EPT[G] Warden’s TvP 1:1:1 into "Terran Death Ball" - Page 22
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dementrio
678 Posts
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
On October 27 2011 21:47 dementrio wrote: Instead of finding a harder allin vs 1gate expand, could you expand yourself before getting starport? you can cut production for a while and get a pretty quick expand. What's the downside? the downside is that you've put yourself behind by making all these production facilities that you then can't afford to utilize until much later. If you don't like the all-in vs 1 gate FE, but like the rest of the build, I think you could go 1 rax gasless into +1 rax and double gas and end up at the same position with a stronger econ. Would be vulnerable vs a whole slew of cheese though, so have to work out ways to hold (and possibly scout), the various all-ins that you might be scared of. Oh yea, and I played this guy on ladder and crushed him in a TvT, and he BM'd me and then ignored me promptly, didn't know he had a smurf account by the id REQchbeUBC | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
gasless expand is not really an option, you have no scouting, no map presence, you are essentially forced to a blind timing push and even cut corners to get there :\ | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
On your stream, you don't do this build anymore :S so now I'm just confused... | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
I've run into 4 Gate Warp Prism a few times with this build. In my experience it usually falls under possibility #6: Double gas, low energy with SCV, Hellion gets denied. The best way to deal with it is just stay on top of your ramp until you get out a Viking to deal with Warp Prisms. Unfortunately after the WP buff Turrets are no longer a viable option. Because now Prisms can fly directly over a turret and survive even without warp prism speed. Most the time it will be sentries loaded into the Prism to perma FF the ramp, with new warpins being mostly Zealots to kill buildings asap. So you don't need to worry about Stalkers killing your Vikings/Banshees too much. Because the 4 Gate WP has the same "trigger" as DT, lately I've been responding with Viking-Banshee and banking scan, instead of Viking-Raven. Because the Raven isn't going to do jack vs 4 Gate WP, there won't be any Stalkers to PDD and 1 autoturret is weaker than a single Stalker. But the banked mule will help your economy up while you pull SCVs, and the Banshee is useful vs both DTs (few Stalkers) and the 4 gate warp prism. | ||
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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
On November 22 2011 10:25 deathtrance wrote: I'm revisiting this build with all the "Chargelot/Archon/HT OP vs Bio" thing from the forums. I'm still wondering, if this build has been discovered it's weak or unviable in any way, or if it is still a strong build. On your stream, you don't do this build anymore :S so now I'm just confused... may you share your findings on how to handle that composition? as i'm facing this issue as well. this build got owned so hard against that composition | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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cruxXenocide
United States14 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On paper a couple of tanks, some helions, some ghosts and vikings to deal with colossi seem like something a protoss could never attack into, meaning you can comfortably max out on it off of 3 bases, then slow-push and take a fourth. Does anyone do this? | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
I think turteling as terran in TvP isn´t a good idea, because Protoss can easily take a lot of Expandtions and can get a lot of production to outproduce you. Mech and Ghosts aren´t easy to replace and it´s more an allin than a standard build. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On November 28 2011 18:29 Sianos wrote: There is a guide for TvZ. Search for Doc´s somewaht definite guide for TvZ. This guide is comparable to this one, but it´s more standard play related. I think turteling as terran in TvP isn´t a good idea, because Protoss can easily take a lot of Expandtions and can get a lot of production to outproduce you. Mech and Ghosts aren´t easy to replace and it´s more an allin than a standard build. Who hasn't heard of the four base Terran all-in? A couple of things: If you are on three mining bases you have about max. mineral income. If you are on 3/4 Bases you can get a lot of production buildings If you lose a Tank Ghost army you don't have to replace it with Tanks and Ghosts. Also I imagine like 4-6 Ghosts, some MMM and maybe 6-8 Tanks, propably less (more like the way your army looks against Zerg + EMP vs Immortal Shield/Storms/Archons Taking a lot of Bases vs Terran is hard to do with all the drops.... