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So i've been playing around with the ghost first build for awhile since the regular TvT openings have gotten pretty boring as of late. This is the revised edition of qxc's ghost first build, which is obsolete now with patch 1.3.3. Here's the optimized build for the new patch, it does well banshee openers and blueflame drops. This is simply the best way to open with a ghost rush in TvT.
The point of this build is to be able to fight off any Terran opening, e.g. banshee, blueflame, econ focused openers, while having the ability to punish your opponent if he gets too greedy and skimps on defense early on. However, the build does not rely on causing early damage, as you are still able to transition out because the build finishes so early. Also, the initial push hits very fast, at around 5:20 ideally, which is before a siege tank can be out.
The tells for this build are also fairly slim, as it looks entirely standard up till the point were you can deny scouting with marines. However, if you're opponent gets the idea that you are going to attack them, a single bunker will stop your push. This is not the end of the world though, as you can always retreat receiving no losses and transition accordingly.
As for the push, first take out any threats to your ghosts like marines or a hellion that could be out, then move on to the SCV's. If they try to surround you simply stick to wall and get as many kills as you can, the tradeoff puts you significantly ahead.
Constant SCV production as always and make sure you throw down the buildings as soon as you can afford.
Build Order
10 supply
12 rax
13 refinery, ideal time is :55
15 OC
Marine
16 Ghost Academy
Marine
17 supply, make sure you get this one on time
17 Tech Lab
Ghost @ ideally 4:00
4:40 move out with two marines, ghost and 2 scv's
Replay: Even though I went on to lose the game because I prepped for banshees instead of blueflame, you can see how powerful this build is after my initial attack which left me in the lead with 7 more SCV's and almost a 10 supply lead.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-210590.jpg)
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SEXXYYYYYY i like it man, early ghosts mega strong, and you can move into Cloak/Nuke which can be annoying all game for your opponent. Nice build.
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The weakness to this bo, like any other very early Ghost TvT, is tanks.
If the rush distance is long enough, your opponent can easily have a tank which easily kills your small army.
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On May 24 2011 09:23 noobinator wrote:
The weakness to this bo, like any other very early Ghost TvT, is tanks.
If the rush distance is long enough, your opponent can easily have a tank which easily kills your small army.
This is not the case. Check: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145860
What the OP fails to mention is that you mass up stim marauders afterwards. They have no trouble attacking tanks until a Terran hits a critical mass of them. At which point you just use a nuke to force an unsiege.
(edit: wrong link)
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I've been dabbling with this exact build order (with marauders and stim after) since shortly after the patch. I love how it looks so mundane until the ghost academy goes down (I often proxy it). Good to know at least one other person reached the same conclusion...
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I really like this opener ^__^
Even if you trade armies if you know he has a factory you can get marauders & stim quickly from the racks with tech lab. I like easy transitions from early pushes
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The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. If you can catch them doing a Bunker-less 1/1/1, you can do some hefty damage with this though. I'd even say Blueflame openings counter this one though, you're going to be hard-pressed to stop a Blueflame drop with 1 Rax worth of Marines/Ghost.
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Seen BoxeR do this a few times on Delta Quadrant with a marine-sniper push, but wouldn't a proxied and hidden second Barracks with a gas do more damage? I mean there is really not that much more use for the Ghost Academy after that push.
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Is this viable against 2-rax or 3-rax?
How do ghosts fair against reapers? What if you get the ghost and 2 marines in their base, and they get 3 reapers in your base... what wins?
Maybe these questions should be in "simple-questions."
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What the OP fails to mention is that you mass up stim marauders afterwards. You actually don't have to. Personally I like to move to tanks taking the 2nd gas at around 20.
(I often proxy it) Why?
The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. The build doesn't fail if there's a bunker up. Lets say the opponent opens banshees and throws down a bunker. All you have to do is retreat, and hang around your main with your ghosts and marines, which will completely shut down the banshees as you were shut down with the bunker. However, What tells would you use to justify a bunker? It won't be up in time if its thrown down as soon as the ghost finishes.
