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On June 13 2011 09:56 naventus wrote:
Re: OP. I don't want you to take offense, but viability of a composition when players are not particularly prepared for it, and not at the highest skill of the game should be questioned. If you can take a 5set off of MC, or demonstrate tournament viability, that is an entirely beast to surprising people on the ladder.
You're right that the viability of this composition should be questioned, but your argument can't be "I haven't seen Korean terrans do this in GSL, therefore I don't think it's viable." Warden has already taken many steps to show that his build is viable at a GM level, and that it can adapt to answer many different protoss strategies. Of course GM on the NA server isn't the best players in the world, but the game is still new. In months or years, players will be playing at a much higher level & maybe using completely different strategies. Even if Warden were to go take out top Korean protosses with this strategy, it still may or may not be viable in a year or two.
The next step should be for more terrans to use this on ladder and see what its weaknesses are, and for protosses to try to find a way to break it. It could be that this build is flavor of the month and there's an easy fix, or it could be a completely viable way to play the matchup and strategies like this will become more popular. As for it seeing use in top Korean play such as in GSL: The Koreans are pretty set in their ways and like to practice their solid, standard play more than they like to experiment with new strategies. We have already seen a little bit of marine/siege tank play in the GSL. Given time, if this kind of strategy is truly effective, it will be picked up by Koreans and refined.
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So when protoss does a fast expand this is a "greedy build that must be punished" and you go all in every time?
There are no alternatives such as for example, a macro based play?
Are you sure there are no ways of countering these kind of all in? Because if most FE can defend this all in then you are basically conceding to be behind in the majority of tvp games
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oh god, i dont want sc2 to turn into a deathball game
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So when protoss does a fast expand this is a "greedy build that must be punished" and you go all in every time?
There are no alternatives such as for example, a macro based play?
Are you sure there are no ways of countering these kind of all in? Because if most FE can defend this all in then you are basically conceding to be behind in the majority of tvp games
If he/she fast expands, you can also choose to expand relatively early with 1/1/1 build. Please look at replay #17 where perfect goes for 1 gate expand and I expand with 1/1/1 instead of thor all in and still win the game rather convincingly. So there are alternatives to win the game obviously. (With that being said, I would've gone thor all in if I scouted his expansion before buildling a starport.) But with risky builds such as 1 gate expo, phoenix opening and dt opening, with countless experimentation, I found that there's a timing window that you can take advantage of, to win the game outright. Why would you want to prolong the game when you have 95% chance of winning it right there?
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Extremely thorough guide, very well put together!
I don't know if I would use this, it feels too 'one-of-everything' to me, and deathballs aren't really my thing, but it is certainly an interesting idea.
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Excellent guide and post. Even if I didn't want to use your build, your different categorizations/reads of protoss builds based on your scv and follow up scout is incredibly useful. That alone would be a great post, the interesting build/strategy is just (very thick!) gravy on top for me.  Thanks a lot.
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Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly.
As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information?
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On June 13 2011 22:03 jelle wrote:
Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly.
As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information?
further poke with hellion, try to dodge the troops and run in
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On June 13 2011 22:38 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 22:03 jelle wrote:
Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly.
As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information? further poke with hellion, try to dodge the troops and run in
Yeah, but what if my hellion poke gets denied, and all i know is he got 2 early gas, and no FE and 1 gateway
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On June 13 2011 22:46 jelle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 22:38 xTrim wrote:On June 13 2011 22:03 jelle wrote:
Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly.
As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information? further poke with hellion, try to dodge the troops and run in Yeah, but what if my hellion poke gets denied, and all i know is he got 2 early gas, and no FE and 1 gateway
probe is gonna see marine opening... every half-decent toss pokes the ramp with stalker zealot against marine opening... that poke leaves the base around the time your hellion reaches the toss' base.. therefore, you can poke freely.... remember: there should be TWO UNITS and third just about to come (unless SCV sees chrono on the first gate before core) by the time the hellion reaches the ramp...
in case the toss doesnt come with zea-stalker you poke up: if 2-3 zealots without stalker and u KNOW TH|ERE IS SECOND GAS, please get ready for DT or some heavy stargate tech... you can read the build more or less just by counting the units there are in the ramp...say you poke up and see zealot and 1-2 sentires, get ready for a heavy 4 gate or the sentry expo: leave the hellion next to the natural!
etc etc
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On June 13 2011 23:00 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 22:46 jelle wrote:On June 13 2011 22:38 xTrim wrote:On June 13 2011 22:03 jelle wrote:
Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly.
As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information? further poke with hellion, try to dodge the troops and run in Yeah, but what if my hellion poke gets denied, and all i know is he got 2 early gas, and no FE and 1 gateway probe is gonna see marine opening... every half-decent toss pokes the ramp with stalker zealot against marine opening... that poke leaves the base around the time your hellion reaches the toss' base.. therefore, you can poke freely.... remember: there should be TWO UNITS and third just about to come (unless SCV sees chrono on the first gate before core) by the time the hellion reaches the ramp... in case the toss doesnt come with zea-stalker you poke up: if 2-3 zealots without stalker and u KNOW TH|ERE IS SECOND GAS, please get ready for DT or some heavy stargate tech... you can read the build more or less just by counting the units there are in the ramp...say you poke up and see zealot and 1-2 sentires, get ready for a heavy 4 gate or the sentry expo: leave the hellion next to the natural! etc etc
Wow yeah, okay, I kinda get where you going. I'm playing in the lower leagues, so its not always i get these 1 stalker 1 zealot pokes, so let me see if i get this 100%.
