What do you do if the opponent has walled-in? I know it's less common in TvT but many still do. It would take forever for that small force to break through a wall-in. Do you just turn around at that point?

Aoi_10

United States155 Posts

May 26 2011 21:35 GMT

#42

On May 27 2011 06:06 Melix wrote:
What do you do if the opponent has walled-in? I know it's less common in TvT but many still do. It would take forever for that small force to break through a wall-in. Do you just turn around at that point?

Depends what they have inside the wall. If just marines, sic the scv's on one of the supply depots, snipe the marines, and take down the depo.

If they have a tank, run away. (Then ask them in chat why they walled off if they made such a fast tank.)

Kostoglotov

France28 Posts

May 26 2011 22:09 GMT

#43

On May 27 2011 03:06 Captain Soban wrote:

Show nested quote +

I can see how that would delay the push by 30 seconds for switching up the unit build times. However, for gas requirement (and extra 75) will delay the start time of the marauder by 40 seconds (mining @ 114/minute), which will take an additional 30 seconds to build, putting the total push time back a whole
70 seconds.

I feel like that is too late. Replay?

Reaper/ghost :

Ghost is out at 4:55

Reaper/marauder/ghost :

Ghost is out at 5:07

Ghost is out at 5:10

The first two games are pre-patch, but the timing si basically the same, just put down your second refinery a bit later and you'll have 50 minerals instead of 50 gas to pay for a 200/100 ghost instead of a 150/150 one.

This timing is a bit later than the OP's one, but I'm more comfortable with it. The reaper deals great damage and can give vision on high ground, the marauder tanks way better than the two marines and his slow can be useful (against hellions or scv). Those two units also destroy a supply depot very fast (if there is a choke wall-in), and they can even take down a bunker if there is only one or two marines inside (it happens sometimes).

But I should try the OP version, it seems very decent too.

DrLOAC

United States53 Posts

May 27 2011 02:17 GMT

#44

There's another ghost first build around here that gives you 2 marines, 2 mauraders, 2 reapers, a helion, & a nuke by 7:30.

I found that if Terran has walled off the nuke will bring it down. With a scan or using the reapers for vision you can out range the tank with the nuke.

Nemasyst.598

United States285 Posts

June 15 2011 21:34 GMT

#45

Fuckin super duper!
I used this in a few ladder games and came out like 5-20 food ahead in some games, and taught this to one of my bronze friends and he slaughters every TvT lol
Sweet post!

terranghost

United States980 Posts

June 16 2011 08:58 GMT

#46

I was watching the replay and thinking to myself. Damn, he built that ghost acadamy early when it and the tech lab finish there is no way he is gonna have 150 gas. lol

My experiences with ghost first builds usually only end up with success on shorter rush distance maps. (Even though ghost first builds are fun as hell when they work.) A hellion was already out when you first attacked. So if your opponent builds a tech lab on the rax and flies the factory over to it (assuming 2 sec flight time) that leaves you 13 seconds before the first tank would be out. That is not a huge window of opportunity to say the least.

Salts

Canada32 Posts

June 16 2011 12:12 GMT

#47

IMO, fast ghost builds in TvT are too reliant on your opponent not doing at least one of three things: Getting a bunker, walling off, or opening bio (they'll have enough marines/marauders to deal with your comparatively weak-ass army in this case). If your opponent does any one of those three things then your early ghost will become a 350/150 investment (including the academy) which fails to be useful until cloaked banshees come out or you find yourself in a position in which you can break a tank contain with nukes (neither of which may even happen), making it pale in comparison to your other opening options - ie. stronger early aggression, fact/port tech, or a fast expand.

On top of that, even when your opponent doesn't do one of those three things, you really aren't going to do enough damage to make that early push worth it. At best, you'll break even, and you'll lose every unit you brought with you while you're at it.

It's a high risk, low reward build.

[edit]: I will say, however, (even if what I'm about to suggest were to work I still wouldn't do this for the reasons I mentioned above) that I would be interested in seeing how bunker rushing would fare if you were able to simply waltz into your opponent's base like you did in the replay you provided. You did bring two SCVs with you, after all, and they didn't seem to do much besides die. Why not make them more useful?

terranghost

United States980 Posts

June 16 2011 20:19 GMT

#48

The scvs were there to draw fire they were sent in first so you could poke up the ramp and gain vision of the high ground without putting the few units there at risk. Also even though the timing window for damage is small. You are still set up for normal play if you want to.

Watching the replay again he could have afforded an earlier scout (even before depo) without messing up any of the timinigs.

If the other guy walls off scouting that early will let you see it in advance before your rax finishes. If you can't scout all potential spawn locations by that time then the map is probably too large to do a ghost opening anyway.

Bunker at top can mess with the timings of the person who builds the bunker simply spreading out your marines at the top of the ramp can help vs hellion openings so the only opening your opponent could do off the top of my head I can think of that a bunker would be helpful in defense would be bio. So if they throw down a bunker you have done temporarily damage as they are down 100 minerals (temporarily) that could be used on something else. Think about it this way if you engineering bay block a zerg hatchery but don't complete the bay and cancel it when its about to die. Think about what you can't build or what it slows down 125 and 100 are not too different in start up costs. Canceling an Ebay should give you 94 minerals back (75% of 125) and salvaging a bunker is 75. But I don't see many people suggesting that an ebay doesn't hurt the terran too.

And if they open bio you already have your factory on the way and ghosts for emp on medivacs later in the game to prevent the overstimming of a bio army. When you do the push with 2 marines a ghost and 2 scvs and you see a shitton of infantry you know they opened bio you can just fall back. They won't have stim yet so your units will be just as fast as theirs. If you feel nervous you can throw down a bunker at that time.

Captain Soban

United States119 Posts

June 20 2011 06:47 GMT

#49

IMO, fast ghost builds in TvT are too reliant on your opponent not doing at least one of three things:

Maybe, but I still stand by the fact that I'm ok without causing any damage. I've got some pretty useful tech for preforming Terran odd-jobs.

walling off

Just shoot the wall brah. They can't send scv's to repair or marines if they have <7ish– and you can take out a depot before a tank can pop.

or you find yourself in a position in which you can break a tank contain with nukes

This never, ever happens. First off, you simply can't break a contain with nukes, it doesn't work. Second, they won't have enough of a tank number advantage over you if your playing right to set up a contain.

which fails to be useful

Ghost drops
harassment defense
Nuke pressure
emp medivacs
snipe marines
snipe scvs
force scans
force detection
etc.

On top of that, even when your opponent doesn't do one of those three things, you really aren't going to do enough damage to make that early push worth it. At best, you'll break even, and you'll lose every unit you brought with you while you're at it.

You clearly didn't read the OP. You only lose all your units if they decide to pull scvs, and if they do, you can get about 7 if you play your cards right. I'd trade that small force for the econ lead that early in the game any day.

Why not make them more useful?

No decent Terran will ever– ever let you finish a bunker in their base under the circumstances.