How do ghosts fair against reapers? What if you get the ghost and 2 marines in their base, and they get 3 reapers in your base... what wins? Ghost smash Reapers in a brawl. Also you can have a marauder/+ in your base by the time 3 reapers arrive.
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On May 24 2011 10:39 bobwhiz wrote:
Is this viable against 2-rax or 3-rax?
How do ghosts fair against reapers? What if you get the ghost and 2 marines in their base, and they get 3 reapers in your base... what wins?
Maybe these questions should be in "simple-questions."
Maybe you should check for yourself lol...Btw great opening I think I might give it a shot.
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On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. The build doesn't fail if there's a bunker up. Lets say the opponent opens banshees and throws down a bunker. All you have to do is retreat, and hang around your main with your ghosts and marines, which will completely shut down the banshees as you were shut down with the bunker. However, What tells would you use to justify a bunker? It won't be up in time if its thrown down as soon as the ghost finishes.
You retreat and neither of you do damage, but your expansion will come at relatively the same as his, except you have a Ghost Academy and a Barracks while he has a Barracks, a Factory, and a Starport; way ahead in useful tech.
Personally whenever I do a fast tech 1/1/1 I'll put a Bunker just so I don't lose to any 2 Rax/Blueflame rush/etc shenanigans.
If he went Blueflame with a Bunker then you have no chance at pressuring him while he's almost certainly guaranteed to do damage to your SCV line while still being ahead in tech.
You'd also be pretty hard pressed to stop a Marine/Tank/Viking 1 base all-in with Ghost tech.
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On May 24 2011 11:20 Curu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. The build doesn't fail if there's a bunker up. Lets say the opponent opens banshees and throws down a bunker. All you have to do is retreat, and hang around your main with your ghosts and marines, which will completely shut down the banshees as you were shut down with the bunker. However, What tells would you use to justify a bunker? It won't be up in time if its thrown down as soon as the ghost finishes. You retreat and neither of you do damage, but your expansion will come at relatively the same as his, except you have a Ghost Academy and a Barracks while he has a Barracks, a Factory, and a Starport; way ahead in useful tech. Personally whenever I do a fast tech 1/1/1 I'll put a Bunker just so I don't lose to any 2 Rax/Blueflame rush/etc shenanigans. If he went Blueflame with a Bunker then you have no chance at pressuring him while he's almost certainly guaranteed to do damage to your SCV line while still being ahead in tech. You'd also be pretty hard pressed to stop a Marine/Tank/Viking 1 base all-in with Ghost tech. Not entirely true here, the push comes @ around 5:20 while a single banshee hits at around 6:40, blueflame drop at 7:30. You have more than enough time to build a factory and a tank or get more than enough marauders to limit scv kills to <5. "behind in tech" is an arbitrary statement, check your timings. Also, what time do you build your bunker? I don't understand why you think that you're supposed to stop building production facilities after you move out.
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This is a small little side note, but ghosts are AMAZING vs. reaper openings. Just btw. They actually shut them down completely. Seriously. I think 1 ghost can solo about 4 reapers handily.
But really I like this opening. I may go and test it out on some nubs. Thanks!
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On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:You actually don't have to. Personally I like to move to tanks taking the 2nd gas at around 20.
And then you do what exactly against a push with two tanks and marines? The time taken to get ghosts puts your siege tech way way later. You will also lose to any sort of Thor opening without marauders.
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I liked this ghost build. Seems like an odd way to put pressure in the "early game", meaning it aint what a player would usually expect.Still im not quite sure about how much damage can be dealt with it, seems to me that in the replay your opponent was being very greedy on its teching and didnt quite microed well at all its forces, didnt saved at least 1 of its marines at the ramp nor repaired the 1st hellion nor did a proper surround to the attacking forces with scv's.
Wont comment on the other events of the replay cause this is what i would call an "opener strategy"
Cant help to think this might be great against zergs who fast expand as long as you put a couple extra scvs in the mix to tank damage and avoid surrounds. But still on that scenario a lonely spine could deflect the attack forcing to a very scary retreat.
Still i take my hat off. I really like the ghost and its nice to see people trying new builds, and i assure you i will give it a try next time i play a tvt ot tvz see how that goes.
