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Lol, back when i had low amp and couldn't fully utilize Mutalisks, i always tried roach hydra vs Terran.
As you might think it never really worked.
However in the beta, TLO + Show Spoiler +came back from behind vs CathonLuck on LT using purely Hydra, Infestor. It was the HDH tournament. Cathon was using opened reaper pressure in to marauder hellion. I remember that game so well, because i had just played about 1.5 months in the beta as Protoss and Zerg. That game was one of the ones that pushed me over the edge to commit to Zerg as a race.
Also i've herd myths that Ultra / Hydra is a good late game composition vs T.
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The best use I can think of for Hydras is as a late game massing unit.
The idea would be that you'd have a big army trade in the middle of the map and then zerg would remax with a whole bunch of hydras and cracklings. Especially if you just traded an infestor/broodlord army, terran is going to have ghosts and vikings and those are basically worthless against hydra ling.
Also, Hydras can do a lot of damage in small numbers, meaning you can throw 4 to 8 of them at each of the terran's expos at the same time. Even if they have planetaries, you just sit them behind the minerals or deny gas mining while your main assault hits the front. As the hydra wave dies, you slowly replenish with those nasty hive units again.
If you did get ranged upgrades, they also work very nicely with infestors and ultras. Mid game though, I think making hydras is terrible. You only really want to be using them in situations where you don't need to be cost effective.
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no point in getting hydra for defense, queens are far far more cost effective, and have better range.
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has anyone tried ling/hydra against terran?
i think you could max relatively quickly on this composition and just try to overwhelm the T. ling/hydra through the early and mid game and when you max start using your extra gas to turn the ling swarm into banelings.
im talking 1+ macro hatches and really going all out. 100% of your gas (minus ups) to hydras, and all excess minerals to lings.
massing hydras in bw is why i play zerg in sc2. never building them makes me sad.
even zvz if i see my opponent going roach hydra i just make pure roach and win =(
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I tried to think of ways to use the Hydra, until I realized that I can't afford to have any 80 hp, unarmored units taking up 2 supply in my army, mid/late game. You could use them for drops, but zerglings have the best dps/cost and dps/supply in the game, so why bother. The range of 6 (*after* the ridiculous upgrade), is pointless vT, unless you've got 20+ roaches in your front line. HP and armor are more important than dps, imho, which is why 80 supply of thors will destroy 120 supply of zerglings without losing a single unit.
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philibird queens cant snipe a medivac fast enough and cant get off creep which greatly reduces their effectiveness against drops.
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actually sometimes i use it on the big maps with drop. if you can manage to do that you can kill some core buildings or lots of workers, but you need to study a lot and that terran is supposed not to go all in  so scout it so hard. other than that, i dont think it would be viable as some commenters mentioned.
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For me you can sum it up this way:
What's the use of an expensive glass cannon in a game with banelings in it?
Hydras would be a viable alternative to banelings if they were re-usable - but they aren't. Typically they're consumed in the firefight just like banelings - and unlike banelings they don't sit around being lots and lots of useful zerglings helping you get the gas geysers you need to mass them.
Just as a mental exercise, imagine hydra were a morph of a roach, for 25/25 just like banelings. They'd probably see a lot more use because you'd be able to get them when you wanted them, without being desperately vulnerable in the meantime.
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Hydras are only useful in BW ZvT versus mech play, and I guess you will occasionally see them used defensively vs standard bio if terran catches zerg before lurker aspect is research or before the hydras have a chance to morph, but that won't happen in high level play.
As someone said earlier, they are just too slow off creep. All terrans are getting better at minimizing creep spread and there are faster, beefier units such as roaches that take the same damage from tanks while taking substantially less damage against marines, Hellions, and thors.
Honestly, I'd like to see Hydras use more too, but I don't think it will happen unless they get a speed upgrade or some other buff that makes them a better choice than others. Until then though, Hydras seem to have found their place in ZvZ and ZvP.
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The only time I could really see them being cost effective is with infestors vs a low tank/high marine count. Since with range and fungal they can wreck lots of marines with minimal losses if handled well. But there is rarely a Terran that doesn't get lots of tanks.
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On June 21 2011 01:26 TheSambassador wrote:
Now we have Hydras in SC2... and they seem so underused. Most people would say that there are good reasons for that... but I don't really want to have a balance discussion on them. I'm interested in viable uses of the Hydralisk. It doesn't seem "right" that one unit can have no practical role in an entire matchup.
It's perfectly fine that a certain unit isn't used in a particular matchup. This happened in brood war, and it's true in Starcraft II as well.Each race is so different that things that are good vs one race couldn't possibly be good against another race (think of irradiate from BW).
Hydras are only good against a terran who goes mass non-capital air i.e. mass viking/banshee. Any terran army with marines and/or tanks will shred hydras. And almost every TvZ involves tanks & marines. Igniter hellions are also very good against hydras, and thors are at the very least even with them.
Show me a TvZ where marines & tanks are not used, and you might have a case for a situation where hydras would be useful.
