on creep, but u will attack on creep anyway.... not that this strategy is pretty strong or what, but it might be handy | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On June 21 2011 01:26 TheSambassador wrote: Obviously, we know that hydras can crush Protoss gateway armies... and Hydra drops have been pretty effective vs toss, I disagree. If you want I can explain to you WHY hydras do not crush gateway armies, but in my opinion that's your burden of proof, s I won't jump to it unless you ask. On June 21 2011 01:26 TheSambassador wrote: I'm mainly interested in Hydras in ZvT. So far, in my play, the only time that I get hydras is against 2-port banshee, and even then you usually can just hold off with spores and queens. ... Any other ideas? Has anybody seen Hydras used effectively in ZvT? No. Hydras are junk ZvT. Marines and hellions and siege tanks dominate hydras, and thors and banshees can even do decent against them with micro/repair/cloak/etc. One of the 2 only uses I see for hydralisks is an optional route to go vs protoss if they FFE stargate (or possibly any other stargate play), and even then it's not necessary. The other is an option in late game ZvP, adding a few hydralisks works well, since it maximizes potential damage dealing, since they have the longest ground to ground range for zerg. Storm is a bit of a problem, but not much because this is at a point where you'll have broodlords and ultralisks as well, and the majority of the army would be units like those, along with roaches and zerglings and corruptors and infestors. The storms could hurt the hydras, but because there's so many different units at different ranges, and because there's not a lot of hydras, and because the hydras can be microed, it's not a big deal. And with regards to this IMO somewhat off-topic discussion about hydralisk's stats, one of the big things about hydralisks are their poor attack upgrade. Some of you are comparing marines with hydralisks— marines have +1 upgrade to their 6 damage, making for a 17% DPS increase per upgrade. Hydras have HALF that 17% per upgrade, because their base damage is 12, but they still get only +1 damage per upgrade. Another pretty big thing is that hydralisks attacks are projectiles that take time to hit, marines' are instant. | ||
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IMLyte
Canada714 Posts
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hungraa
United States25 Posts
Queens-Spread screep/tank damage Hydras-deal damage, creep spread grant mobility It was pretty effective in close positions. Tanks = gg though X_X | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
They have their place, like against Mass Air and maybe BioMarauder and ThorMech but other than that I don´t think they have a place here. They are still good units and you can use them but its not really optimal IMO. | ||
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GrapeD
Canada679 Posts
In all seriousness I havn't found a use for them thats better than mutas or roaches. I think it may be good to try to counter lots of air based play like 2port banshee but queens do better and are cheaper. I dont really see a use for them in zvt tbh. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On June 23 2011 02:27 aclockworkballer wrote: I watched ViBe's stream the other day and he went mass hydra versus mass Thor. It was a strange game where they both lost their bases, but he won. neural parasite would be nice... | ||
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Kinetik_Inferno
United States1431 Posts
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200899 | ||
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aquanda
United States477 Posts
On June 21 2011 01:34 BinxyBrown wrote: VS Marines - Hydras can win but it isn't cost effective, also marines will scale better with ups VS Tanks - lol VS Thors - they do pretty well here, unless there is any other type of support VS Hellions - they do fine until the hellions get on top of them, but roaches do better are available sooner, and cost less. VS Marauders - Hydras do great here as well, not quite as good as lings, but I could see hydra ling being just as acceptable as ling baneling vs just MM, maybe MMM. Once you throw tanks into the mix it gets really bad, also hydras drastically slow your army movement off creep so they can become a liability when you need to do counters or run bys. VS Banshees - Hydras do find once again, just not as well as queens or mutas that also serve other purposes like spreading creep or harassing/scouting VS Medivacs - Hydras would be nice for sniping drops after they have unloaded, but nothing queens and ling couldn't take care of almost as well, however at 50 gas each they would cut deep into mutas not to mention the cost of hydra range and the den it self. Mutas are a better answer for deflecting drops in transit or killing drops that have already started to leave your base, and are still decent at drops in progress. VS BC - they are bad, corruptors hold this down, another reason to choose spire over hydra den, although most terran dont make this unit anyways. that leaves a hand full of unused units that aren't really problems in the match up yet anyways. Also anything you would use hydras to counter is probably countered harder by either mutas or infestors, which is actually pretty true vs toss as well. | ||
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defaspect
United States21 Posts
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_Major
United States107 Posts
On June 23 2011 00:40 _Major wrote: I would have to try this out first; but at my level (gold/plat), I'm pretty confident that a creep push strategy would have more consistent victories than the current reliance on infestors or mutas. Why? One small mistake, like getting caught not looking, when relying on Infestors or Mutas can usually end the game right there. Here's the gist, and I invite anyone to post replays: 1. Spanishiwa type start - early map control is not your objective. 2. Spread creep aggressively; use crawlers to support your creep expansions and control the wide spaces you want to engage in 3. Upgrade and build ling/bling/hydra; continue to expand behind your contain. 4. Evolve into whatever the appropriate counter; use Nydus to block / take out their attempts at expanding. Ling/bling/hydra/spine is economical on larvae and resources, and keeps you better prepared for timing pushes than more gas intensive builds would. By having spines out in a containing manner, instead of solely a defensive one, you are forcing the Terran to go air or slow their push as they use tanks to clear the way. Hydra's are pretty good againast air =p. In the case that they try to seige you on the ground, the Zerg's objective is to force the Terran to push out into the open as they strategically retreat. Terran leapfrogs forwards, Zerg leapfrogs backwards with the ability to spring forward when they advance too far -- otherwise known as the "rope a dope". The similar speed that hydras and banelings move at make them much easier to control than having to juggle the variances that come with mutas, lings, and speed roaches. On Creep/Off creep: - Baneling 3.25 (3.8) / 2.5 (2.9531) - Hydra 3.375 / 2.25 - Zergling 3.83903 (6.10883) / 2.9531 (4.6991) Zerglings are the flanking units. The banelings and Hydras will obliterate what comes their way but will most likely result in some sort of army trade. Now you should be free to reestablish your spine position with spare drones and literally mass whatever unit you want fully upgraded to keep them in their hole. Well that's my theory anyway. I'll see how it goes, today. Well one thing is for sure, Xel'Naga Caverns is not the map to try this on. I found Hydras to be ridiculously ineffective when trying to get my 3rd up. Also, once Terran has a saturated 2nd base,if they stick to bio you NEED infestors to stay off your heels. Hydras can't keep up with the sheer number of units that can be pumped out, and Marauders actually become more effective believe it or not. They soak up the Hydra DPS while marines come into range to pop hydras. If Queens only lost energy based on the amount healed, this combo might actually work...c'mon Blizz. | ||
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GypsyBeast
Canada630 Posts
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Atexis
United States6 Posts
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