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On May 24 2011 12:06 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:20 Curu wrote:On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. The build doesn't fail if there's a bunker up. Lets say the opponent opens banshees and throws down a bunker. All you have to do is retreat, and hang around your main with your ghosts and marines, which will completely shut down the banshees as you were shut down with the bunker. However, What tells would you use to justify a bunker? It won't be up in time if its thrown down as soon as the ghost finishes. You retreat and neither of you do damage, but your expansion will come at relatively the same as his, except you have a Ghost Academy and a Barracks while he has a Barracks, a Factory, and a Starport; way ahead in useful tech. Personally whenever I do a fast tech 1/1/1 I'll put a Bunker just so I don't lose to any 2 Rax/Blueflame rush/etc shenanigans. If he went Blueflame with a Bunker then you have no chance at pressuring him while he's almost certainly guaranteed to do damage to your SCV line while still being ahead in tech. You'd also be pretty hard pressed to stop a Marine/Tank/Viking 1 base all-in with Ghost tech. Not entirely true here, the push comes @ around 5:20 while a single banshee hits at around 6:40, blueflame drop at 7:30. You have more than enough time to build a factory and a tank or get more than enough marauders to limit scv kills to <5. "behind in tech" is an arbitrary statement, check your timings. Also, what time do you build your bunker? I don't understand why you think that you're supposed to stop building production facilities after you move out.
You make a Rax, then a Ghost Academy, then a Ghost. Other player makes a Rax, then a Factory with his first 100 gas, then a Starport once the Factory is done. There's nothing arbitrary about it, he has more tech earlier than you. Your first 200 gas goes into getting a Ghost, his first 200 goes into getting a Factory and a Starport.
Losing 5 SCVs is quite a big deal, especially if you failed to do any damage (which is 100% of the time the other player gets a Bunker) and are behind in tech.
It just seems gimmicky relying on the other player to be both fast teching and not building a Bunker, but some form of 2/3 Rax all-in works just as well in those situations.
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i've tested a build similar to this, i don't remember my BO but it was roughly the same and i felt like an opponent who goes quick tanks owns it.
ALSO GUYS! don't forget that you can't kite using snipe like you would with a normal attack. you actually have to wait for your ghost to load up and everything.
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You make a Rax, then a Ghost Academy, then a Ghost. Other player makes a Rax, then a Factory with his first 100 gas, then a Starport once the Factory is done. There's nothing arbitrary about it, he has more tech earlier than you. Your first 200 gas goes into getting a Ghost, his first 200 goes into getting a Factory and a Starport. It is entirely arbitrary. Factory and starports aren't even tech structures! They are production facilities. What do you think a Ghost Academy even is? Its a tech structure because it unlocks Ghosts and associated upgrades just like how an armory unlocks thors and upgrades. Yes, factories and starports allow one to climb the tech tree but that is nowhere near their primary function.
It just seems gimmicky relying on the other player to be both fast teching and not building a Bunker, but some form of 2/3 Rax all-in works just as well in those situations. The clear difference between this build and a 2/3 rax all-in is that at the end of the day when you have been repelled by a bunker, the ghost first build will be able to adapt to the opponents opening and be further ahead in tech, while the 2/3 raxing player will lose because that strategy is an all-in.
If you still think this build auto-loses to any of the more known openers I'd be happy to demonstrate it to you first hand and you will lose. CaptainSoban.697
ALSO GUYS! don't forget that you can't kite using snipe like you would with a normal attack. you actually have to wait for your ghost to load up and everything. This shouldn't be all that big of an issue seeing that if the opponent pulls enough scv's, you will undoubtedly get surrounded no matter if you are shutter stepping or not (although ever bit helps). Kiting only prevents you from getting surrounded if you have a reasonable ball of units, 3 doesn't cut it.
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On May 24 2011 11:11 Captain Soban wrote:Why?
Not always necessary, but the odds are decent that the enemy scout will still be in your base around the time you want to throw down the ghost academy. You cam always delay it a bit to make sure they're gone, but there's a premium on swift execution with an opener like this.