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 28 2011 18:22 rEalGuapo wrote: I never understood why Terrans didn't Turtle a bit more and get Ghosts + Tanks, you can defend great with tanks until your ghost count is up and well EMP + Tank shots, what is Toss ever gonna do!? Outexpand you, trade armies then instantly remax with 25+ gates and win ? | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On November 28 2011 23:16 TheDwf wrote: Outexpand you, trade armies then instantly remax with 25+ gates and win ? THats what I do and I always win vs Protoss | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On November 28 2011 23:19 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: THats what I do and I always win vs Protoss Most modern Standard TvP consists of a tankless force, relying entirely on EMPs for splash damage. People do this in order to be as mobile as possible against the slower-moving protoss splash units. This grants the terran opportunities to get ahead on bases and defend using mobility and drops, somewhat like a zerg player who uses mutalisks or ling runbys does with map control. Tanks are difficult to use, especially in large numbers, suffer from a number of protoss hard counters, and lack the mobility of a traditional bio force. Warden gets around this in a number of ways, and it's important to understand what he does to make his tanks work 1) Dealing with Chargelots This is the biggest problem for tanks. Chargelots are light, tanky, and quick, and get all up on your bio and other tanks and really make a mess of things. Whatever strength Chargelots may have against bio, it is several times stronger against tanks-- at least bio can kite. Warden deals with them by includes Hellions in his build, which provide the massive anti-light damage needed to prevent zealots from directly engaging the tanks in a meaningfully useful fashion. This cuts a certain amount of bio but is the best solution, basically. 2) Dealing with Immortals Immortals are strong against tanks and hellions. They would be a natural choice against a Terran trying to play full mech. In order to fight these units, Warden includes ghosts, and also Marines and Marauders which aren't so bad. This is where the bio part of the Terran Deathball is valuable. The M+M is also vital for dealing with blink stalkers and i guess stalker drops. 3) Dealing with Collosus and Air The 3rd and least traditional solution Protoss to fight tanks head-on is to make VRs, Carriers, or Colossi. VRs and Carriers are pretty weak against the sort of big bio play that's common in TvP midgame, but against tanks, obviously, they rock. VRs are relatively short-ranged and carriers are slow and expensive, though, so dealing with these isn't too hard-- vikings and bio do the trick. Similarly, although Colossi deal plenty of damage and don't take much splash from tanks, viking production is strong against them as always. 4) Non-compositional factors So, Warden's got a composition that's basically not hard countered by a lot of stuff. Or any stuff, really. It doesn't hard counter many standard protoss compositions, but it is what it is-- a very diverse composition. The real weaknesses are not related to any sort of hard counters by the protoss, but strategic decisions. Warden doesn't get the full benefit of shared upgrades, and has complicated infrastructure needs. His army is immobile and requires a certain amount of balling to be effective. It takes some time to get going. A protoss player could try to expand to his third base aggressively, tech and out-macro the terran in the absence of the heavy stim drops that characterize normal bio play. Warden's not out of tricks yet, though, and has two tools left for map control and pressure despite giving up on bio drops. The banshees and hellions are mobile and although not as strong as stim drops, can harass, assert map control, and make the protoss feel bad about moving out of his base. It's an ultimately stoppable harass but there you have it. Standard bio play doesn't have to worry about air units, or immobility, or lack of map presence-- it may have problems with chargelots, but not like siege tanks do, and you'll never see a bio player worried about his inability to harass or assert pressure indirectly. You have to compromise a lot of what is Standard in TvP to make Tanks work, and Warden does that admirably-- but understand that just adding tanks can't be done. You have to plan for it. You have to know what you're doing. It's gas-intensive, it splits your upgrades, and it makes you play a certain way. | ||
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rickuba
Brazil2 Posts
But I'm having some trouble on two things (I'm top silver matching against gold btw): Mass chargelots (30++) with stalkers and Colossi are so immune to what I did (But I think in that case I forgot the Vikings in the Deathball :p). Anyway, Hellions are the best against them? The other army that crushed me was a Stalker + HT (20+, seriously). When I started building ghosts it was too late. Please, how could I proceed on these cases?  Thank you! | ||
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Skyling
United States76 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On December 07 2011 15:43 Skyling wrote: I think this build might be something that would fit in the the "mech" play style they were talking about on SOTG tonight. more like biomechsky, not "mech" (you're still building a bio army) "mech" usually means just Mech (idk if mech also means air too, but w/e). | ||
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GorE_
Australia26 Posts
i would like to see how it stacks up against the cheaper upgrades and immortal range | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
That's its biggest downfall, because a well rounded opposing force will tear it apart. | ||
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Aiurr
Poland80 Posts
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