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On June 21 2011 01:40 archangel2 wrote:
Uhh I guess they're good against marauders and banshees.. but mutas are better :D
I read somewhere that Thors 2-shot hydras, so I don't think hydras would be that great vs Thors?
They used to one-shot them in Beta as long as they had 1 attack upgrade. Guess why they got changed to less damage per saliva :D
Hydras really lost their role in TvZ so badly, it's kinda sad  But almost every single Terran unit seems to be just made to counter them. Even with the recent upcoming of researching drop almost every match, there still is no place for Hydra.
Maybe there will be some niche strategies that go with hydra drops one day, because in a very few situations they could actually do well. Dropped lings are easily defended in tight terran bases, but Hydras could deal a lot of damage there. But eventually Banelings can do almost the same, often even faster than hydras, and more safely.
Until a Hydra drop would all be timed out very precisely, there is no room for the unit. They just soak up the gas important units (Bling, Infestor, Muta) need.
On June 21 2011 06:23 Umpteen wrote:
Just as a mental exercise, imagine hydra were a morph of a roach, for 25/25 just like banelings. They'd probably see a lot more use because you'd be able to get them when you wanted them, without being desperately vulnerable in the meantime.
Nope, I don't see that beeing used very often. Maybe in a very few situational moments where one thinks "now a bit more range would be cool!" (you see, here this model is purely advantageous based on the fact taht they could be morphed everywhere), but apart from that, raaaarely.
Also, not even Roaches appear a lot in ZvT, and if they do, Zerg still wants gas for Bling/Muta/Infestor instead of spending it into a semi useful roach upgrade.
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On June 21 2011 01:43 Synystyr wrote:
Hydras are only really good in ZvT when you need to get a quick squad of AA units out to deal with something. Also if the opponent is going really heavy Marauders, you could technically go Hydras and soft counter them. However mass lings or mutas would be better there, so Hydras really dont have a niche anywhere =[
They need more health and speed >_<
Why not just muta if they are going marauders......... mutas HARD counter marauders :lol: >_>;;
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Don't use hydras in ZvT... they get destroyed by tanks, and aren't cost effective against either marines or thors. And they are somewhat of a gas heavy unit too - better to use that for upgrades and mutas / infestors that are useful for harassment or general army comp
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On June 21 2011 05:43 Vaporized wrote:
has anyone tried ling/hydra against terran?
i think you could max relatively quickly on this composition and just try to overwhelm the T. ling/hydra through the early and mid game and when you max start using your extra gas to turn the ling swarm into banelings.
im talking 1+ macro hatches and really going all out. 100% of your gas (minus ups) to hydras, and all excess minerals to lings.
massing hydras in bw is why i play zerg in sc2. never building them makes me sad.
even zvz if i see my opponent going roach hydra i just make pure roach and win =(
i just played 8ish games (custom and ladder, rank 1 plat so i suck) doing the strat i describe and i won all of them (against both T and P, zvz i do other things). i opened spanishiwa, got a macro hatch, and did triple evo upgrades asap (all the rest of my gas towards hydras). with so many lings taking a quick third is relatively ez.
some things i beat:
thor + tank - this was the first game i played and probably the closest (still wasnt that close). thors do massacre hydras, but hydras can dish out some pain too. i lost to a very similiar build yesterday going ling/roach. roaches just dont have the dps to kill thors in a timely manner. whereas target fire 15-20 hydras at a thor and it melts.
MM + tank - unless they have enough tanks to one shot clumps of hydras (maybe 6+?), hydras do all right. either the lings or the hydras will have a chance to do their thing. another HUGE plus was that with a few hydras in my mineral lines his drops were COMPLETELY nullified, down to losing the medivac also.
i played a few (2) protosses and they both did the same thing. zealot\sentry\VR. neither of the games featured very good FF's.
depending on timing i might lose MOST of my units during the first engagement but on 3 bases and macro hatch you can make enough to swarm them. in most of these games after crushing their push they saw how many units i had reinforced with and GG'd.
here are the replays. dont expect pro level play, just a look at how something like this works.
http://replayfu.com/r/H9P60q - zvp
http://replayfu.com/r/CGkGqm - zvt he makes a huge mistake with his tanks, but im not sure it would have mattered. basically he sends them towards my base by themselves and i kill them with lings. i dont think it would have mattered because he has to unsiege at some point to get to my base, and i had nice creep spread. if he turtled and tried to take the gold i was going to get drop.
http://replayfu.com/r/BmPGKn - zvt he goes fairly standard marine tank. like all these games the opponent wasnt good, but you can see how hydras can take on tanks. they take the same number of shots to kill as a roach, but do much more dps.
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It seems so inefficient to use hydras though. There's a chance that it would work in some scenarios in ZvT, but there's also a better, more efficient way to do it. Plus hydras limit your mobility so incredibly much. The terran could just drop at multiple locations and you would have to spread yourself very thin to try to cover all of your expansions, leaving yourself open for a big push. It's also very costly to use as a mass unit, and will eat up all of your gas, limiting your options and upgrades.