Poke on ramp:
2-3 zealots no stalker = DT or stargate (gas tech) = wall off and get viking, then raven
Mostly sentries = 4 gate or sentry expo = keep hellion in expo, get banshee and siegetank, and another bunker, and expand if opponent does so.
1 Zealot 2 stalkers = 3 gate robo? = safebuild, normal deathball
Are their any other builds I should be prepared for, by scouting the ramp with the initial hellion?
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that is probably as much as you can get... though in order to avoid the hellion runby he'd need to keep stalkers with hold position (which is not gonna happend most of the case)... and as the OP said, if he IS REALLY TRYING to hold ground it means there is something gimmicky going on... better get ready
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I wonder what would happen if this death ball fought a Protoss death ball.
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SergTom, you can see it in the replays  i wont spoil it for ya
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from what it seems, looks like it can fight head on... i tried it on the unit tester map... and i made a scary looking toss army... 3-0-3 composition with 20 chargelots, 6 colossi, about 15 stalkers and 6 immortals (around 120 supply) vs another 120 supply with 10 tanks, 6 ghosts, 6 vikings 1 raven with 2 pdds, 2 medivacs 15 bf hellions with 16 marines and 8 marauders (or someting like that)... with 2 attack for bio and 2 attack for mech
i tried MANY MANY MANY different scenarios... chokes.. troops split and not split up.. tanks caught unsieged... etc etc..
i didnt make sentries for 2 reasons... 1- i was microing terran... 2- damage reduction by 2 is shit compared to siege tanks dealing 60 dmg, ghosts dealing 100 dmg, hellions with 35 vs light, etc etc
i tried them many times... the results below are the average outcome of the battle
my results:
tanks sieged, no EMP, no pdd, no micro from terran at all.. toss a-moving: toss wins by a good margin (about 2 colossi with 3 immortals and some stalkers)
tanks sieged with all the good stuff (emp, pdd, stim pack, hellions focusing zealots, etc etc).. terran wins big time: about ALL TANKS REMAINED, some marauders, landed vikings and 1-2 ghjosts...
tanks unsieged, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate, no micro whatsoever: toss roflstomp....
tanks unsieged, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate and massive EMPS everywhere - tie: there have been times where 1 siege tank was left alive, others 2 vikings, others 1 stalker, other one immortal with low hp... etc
tanks unsiege, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate and massive EMPS, PDDs, vikings and tanks focusing colossi, hellions dealing with chargelots, etc etc - T WINS with about 4 tanks and landed vikings...
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On June 13 2011 23:48 xTrim wrote:
from what it seems, looks like it can fight head on... i tried it on the unit tester map... and i made a scary looking toss army... 3-0-3 composition with 20 chargelots, 6 colossi, about 15 stalkers and 6 immortals (around 120 supply) vs another 120 supply with 10 tanks, 6 ghosts, 6 vikings 1 raven with 2 pdds, 2 medivacs 15 bf hellions with 16 marines and 8 marauders (or someting like that)... with 2 attack for bio and 2 attack for mech
i tried MANY MANY MANY different scenarios... chokes.. troops split and not split up.. tanks caught unsieged... etc etc..
i didnt make sentries for 2 reasons... 1- i was microing terran... 2- damage reduction by 2 is shit compared to siege tanks dealing 60 dmg, ghosts dealing 100 dmg, hellions with 35 vs light, etc etc
i tried them many times... the results below are the average outcome of the battle
my results:
tanks sieged, no EMP, no pdd, no micro from terran at all.. toss a-moving: toss wins by a good margin (about 2 colossi with 3 immortals and some stalkers)
tanks sieged with all the good stuff (emp, pdd, stim pack, hellions focusing zealots, etc etc).. terran wins big time: about ALL TANKS REMAINED, some marauders, landed vikings and 1-2 ghjosts...
tanks unsieged, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate, no micro whatsoever: toss roflstomp....
tanks unsieged, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate and massive EMPS everywhere - tie: there have been times where 1 siege tank was left alive, others 2 vikings, others 1 stalker, other one immortal with low hp... etc
tanks unsiege, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate and massive EMPS, PDDs, vikings and tanks focusing colossi, hellions dealing with chargelots, etc etc - T WINS with about 4 tanks and landed vikings...
Nice testing I specially like that you tried scenarios where you siege a bit late.
To me, this tells that if you leapfrog your tanks carefull enough, have map control, and micro as Warden instructs with MMMhellion on 1 hotkey, tanks and vikings on another, you should be pretty safe.
Another question:
I for one like Banshee's, let alone cloaked banshees. Now if i scout my opponent is going some kind of tech without robo, a cloaked banshee can often win a lot of games just by getting 10+ kills in the mineral line. Is there anyway to have cloaked banshees with this build, and still be safe? Or would it have to be too late in the game to really do enough dmg compared to the cost?
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How do u deal with nexus first?
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hey OP,
stop taking random ladder strats and put ur name on its name and try to take credit out of nothing next time
damn epeen..
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The only cons that I can see with this build at first glance are that siege tanks take a long time to replenish and pretty much require you to have map control unless you want to waste scans or be in the dark about where his army is. Reason being is that if you get caught unsieged your tanks are about useless, not only that but tanks take forever to replenish.
I'd like to see a variation of this build without the tanks, maybe just adding more mnms instead.
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EPT
