I always thought 1-1-1 builds were extinct (other than Banshees and PoltPrime) in TvP.

Quick question, how does this build react to the Naniwa 2 gate expand build with 4 Stalkers, a Sentry for Guardian Shield, and a Zealot?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217567

It seems like I can easily run past the Bunker with a Guardian Shield and if I do manage to through it, I will either just straight up kill you or get at least 6 SCV kills. Your guide says if you see such thing, you would go for a Thor all in, however the Naniwa build should kill reactor-Barracks Thor-All ins straight up (without a wall).

It is a all-in-all great build, don't get me wrong. It is just that I always open with that build against Terran most of the time, and I would like to know how my opening would do against it.

Midgetman101

United States825 Posts

June 12 2011 22:29 GMT

#43

Wow from your replays you've destroyed so many high level tosses. Very nice guide !

iAmJeffReY

United States4262 Posts

June 12 2011 22:31 GMT

#44

Forget the build order, and replays... just the analysis of reading protoss builds will 100% help me. I got to 1400 masters, and can't tell you what a protoss is doing half the time. I scout, just cuz I have to.

Very nice write up warden- -- thank ya

Leaky

United States176 Posts

June 12 2011 22:48 GMT

#45

Great guide, great analysis of replays... Warden you are sick. Have been trying to make biomech work for so long, but just couldn't... then I did this on ladder 1st time and wrecked the shit out of a protoss. I am in love with this build!!

Tenspeed

Sweden28 Posts

June 12 2011 22:54 GMT

#46

Was literally just browsing the forums for a thread on how to read toss openings when I bumped into this. Most comprehensive guide I ever saw, and totally baller. This is where my TvP luck turns!

kathode

United States265 Posts

June 12 2011 22:57 GMT

#47

Woww. Incredible guide. Going to be watching replays all night :D

WardenSC

Canada210 Posts

June 13 2011 00:05 GMT

#48

Wow, definately going to try this, you beat like all of the top NA tosses with this... Very impresssed.
What do you do when the toss gets really heavy upgrades? Ive noticed that you are not heavy at all. It seems like if he can hold out til 3-3 he can then punish you for not being so heavy. Also, how does this fair agaisnt immortal/archon/HT builds? Ive noticed that this build amazinginly and simply enough seems to solve the collsi problem because PDD keeps your vikings alive to do the damage they need rather than them just getting picked off.

Watch my game vs cruncher where he is 2/2 and I am only +1 on infantry I think. As I expand into 3rd and 4th, I would concentrate on going upgrade heavy. Also watch rep#20 vs FXOSLoG for my play vs HT/archon/immortal play. I have talked about dealing with HT based builds on the guide.

In replay #18: Why did you go for 4 Rax 1 Fax 1 Starport? What made you go for a additional Rax instead of BF Helions?

Because in that game I was really low on gas as I made the mistake of not getting 3rd and 4th gas on my natural base quickly enough. I was very mineral heavy that game as bubbles continued to harass my addons with blink stalkers. I've also talked about how to defend vs it in the replay analysis.

Quick question, how does this build react to the Naniwa 2 gate expand build with 4 Stalkers, a Sentry for Guardian Shield, and a Zealot?

I don't go for thor all in when protoss goes 2 gate expand. I go thor all in when the protoss player either goes 1 gate cyber into expo or nexus first builds. I think I have 2 replays vs minigun and optikzero where they both go 2 gate pressure into expand build. You can watch that to see how I reacted/defended. I consider that among protoss "safe" builds and go into mid game with intention of building "Terran Death Ball".

Penatronic

150 Posts

June 13 2011 00:44 GMT

#49

Wow this guide should be the blueprint for all guides. So thorough. Good job man.

sirrobert5

United Kingdom62 Posts

June 13 2011 00:50 GMT

#50

thanks a lot man ive been fiddling around with quick ghost builds but this looks like a lot of fun. MUCH appreciation for the guide

naventus

United States1337 Posts

June 13 2011 00:56 GMT

#51

Found the reading builds part helpful, but I don't buy the viability of the composition. I would imagine there's a reason no top korean T's invest in more than MMGV.

How do you deal with splitting upgrades?

I feel like tanks are OK if you manual target the stalkers, but check this - a ghost for a similar cost will do more AOE instantly.