Versus bio: Lings, Banelings and Infestors handle them incredibly well. Not to mention the map control and ability to lock down drops with fungal growth. What you would need heavy food counts in hydralisks to accomplish, you could reach as well in way less food from infestors/lings.
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On June 21 2011 07:47 Vaporized wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 21 2011 05:43 Vaporized wrote:
has anyone tried ling/hydra against terran?
i think you could max relatively quickly on this composition and just try to overwhelm the T. ling/hydra through the early and mid game and when you max start using your extra gas to turn the ling swarm into banelings.
im talking 1+ macro hatches and really going all out. 100% of your gas (minus ups) to hydras, and all excess minerals to lings.
massing hydras in bw is why i play zerg in sc2. never building them makes me sad.
even zvz if i see my opponent going roach hydra i just make pure roach and win =( i just played 8ish games (custom and ladder, rank 1 plat so i suck) doing the strat i describe and i won all of them (against both T and P, zvz i do other things). i opened spanishiwa, got a macro hatch, and did triple evo upgrades asap (all the rest of my gas towards hydras). with so many lings taking a quick third is relatively ez. some things i beat: thor + tank - this was the first game i played and probably the closest (still wasnt that close). thors do massacre hydras, but hydras can dish out some pain too. i lost to a very similiar build yesterday going ling/roach. roaches just dont have the dps to kill thors in a timely manner. whereas target fire 15-20 hydras at a thor and it melts. MM + tank - unless they have enough tanks to one shot clumps of hydras (maybe 6+?), hydras do all right. either the lings or the hydras will have a chance to do their thing. another HUGE plus was that with a few hydras in my mineral lines his drops were COMPLETELY nullified, down to losing the medivac also. i played a few (2) protosses and they both did the same thing. zealot\sentry\VR. neither of the games featured very good FF's. depending on timing i might lose MOST of my units during the first engagement but on 3 bases and macro hatch you can make enough to swarm them. in most of these games after crushing their push they saw how many units i had reinforced with and GG'd. here are the replays. dont expect pro level play, just a look at how something like this works. http://replayfu.com/r/H9P60q - zvp http://replayfu.com/r/CGkGqm - zvt he makes a huge mistake with his tanks, but im not sure it would have mattered. basically he sends them towards my base by themselves and i kill them with lings. i dont think it would have mattered because he has to unsiege at some point to get to my base, and i had nice creep spread. if he turtled and tried to take the gold i was going to get drop. http://replayfu.com/r/BmPGKn - zvt he goes fairly standard marine tank. like all these games the opponent wasnt good, but you can see how hydras can take on tanks. they take the same number of shots to kill as a roach, but do much more dps.
While the effort is much appreciated, there's really no point in uploading platinum league replays since plenty of nonstandard builds work at that level.
On June 21 2011 03:01 -Zoda- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 02:29 Exley wrote:
Roach/hydra is better vs. thor/hellion than pure roach. I'm a bot surprised of this, I think you need to puts you hydras behind the roaches or they'll get demolished by the hellions.
Obviously; you will always want hydras in the back line.
On June 21 2011 03:12 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 02:29 Exley wrote:
Roach/hydra is better vs. thor/hellion than pure roach. Massing roaches and allocating your gas to upgrades, infestors, and hive tech is a far better idea vs hellion / thor than usingit on hydras imo.
I almost always go roach/infestor vs. thor/hellion but I've played 4 games on ladder winning with roach/hydra at 1k+ masters level. I don't think thor/hellion is good midgame composition since it can lose to roach/infestor, roach/hydra, and even muta/ling.
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im not going to say that ling hydra is viable in zvt at all. i dont know. i beat some scrubs today and need to play some more games.
about upgrades i had enough gas for triple evo chambers constantly upgrading, and also i got ol speed, and hydra range in every game.
infestors do completely own bio, even cost effectively which is a rare treat for a zerg but they are very expensive in their own right, and 1 misclick will cost you the game. not to mention with hydras that medivac will not escape if they drop. drives me nuts when medivacs make it out alive
whats wrong with heavy food investment in hydras, you gotta spend your food somewhere? my ideal scenario for a zvx is to outmacro my opponent, and unleash the swarm. i like to macro (micro is the worst part of my game, along with scouting :/ ).
none of the games went to t3, but 170 supply of ling/hydra with brood lords sounds like a nice composition to end games. the broods force the tanks to unseige and then you run in with ling hydra. you could even drop and completely avoid tanks.
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On June 21 2011 05:50 jdsowa wrote:
I tried to think of ways to use the Hydra, until I realized that I can't afford to have any 80 hp, unarmored units taking up 2 supply in my army, mid/late game. You could use them for drops, but zerglings have the best dps/cost and dps/supply in the game, so why bother. The range of 6 (*after* the ridiculous upgrade), is pointless vT, unless you've got 20+ roaches in your front line. HP and armor are more important than dps, imho, which is why 80 supply of thors will destroy 120 supply of zerglings without losing a single unit.
dps per supply? archon,.bl. thor, void ray and many more
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EPT
