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So i've been playing around with the ghost first build for awhile since the regular TvT openings have gotten pretty boring as of late. This is the revised edition of qxc's ghost first build, which is obsolete now with patch 1.3.3. Here's the optimized build for the new patch, it does well banshee openers and blueflame drops. This is simply the best way to open with a ghost rush in TvT.
The point of this build is to be able to fight off any Terran opening, e.g. banshee, blueflame, econ focused openers, while having the ability to punish your opponent if he gets too greedy and skimps on defense early on. However, the build does not rely on causing early damage, as you are still able to transition out because the build finishes so early. Also, the initial push hits very fast, at around 5:20 ideally, which is before a siege tank can be out.
The tells for this build are also fairly slim, as it looks entirely standard up till the point were you can deny scouting with marines. However, if you're opponent gets the idea that you are going to attack them, a single bunker will stop your push. This is not the end of the world though, as you can always retreat receiving no losses and transition accordingly.
As for the push, first take out any threats to your ghosts like marines or a hellion that could be out, then move on to the SCV's. If they try to surround you simply stick to wall and get as many kills as you can, the tradeoff puts you significantly ahead.
Constant SCV production as always and make sure you throw down the buildings as soon as you can afford.
Build Order
10 supply
12 rax
13 refinery, ideal time is :55
15 OC
Marine
16 Ghost Academy
Marine
17 supply, make sure you get this one on time
17 Tech Lab
Ghost @ ideally 4:00
4:40 move out with two marines, ghost and 2 scv's
Replay: Even though I went on to lose the game because I prepped for banshees instead of blueflame, you can see how powerful this build is after my initial attack which left me in the lead with 7 more SCV's and almost a 10 supply lead.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-210590.jpg)
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SEXXYYYYYY i like it man, early ghosts mega strong, and you can move into Cloak/Nuke which can be annoying all game for your opponent. Nice build.
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The weakness to this bo, like any other very early Ghost TvT, is tanks.
If the rush distance is long enough, your opponent can easily have a tank which easily kills your small army.
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On May 24 2011 09:23 noobinator wrote:
The weakness to this bo, like any other very early Ghost TvT, is tanks.
If the rush distance is long enough, your opponent can easily have a tank which easily kills your small army.
This is not the case. Check: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145860
What the OP fails to mention is that you mass up stim marauders afterwards. They have no trouble attacking tanks until a Terran hits a critical mass of them. At which point you just use a nuke to force an unsiege.
(edit: wrong link)
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I've been dabbling with this exact build order (with marauders and stim after) since shortly after the patch. I love how it looks so mundane until the ghost academy goes down (I often proxy it). Good to know at least one other person reached the same conclusion...
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I really like this opener ^__^
Even if you trade armies if you know he has a factory you can get marauders & stim quickly from the racks with tech lab. I like easy transitions from early pushes
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The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. If you can catch them doing a Bunker-less 1/1/1, you can do some hefty damage with this though. I'd even say Blueflame openings counter this one though, you're going to be hard-pressed to stop a Blueflame drop with 1 Rax worth of Marines/Ghost.
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Seen BoxeR do this a few times on Delta Quadrant with a marine-sniper push, but wouldn't a proxied and hidden second Barracks with a gas do more damage? I mean there is really not that much more use for the Ghost Academy after that push.
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Is this viable against 2-rax or 3-rax?
How do ghosts fair against reapers? What if you get the ghost and 2 marines in their base, and they get 3 reapers in your base... what wins?
Maybe these questions should be in "simple-questions."
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What the OP fails to mention is that you mass up stim marauders afterwards. You actually don't have to. Personally I like to move to tanks taking the 2nd gas at around 20.
(I often proxy it) Why?
The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. The build doesn't fail if there's a bunker up. Lets say the opponent opens banshees and throws down a bunker. All you have to do is retreat, and hang around your main with your ghosts and marines, which will completely shut down the banshees as you were shut down with the bunker. However, What tells would you use to justify a bunker? It won't be up in time if its thrown down as soon as the ghost finishes.