WardenSC

Canada210 Posts

June 13 2011 01:41 GMT

#52

Hey naventus, please read all the posts and watch all the replays before commenting on the viability of the build. Going by your reasoning, is IMMvp or MKP the only players qualified enough to come up with an effective strategy? I can tell you flat out that the difference between execution and invention of builds are WORLDS APART. I also have replay of me winning vs boyardee(he's naniwa, right?) but did not bother to post it only because I had thors in the composition and no longer feel that is necessary or beneficial for this build. Tanks are incredible vs protoss's clumped army especially colossus and stalkers as most stalkers sit right under colossus. So the splash damage is inflicted to the full extent. With respect to upgrades I research attack upgrades for both infantry and mech units. I already mentioned this in the guide which you would've realized if you made an attempt to read the whole guide.

PS: I'm from Korea if that's what you wanted to hear.

KingOfAmerica

United States246 Posts

June 13 2011 01:50 GMT

#53

The great part of this post is the detail into reading the Protoss early game. VERY useful. Well done man!

Moja

United States313 Posts

June 13 2011 02:15 GMT

#54

Finally more terrans using hellions

. This also reminded me of the power of PDD vs stalkers...

Just wanted to ask how important you think the siege tanks are to this strategy? I find them very cumbersome vs protoss because 1) you end up splashing your own units a lot vs chargelots, 2) they lose a TON of effectiveness if you get caught unsieged, 3) they greatly slow down your push, allowing protoss more time to reinforce, 4) because of how they work you're very vulnerable to counterattacks.

Do you feel like the tanks are essential to your success with this build?

Thanks for the build and LOVE the early game opener analysis!

RippuL

6 Posts

June 13 2011 02:27 GMT

#55

How do i watch the replayS?

binski

United States225 Posts

June 13 2011 02:41 GMT

#56

godly guide, you're the bomb warden :3

Trump

United States350 Posts

June 13 2011 02:55 GMT

#57

On June 13 2011 09:56 naventus wrote:
Found the reading builds part helpful, but I don't buy the viability of the composition. I would imagine there's a reason no top korean T's invest in more than MMGV.

How do you deal with splitting upgrades?

I feel like tanks are OK if you manual target the stalkers, but check this - a ghost for a similar cost will do more AOE instantly.

Really?

Ima let you finish, but MMMGV is the best composition of all time. OF ALL TIME!

This army composition has the potential to turn the mentality of tvp on its heels. You can fight a "straight up" fight, head on, with this Terran Death Ball. You can't* with MMMGV. Somebody's gotta be the first mover. There were quite a few games here that I watched in which MMMGV would have gotten melted but the sturdier biomech got what looked to me as "surprising" victories.

Shankapotamus

United States428 Posts

June 13 2011 02:56 GMT

#58

finally warden! been waitin for this!

Blamajama

156 Posts

June 13 2011 03:07 GMT

#59

Instead of a Thor All-In, your armory is already delayed with a 1:1:1. How about a PDD all-in? I would think your first unit out of the star port is maybe a medivac/Viking but as soon as you tech it you should build a banshee/Raven. If you suspect a non-robo build then you need to go for banshee but without scouting info, I would think you pump a raven as soon as you tech the star port. Raven/PDD with marine/Tank works as a better all-in, hitting at about 8:00-8:30 minutes. Unless you are going pure medivac/Thor with marine/helion as a base comp with no tech lab on the port.

naventus

United States1337 Posts

June 13 2011 03:17 GMT

#60

On June 13 2011 11:55 Trump wrote:

Show nested quote +

Really?

Show nested quote +

This is false. With full EMPs and the appropriate number of viking, T 200 can definitely trade evenly against P 200. There was a recent game on taldarim where one of the top T got up to like 5-6 base with extra orbitals, threw away some SCVs, and just stood on MGV.

I don't see the advantage of tanks, if you think back a few months to GSL like 3 seasons ago, or maybe beta, every T was doing tank oriented builds. They do less DPS than vikings against colossus, do not have any positioning advantage, and you would have to splash stalkers standing underneath as you claim (but often those don't stand together).

--

Re: OP. I don't want you to take offense, but viability of a composition when players are not particularly prepared for it, and not at the highest skill of the game should be questioned. If you can take a 5set off of MC, or demonstrate tournament viability, that is an entirely beast to surprising people on the ladder.