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And then you do what exactly against a push with two tanks and marines? The time taken to get ghosts puts your siege tech way way later. You will also lose to any sort of Thor opening without marauders. You can have two tanks by the time he has two w/ siege. That combined with your own marines and snipe can fend it off. Siege shouldn't cause you too much trouble unless you're horrible at positioning. As for thors, if it is rushed, your initial push will cause sig. damage and weaken the rush. You also will be able to have at least one tank out by the time a thor reaches your base.
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On May 24 2011 13:47 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +You make a Rax, then a Ghost Academy, then a Ghost. Other player makes a Rax, then a Factory with his first 100 gas, then a Starport once the Factory is done. There's nothing arbitrary about it, he has more tech earlier than you. Your first 200 gas goes into getting a Ghost, his first 200 goes into getting a Factory and a Starport. It is entirely arbitrary. Factory and starports aren't even tech structures! They are production facilities. What do you think a Ghost Academy even is? Its a tech structure because it unlocks Ghosts and associated upgrades just like how an armory unlocks thors and upgrades. Yes, factories and starports allow one to climb the tech tree but that is nowhere near their primary function. Show nested quote +It just seems gimmicky relying on the other player to be both fast teching and not building a Bunker, but some form of 2/3 Rax all-in works just as well in those situations. The clear difference between this build and a 2/3 rax all-in is that at the end of the day when you have been repelled by a bunker, the ghost first build will be able to adapt to the opponents opening and be further ahead in tech, while the 2/3 raxing player will lose because that strategy is an all-in. If you still think this build auto-loses to any of the more known openers I'd be happy to demonstrate it to you first hand and you will lose. CaptainSoban.697 Show nested quote +ALSO GUYS! don't forget that you can't kite using snipe like you would with a normal attack. you actually have to wait for your ghost to load up and everything. This shouldn't be all that big of an issue seeing that if the opponent pulls enough scv's, you will undoubtedly get surrounded no matter if you are shutter stepping or not (although ever bit helps). Kiting only prevents you from getting surrounded if you have a reasonable ball of units, 3 doesn't cut it.
So in your opinion nothing is a tech structure except Ghost Academy and Fusion Core? Okay then.
I really don't see how you can argue that you having a Ghost Academy and him having a Factory and Starport = you're ahead in tech. You're not. If you have a Starport you can make Vikings, Medivacs, Banshees, Ravens. If you don't have one you can't. Simple as that. You can make Ghosts, he can make Hellions, Tanks, Vikings, Medivacs, Ravens, Banshees. He's ahead in tech.
Going "ok play me and you'll lose" is the worst form of arguing for your strategy. NaDa can come post some retarded ass BC rush build and if anyone argues against it he says "ok play me and you'll lose" it's true but doesn't make the build any less retarded. Look at the replay you yourself posted; your build actually worked and put you ahead but you still lost the game because you got outplayed. That's not grounds to say your build sucks because the other guy beat you.
Look at pro tournament play, I think there's been two games where a player opened fast Ghost, one where TLO got wrecked by NaDa and another one in Code A that I can't recall right now (but the Ghosting player also got wrecked).
I've played around with every sort of Ghost or whatever opening because I hated Tank Viking back in the day in TvT, you will lose or be behind to any sort of 1 base Tank push or fast tech build that doesn't cut corners for defense.
That said many players WILL skimp on that Bunker, so you'll probably have a lot of success with this build. I'm just pointing out that it completely relies on your opponent skipping that Bunker for you to come out ahead using this build.
You also must kill at least 3 or 4 SCVs to come even, because you're throwing away 2 SCVs + the mining time for them.
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lol ok, here s the problem with this push, at 5:20 most people have 4 marines and a hellion, and most non shitty people are active with their first marines to gain map control, as u r building ur tech lab and ghost u ll be behind on marine count, if u lose ur first 2 scv and not do any eco damage, u r behind from losing the 2 scv + mining time. and with decent micro, i m not convinced that 4 marine and 1 hellion loses to 2 marine 2 scv and 1 ghost, even if it does, u wont have enough reinforcements/units left over to do any eco damage. more importantly ghost tech are incredibly hit and miss and require its own play style including nukes to deal with tank line as ghost tech is incredibly situational dependent in tvt whereas marine tank is tried and true.