How do ghosts fair against reapers? What if you get the ghost and 2 marines in their base, and they get 3 reapers in your base... what wins? Ghost smash Reapers in a brawl. Also you can have a marauder/+ in your base by the time 3 reapers arrive.
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On May 24 2011 10:39 bobwhiz wrote:
Is this viable against 2-rax or 3-rax?
How do ghosts fair against reapers? What if you get the ghost and 2 marines in their base, and they get 3 reapers in your base... what wins?
Maybe these questions should be in "simple-questions."
Maybe you should check for yourself lol...Btw great opening I think I might give it a shot.
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On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. The build doesn't fail if there's a bunker up. Lets say the opponent opens banshees and throws down a bunker. All you have to do is retreat, and hang around your main with your ghosts and marines, which will completely shut down the banshees as you were shut down with the bunker. However, What tells would you use to justify a bunker? It won't be up in time if its thrown down as soon as the ghost finishes.
You retreat and neither of you do damage, but your expansion will come at relatively the same as his, except you have a Ghost Academy and a Barracks while he has a Barracks, a Factory, and a Starport; way ahead in useful tech.
Personally whenever I do a fast tech 1/1/1 I'll put a Bunker just so I don't lose to any 2 Rax/Blueflame rush/etc shenanigans.
If he went Blueflame with a Bunker then you have no chance at pressuring him while he's almost certainly guaranteed to do damage to your SCV line while still being ahead in tech.
You'd also be pretty hard pressed to stop a Marine/Tank/Viking 1 base all-in with Ghost tech.
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On May 24 2011 11:20 Curu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. The build doesn't fail if there's a bunker up. Lets say the opponent opens banshees and throws down a bunker. All you have to do is retreat, and hang around your main with your ghosts and marines, which will completely shut down the banshees as you were shut down with the bunker. However, What tells would you use to justify a bunker? It won't be up in time if its thrown down as soon as the ghost finishes. You retreat and neither of you do damage, but your expansion will come at relatively the same as his, except you have a Ghost Academy and a Barracks while he has a Barracks, a Factory, and a Starport; way ahead in useful tech. Personally whenever I do a fast tech 1/1/1 I'll put a Bunker just so I don't lose to any 2 Rax/Blueflame rush/etc shenanigans. If he went Blueflame with a Bunker then you have no chance at pressuring him while he's almost certainly guaranteed to do damage to your SCV line while still being ahead in tech. You'd also be pretty hard pressed to stop a Marine/Tank/Viking 1 base all-in with Ghost tech. Not entirely true here, the push comes @ around 5:20 while a single banshee hits at around 6:40, blueflame drop at 7:30. You have more than enough time to build a factory and a tank or get more than enough marauders to limit scv kills to <5. "behind in tech" is an arbitrary statement, check your timings. Also, what time do you build your bunker? I don't understand why you think that you're supposed to stop building production facilities after you move out.
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This is a small little side note, but ghosts are AMAZING vs. reaper openings. Just btw. They actually shut them down completely. Seriously. I think 1 ghost can solo about 4 reapers handily.
But really I like this opening. I may go and test it out on some nubs. Thanks!
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On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:You actually don't have to. Personally I like to move to tanks taking the 2nd gas at around 20.
And then you do what exactly against a push with two tanks and marines? The time taken to get ghosts puts your siege tech way way later. You will also lose to any sort of Thor opening without marauders.
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I liked this ghost build. Seems like an odd way to put pressure in the "early game", meaning it aint what a player would usually expect.Still im not quite sure about how much damage can be dealt with it, seems to me that in the replay your opponent was being very greedy on its teching and didnt quite microed well at all its forces, didnt saved at least 1 of its marines at the ramp nor repaired the 1st hellion nor did a proper surround to the attacking forces with scv's.
Wont comment on the other events of the replay cause this is what i would call an "opener strategy"
Cant help to think this might be great against zergs who fast expand as long as you put a couple extra scvs in the mix to tank damage and avoid surrounds. But still on that scenario a lonely spine could deflect the attack forcing to a very scary retreat.
Still i take my hat off. I really like the ghost and its nice to see people trying new builds, and i assure you i will give it a try next time i play a tvt ot tvz see how that goes.