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I started messing around with this a few days ago. It is a great open if the rush distance isn't too large, and if your opponent techs. You can expand as you move out too. Pretty good.
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Reposting Betalump's builds :O
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On May 24 2011 14:08 Notaa wrote:
lol ok, here s the problem with this push, at 5:20 most people have 4 marines and a hellion, and most non shitty people are active with their first marines to gain map control, as u r building ur tech lab and ghost u ll be behind on marine count, if u lose ur first 2 scv and not do any eco damage, u r behind from losing the 2 scv + mining time. and with decent micro, i m not convinced that 4 marine and 1 hellion loses to 2 marine 2 scv and 1 ghost, even if it does, u wont have enough reinforcements/units left over to do any eco damage. more importantly ghost tech are incredibly hit and miss and require its own play style including nukes to deal with tank line as ghost tech is incredibly situational dependent in tvt whereas marine tank is tried and true.
It takes more work to micro, but no question that 2 marines, a ghost, and 2 scvs beats four marines and a hellion. The ghost snipes two of the four marines off the bat, and you're left with equal marines, plus a ghost and two scvs versus a hellion. No contest. The goal is building a bunker with one of the scvs near the mineral line. Usually not a game winner right at the beginning, but it can be painful, if done right.
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So in your opinion nothing is a tech structure except Ghost Academy and Fusion Core? Okay then.
I really don't see how you can argue that you having a Ghost Academy and him having a Factory and Starport = you're ahead in tech. Well, you obviously have stopped thinking critically about anything I'm saying as I didn't claim either of those two statements.
NaDa can come post some retarded ass BC rush build and if anyone argues against it he says "ok play me and you'll lose" Has he ever done that? Besides even if NaDa rushes straight for a BC he won't win.
Look at pro tournament play, I think there's been two games where a player opened fast Ghost, one where TLO got wrecked by NaDa and another one in Code A that I can't recall right now (but the Ghosting player also got wrecked). Did they do the build in the OP?
I've played around with every sort of Ghost or whatever opening because I hated Tank Viking back in the day in TvT, you will lose or be behind to any sort of 1 base Tank push or fast tech build that doesn't cut corners for defense. loled,the entire reason why I asked if you wanted first hand experience was because that's exactly what you're lacking. I've played more than 3x the games you have. This is clearly seen by you're notions concerning the build, more specifically:You also must kill at least 3 or 4 SCVs to come even, because you're throwing away 2 SCVs + the mining time for them. Who said that you lose those 2 scv's if you see a bunker? I'd gladly lose about a minute and 1/2 of mining time for 2 scvs for a chance to pull 7 workers ahead.
I'm through explaining how incorrect you are on so many fronts, PM me if you still would like to see the light.
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I like to pump out a reaper after my first marine to do some harassing/scouting.
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I like to pump out a reaper after my first marine to do some harassing/scouting. Why? Reapers take a very long time to build, which would nullify the whole point of the build.
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I like to push with a marauder/reaper/ghost composition instead of a marines*2/ghost one. It delays the build by a bit (about 30 seconds), but this definitely destroys any bio/hellions composition. Marauder and ghost can kite quite well together (same range, same firerate, you have concussive shell).
If there is a bunker or a fast tank, just go back and transition out of this. Otherwise you'll be able to deal great damage. This build works decently for me (about 50% win, mid/high master).
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What were you trying to achieve with this open build? I was pretty confused through the whole replay to be honest.
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Done this opening 4 times now.
I had one T that was completely bunkered in. I just kept him on 1 base and crushed him afterwards.
All the others tried some weird banshee openings and they were kinda confused, killed 10 SCV's. Made a CC and transitioned into Marauders & some tanks and crushed them. 
Nice opening, at least on my level (Gold - Plat)
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On May 24 2011 10:36 Curu wrote:
The weakness to this isn't Tanks, it's a Bunker. If the opponent gets a Bunker, pretty much any build comes out ahead against this one. If you can catch them doing a Bunker-less 1/1/1, you can do some hefty damage with this though. I'd even say Blueflame openings counter this one though, you're going to be hard-pressed to stop a Blueflame drop with 1 Rax worth of Marines/Ghost.
Oh yeah, I forgot about bunkers. They're brutal against Ghosts, and they're usually used to deny scouting for a cheese like 2port cloaked banshees. Meaning you have to scan instead of using a MULE 
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Been lately doing similar ( well pretty close to exact) build and it works really well, I usually keep making ghosts off one gas while making a cc and another barracks.
You can do alot of damage with unusual timing attacks with this build.
One bunker is not enough to shut down ghosts. Snipe has a fantastic 10 range you can abuse.
Later on I go for fast double ups and double medivacs, use remaining ghosts to emp the opponents medivacs and you can roll them over.
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On May 26 2011 18:23 Kostoglotov wrote:
I like to push with a marauder/reaper/ghost composition instead of a marines*2/ghost one. It delays the build by a bit (about 30 seconds), but this definitely destroys any bio/hellions composition. Marauder and ghost can kite quite well together (same range, same firerate, you have concussive shell).
If there is a bunker or a fast tank, just go back and transition out of this. Otherwise you'll be able to deal great damage. This build works decently for me (about 50% win, mid/high master).
I can see how that would delay the push by 30 seconds for switching up the unit build times. However, for gas requirement (and extra 75) will delay the start time of the marauder by 40 seconds (mining @ 114/minute), which will take an additional 30 seconds to build, putting the total push time back a whole
70 seconds.
I feel like that is too late. Replay?
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Meaning you have to scan instead of using a MULE You shouldn't ever have to scan to see two port cloaked banshee, its fairly obvious once you see the double gas so early.
One bunker is not enough to secure a fast expansion against ghosts. Snipe has a fantastic 10 range you can abuse. Confused as to how this is relevant, you can't snipe bunkers.
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You can go around the bunker.
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On May 27 2011 03:13 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
You can go around the bunker.
What if the bunker is at the top of a ramp as in for a 1base cheese? You can't avoid it that way.
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On May 27 2011 03:06 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 18:23 Kostoglotov wrote:
I like to push with a marauder/reaper/ghost composition instead of a marines*2/ghost one. It delays the build by a bit (about 30 seconds), but this definitely destroys any bio/hellions composition. Marauder and ghost can kite quite well together (same range, same firerate, you have concussive shell).
If there is a bunker or a fast tank, just go back and transition out of this. Otherwise you'll be able to deal great damage. This build works decently for me (about 50% win, mid/high master). I can see how that would delay the push by 30 seconds for switching up the unit build times. However, for gas requirement (and extra 75) will delay the start time of the marauder by 40 seconds (mining @ 114/minute), which will take an additional 30 seconds to build, putting the total push time back a whole 70 seconds. I feel like that is too late. Replay?
Just doing the math, I don't see why it would require an additional 70 seconds. What's important isn't just the total amount of gas required, but also when you need to spend it.
In the 25 seconds it takes to build the tech lab on the barracks, you'll get about 50 gas. Get the reaper first. As it builds, you'll get another 85 gas or so, enough for the ghost academy and the marauder when the reaper is finished. You should have about 70 gas left over after the marauder is done (about 60 collected as the marauder builds, and another 10 from when it started). Which would take another 16 seconds or so, not 40, so a total time difference of 41 seconds (including the additional 25 seconds in build time).
(I can't recall the last time I dropped a tech lab without any marines first, so it's possible that the gap would be more or less than 41 seconds, depending on whether you're north or south of 25 gas when the barracks finishes.)
Anywho, guess I'll have to try it out this weekend...thanks for the variation!
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On May 27 2011 03:45 Aoi_10 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 03:06 Captain Soban wrote:On May 26 2011 18:23 Kostoglotov wrote:
I like to push with a marauder/reaper/ghost composition instead of a marines*2/ghost one. It delays the build by a bit (about 30 seconds), but this definitely destroys any bio/hellions composition. Marauder and ghost can kite quite well together (same range, same firerate, you have concussive shell).