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On May 24 2011 12:06 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:20 Curu wrote:On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. The build doesn't fail if there's a bunker up. Lets say the opponent opens banshees and throws down a bunker. All you have to do is retreat, and hang around your main with your ghosts and marines, which will completely shut down the banshees as you were shut down with the bunker. However, What tells would you use to justify a bunker? It won't be up in time if its thrown down as soon as the ghost finishes. You retreat and neither of you do damage, but your expansion will come at relatively the same as his, except you have a Ghost Academy and a Barracks while he has a Barracks, a Factory, and a Starport; way ahead in useful tech. Personally whenever I do a fast tech 1/1/1 I'll put a Bunker just so I don't lose to any 2 Rax/Blueflame rush/etc shenanigans. If he went Blueflame with a Bunker then you have no chance at pressuring him while he's almost certainly guaranteed to do damage to your SCV line while still being ahead in tech. You'd also be pretty hard pressed to stop a Marine/Tank/Viking 1 base all-in with Ghost tech. Not entirely true here, the push comes @ around 5:20 while a single banshee hits at around 6:40, blueflame drop at 7:30. You have more than enough time to build a factory and a tank or get more than enough marauders to limit scv kills to <5. "behind in tech" is an arbitrary statement, check your timings. Also, what time do you build your bunker? I don't understand why you think that you're supposed to stop building production facilities after you move out.
You make a Rax, then a Ghost Academy, then a Ghost. Other player makes a Rax, then a Factory with his first 100 gas, then a Starport once the Factory is done. There's nothing arbitrary about it, he has more tech earlier than you. Your first 200 gas goes into getting a Ghost, his first 200 goes into getting a Factory and a Starport.
Losing 5 SCVs is quite a big deal, especially if you failed to do any damage (which is 100% of the time the other player gets a Bunker) and are behind in tech.
It just seems gimmicky relying on the other player to be both fast teching and not building a Bunker, but some form of 2/3 Rax all-in works just as well in those situations.
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i've tested a build similar to this, i don't remember my BO but it was roughly the same and i felt like an opponent who goes quick tanks owns it.
ALSO GUYS! don't forget that you can't kite using snipe like you would with a normal attack. you actually have to wait for your ghost to load up and everything.
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You make a Rax, then a Ghost Academy, then a Ghost. Other player makes a Rax, then a Factory with his first 100 gas, then a Starport once the Factory is done. There's nothing arbitrary about it, he has more tech earlier than you. Your first 200 gas goes into getting a Ghost, his first 200 goes into getting a Factory and a Starport. It is entirely arbitrary. Factory and starports aren't even tech structures! They are production facilities. What do you think a Ghost Academy even is? Its a tech structure because it unlocks Ghosts and associated upgrades just like how an armory unlocks thors and upgrades. Yes, factories and starports allow one to climb the tech tree but that is nowhere near their primary function.
It just seems gimmicky relying on the other player to be both fast teching and not building a Bunker, but some form of 2/3 Rax all-in works just as well in those situations. The clear difference between this build and a 2/3 rax all-in is that at the end of the day when you have been repelled by a bunker, the ghost first build will be able to adapt to the opponents opening and be further ahead in tech, while the 2/3 raxing player will lose because that strategy is an all-in.
If you still think this build auto-loses to any of the more known openers I'd be happy to demonstrate it to you first hand and you will lose. CaptainSoban.697
ALSO GUYS! don't forget that you can't kite using snipe like you would with a normal attack. you actually have to wait for your ghost to load up and everything. This shouldn't be all that big of an issue seeing that if the opponent pulls enough scv's, you will undoubtedly get surrounded no matter if you are shutter stepping or not (although ever bit helps). Kiting only prevents you from getting surrounded if you have a reasonable ball of units, 3 doesn't cut it.
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On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:Why?
Not always necessary, but the odds are decent that the enemy scout will still be in your base around the time you want to throw down the ghost academy. You cam always delay it a bit to make sure they're gone, but there's a premium on swift execution with an opener like this.
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EPT