If there is a bunker or a fast tank, just go back and transition out of this. Otherwise you'll be able to deal great damage. This build works decently for me (about 50% win, mid/high master). I can see how that would delay the push by 30 seconds for switching up the unit build times. However, for gas requirement (and extra 75) will delay the start time of the marauder by 40 seconds (mining @ 114/minute), which will take an additional 30 seconds to build, putting the total push time back a whole 70 seconds. I feel like that is too late. Replay? Just doing the math, I don't see why it would require an additional 70 seconds. What's important isn't just the total amount of gas required, but also when you need to spend it. In the 25 seconds it takes to build the tech lab on the barracks, you'll get about 50 gas. Get the reaper first. As it builds, you'll get another 85 gas or so, enough for the ghost academy and the marauder when the reaper is finished. You should have about 70 gas left over after the marauder is done (about 60 collected as the marauder builds, and another 10 from when it started). Which would take another 16 seconds or so, not 40, so a total time difference of 41 seconds (including the additional 25 seconds in build time). (I can't recall the last time I dropped a tech lab without any marines first, so it's possible that the gap would be more or less than 41 seconds, depending on whether you're north or south of 25 gas when the barracks finishes.) Anywho, guess I'll have to try it out this weekend...thanks for the variation! Just played it out, push comes 50 seconds later. If feel like all of this is irrelevant seeing that by then a tank could be out, the chances of running into a completed bunker is higher, and it just doesn't give that big of an advantage to justify.
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What do you do if the opponent has walled-in? I know it's less common in TvT but many still do. It would take forever for that small force to break through a wall-in. Do you just turn around at that point?
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On May 27 2011 06:06 Melix wrote:
What do you do if the opponent has walled-in? I know it's less common in TvT but many still do. It would take forever for that small force to break through a wall-in. Do you just turn around at that point?
Depends what they have inside the wall. If just marines, sic the scv's on one of the supply depots, snipe the marines, and take down the depo.
If they have a tank, run away. (Then ask them in chat why they walled off if they made such a fast tank.)
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On May 27 2011 03:06 Captain Soban wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 18:23 Kostoglotov wrote:
I like to push with a marauder/reaper/ghost composition instead of a marines*2/ghost one. It delays the build by a bit (about 30 seconds), but this definitely destroys any bio/hellions composition. Marauder and ghost can kite quite well together (same range, same firerate, you have concussive shell).
If there is a bunker or a fast tank, just go back and transition out of this. Otherwise you'll be able to deal great damage. This build works decently for me (about 50% win, mid/high master). I can see how that would delay the push by 30 seconds for switching up the unit build times. However, for gas requirement (and extra 75) will delay the start time of the marauder by 40 seconds (mining @ 114/minute), which will take an additional 30 seconds to build, putting the total push time back a whole 70 seconds. I feel like that is too late. Replay?
Reaper/ghost :
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204871.jpg)
Ghost is out at 4:55
Reaper/marauder/ghost :
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-207118.jpg)
Ghost is out at 5:07
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209600.jpg)
Ghost is out at 5:10
The first two games are pre-patch, but the timing si basically the same, just put down your second refinery a bit later and you'll have 50 minerals instead of 50 gas to pay for a 200/100 ghost instead of a 150/150 one.
This timing is a bit later than the OP's one, but I'm more comfortable with it. The reaper deals great damage and can give vision on high ground, the marauder tanks way better than the two marines and his slow can be useful (against hellions or scv). Those two units also destroy a supply depot very fast (if there is a choke wall-in), and they can even take down a bunker if there is only one or two marines inside (it happens sometimes).
But I should try the OP version, it seems very decent too.
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There's another ghost first build around here that gives you 2 marines, 2 mauraders, 2 reapers, a helion, & a nuke by 7:30.
I found that if Terran has walled off the nuke will bring it down. With a scan or using the reapers for vision you can out range the tank with the nuke.
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Fuckin super duper!
I used this in a few ladder games and came out like 5-20 food ahead in some games, and taught this to one of my bronze friends and he slaughters every TvT lol
Sweet post!
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I was watching the replay and thinking to myself. Damn, he built that ghost acadamy early when it and the tech lab finish there is no way he is gonna have 150 gas. lol
My experiences with ghost first builds usually only end up with success on shorter rush distance maps. (Even though ghost first builds are fun as hell when they work.) A hellion was already out when you first attacked. So if your opponent builds a tech lab on the rax and flies the factory over to it (assuming 2 sec flight time) that leaves you 13 seconds before the first tank would be out. That is not a huge window of opportunity to say the least.
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IMO, fast ghost builds in TvT are too reliant on your opponent not doing at least one of three things: Getting a bunker, walling off, or opening bio (they'll have enough marines/marauders to deal with your comparatively weak-ass army in this case). If your opponent does any one of those three things then your early ghost will become a 350/150 investment (including the academy) which fails to be useful until cloaked banshees come out or you find yourself in a position in which you can break a tank contain with nukes (neither of which may even happen), making it pale in comparison to your other opening options - ie. stronger early aggression, fact/port tech, or a fast expand.
On top of that, even when your opponent doesn't do one of those three things, you really aren't going to do enough damage to make that early push worth it. At best, you'll break even, and you'll lose every unit you brought with you while you're at it.
It's a high risk, low reward build.
[edit]: I will say, however, (even if what I'm about to suggest were to work I still wouldn't do this for the reasons I mentioned above) that I would be interested in seeing how bunker rushing would fare if you were able to simply waltz into your opponent's base like you did in the replay you provided. You did bring two SCVs with you, after all, and they didn't seem to do much besides die. Why not make them more useful?
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The scvs were there to draw fire they were sent in first so you could poke up the ramp and gain vision of the high ground without putting the few units there at risk. Also even though the timing window for damage is small. You are still set up for normal play if you want to.
Watching the replay again he could have afforded an earlier scout (even before depo) without messing up any of the timinigs.
If the other guy walls off scouting that early will let you see it in advance before your rax finishes. If you can't scout all potential spawn locations by that time then the map is probably too large to do a ghost opening anyway.
Bunker at top can mess with the timings of the person who builds the bunker simply spreading out your marines at the top of the ramp can help vs hellion openings so the only opening your opponent could do off the top of my head I can think of that a bunker would be helpful in defense would be bio. So if they throw down a bunker you have done temporarily damage as they are down 100 minerals (temporarily) that could be used on something else. Think about it this way if you engineering bay block a zerg hatchery but don't complete the bay and cancel it when its about to die. Think about what you can't build or what it slows down 125 and 100 are not too different in start up costs. Canceling an Ebay should give you 94 minerals back (75% of 125) and salvaging a bunker is 75. But I don't see many people suggesting that an ebay doesn't hurt the terran too.
And if they open bio you already have your factory on the way and ghosts for emp on medivacs later in the game to prevent the overstimming of a bio army. When you do the push with 2 marines a ghost and 2 scvs and you see a shitton of infantry you know they opened bio you can just fall back. They won't have stim yet so your units will be just as fast as theirs. If you feel nervous you can throw down a bunker at that time.
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IMO, fast ghost builds in TvT are too reliant on your opponent not doing at least one of three things: Maybe, but I still stand by the fact that I'm ok without causing any damage. I've got some pretty useful tech for preforming Terran odd-jobs.
walling off Just shoot the wall brah. They can't send scv's to repair or marines if they have <7ish– and you can take out a depot before a tank can pop.
or you find yourself in a position in which you can break a tank contain with nukes This never, ever happens. First off, you simply can't break a contain with nukes, it doesn't work. Second, they won't have enough of a tank number advantage over you if your playing right to set up a contain.
which fails to be useful Ghost drops
harassment defense
Nuke pressure
emp medivacs
snipe marines
snipe scvs
force scans
force detection
etc.
On top of that, even when your opponent doesn't do one of those three things, you really aren't going to do enough damage to make that early push worth it. At best, you'll break even, and you'll lose every unit you brought with you while you're at it. You clearly didn't read the OP. You only lose all your units if they decide to pull scvs, and if they do, you can get about 7 if you play your cards right. I'd trade that small force for the econ lead that early in the game any day.
Why not make them more useful? No decent Terran will ever– ever let you finish a bunker in their base under the circumstances.
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EPT
