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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
5-rax reaper is the incredibly hard to hold off flavor of the month in ZvT, then Blizz nerfs it. Early rax pressure is the incredibly hard to hold off flavor of the month in ZvT, then Blizz nerfs it. Now we find another one. What is with Terran being obsessed with finding an easy way to win? | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On May 19 2011 00:40 Falcon-sw wrote: What is with Terran being obsessed with finding an easy way to win? Didn't you read the OP ? I'm not terran, and definitely not obsessed with finding an easy way to win. I was just sharing an interesting all-in that has produced some good results. No need to turn this into a race hate thread. On an other note, I seriously doubt blizzard will need to nerf this. This is more like 6pooling if no one had ever thought of it or encountered it before. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
But I like the responses it does force. A low ground wallin now makes your opponent think "Oh shit 3 rax scv allin! Must prepare!" Because of this, it forces: Bunkers Forge + Cannons, sentries Spines and mass lings, banelings Playing off of this metagame, you can force your opponent to react and do something else sneaky behind it. For example, a 2 Port Banshee build vs a Zerg who overcommits to lings and spines will not be prepared at all. I like it :D | ||
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
On May 18 2011 23:58 Ipp wrote: Barracks/Depot wall should be up before the scout on most maps so they won't see you cutting SCV's or a late orbital. Was referring to the post above mine. But thanks. On May 18 2011 23:59 Myolden wrote: Yes they will notice only 12 svcs and delayed orbital straight through your low ramp wall? edit: too slow And thank you for not reading the post above mine which mine was clearly directed to. | ||
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
On May 19 2011 00:48 Synystyr wrote: It's kind of a one trick pony against an opponent who's never seen it before....you'll really never be able to get away with it twice. But I like the responses it does force. A low ground wallin now makes your opponent think "Oh shit 3 rax scv allin! Must prepare!" Because of this, it forces: Bunkers Forge + Cannons, sentries Spines and mass lings, banelings Playing off of this metagame, you can force your opponent to react and do something else sneaky behind it. For example, a 2 Port Banshee build vs a Zerg who overcommits to lings and spines will not be prepared at all. I like it :D Yeah I'm going to start playing around with this as well :D Except that now some zergs I've been playing are sending in a super early ovie to see if I'm doing the build, but that's why we have proxies. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On May 19 2011 00:53 LovE-z33k wrote: Yeah I'm going to start playing around with this as well :D Except that now some zergs I've been playing are sending in a super early ovie to see if I'm doing the build, but that's why we have proxies. You should always get in the habit of patrolling a marine or two along the sides of your base. Also hide your tech in the back of your base farthest from the overlord scouting paths. This is the optimal way of denying Zerg scouting ^^ | ||
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Rizell
Sweden237 Posts
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Bair
United States698 Posts
Close spawn on metal. He attempts to delay my hatch first so I get my pool first then my hatch shortly after. I scout a low wall off and my overlord will not be able to scout his base for a few minutes. Having read this thread already I throw up 2 spines, and then about 30 seconds later cancel my hatch and build 2 more spines since my scouting lings were just killed by a gaggle of SCVs. He attacks, loses all of his marines/scvs. I lose a spine and 4-5 drones. (Also, he then blamed zerg being OP as the reason his cheese did not work!) All in all OP, from a ZvT perspective at least I think that this was extremely strong while it was relatively unknown, but by making this thread and increasing the exposure you have made this build weaker. It is still strong, especially against hatch first, but certainly not 5 rax reaper strong. | ||
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
On May 19 2011 00:59 Synystyr wrote: You should always get in the habit of patrolling a marine or two along the sides of your base. Also hide your tech in the back of your base farthest from the overlord scouting paths. This is the optimal way of denying Zerg scouting ^^ Yeah I know, but last night for example, the zerg scouted with his ovie on Temple. we were close air pos and after he saw the main, he swung off the ledge and over to my ramp, saw the wall off, and then proceeded to my CC. By the time my first marine popped, he was headed over to the cliff right behind the minerals and there was nothing i could do. he had free vision of my scvs. | ||
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
On May 19 2011 00:45 Geiko wrote: Didn't you read the OP ? I'm not terran, and definitely not obsessed with finding an easy way to win. I was just sharing an interesting all-in that has produced some good results. No need to turn this into a race hate thread. On an other note, I seriously doubt blizzard will need to nerf this. This is more like 6pooling if no one had ever thought of it or encountered it before. I did read OP and I still wonder how can any protoss player have T as most played race after 60-70 games, when he is at ~220 games total?? In my opinion, it means that you played 60-70 T, less than that P and about ~100 games as R/Z  User was warned for this post | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
Stickies of particular interest: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210370 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113479 | ||
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closey
Hong Kong272 Posts
I have found tremendous success on this build on the ladder. Now almost 90% of my ladder experience are against terrans (many race switched like me lol). Here's a few variations on doing this build for MORE lethal play 1) Since almost every Terran does this build now, blind bunker your ramp and defeat his push, THEN counter push with this build if he retreats. 2) Instead of blind bunker'ing like above, attack later. You'll have more marines when he arrives. Forget about high ground advantage, though. You'll need SCVs. 3) Build barracks inside your base if you're gold-plat. Many players in this league pokes probe in, and run away asap instead of returning to scout so you can pull back easier if you fail. 4) Proxy the barracks in the back of your natural. It works on some maps and they'll think it's a 1 rax FE 5) Build/cancel /build/cancel SCV when probes come in. They will see your flashing command center and think you're not doing this build 6) proxy him outside of his natural 7) proxy in the middle of the map 8) proxy him inside his base 9) Against bunkers, do a run-by first so he can't SCV block his ramp. THEN strike his workers when out of bunker range and kill as much workers as possible before he pops his marines out of his bunker. You still have 50/50 chance to win if your micro is superior. 10) Against stalker counter push, 1 marine 1scv to focus fire on it and the rest continue your victory march 11) Against zerg, transition to 1base FE if he scouts it and makes one too many spine crawler. That supply call down is worth 100 minerals still! 12) Against zerg, do a run-by if he doens't make one too many spine crawler. Then it'll be a micro fest between you and his ling / drones 13) Against banelings...cry | ||
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VeryAverage
United States424 Posts
I've just been meta gaming this out and going gas/pool first. Keep a ling near the base and if you see the scvs roll, drop a spine. Depending on how far the rush distance is, it should finish in time. | ||
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angra86
United States56 Posts
Once you see him push out he's committed to attack, the longer you delay him him the weaker his force becomes to yours. By getting banes he'll have to move off creep to effectively dodge the banes. | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
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Tsuki.eu
Portugal1049 Posts
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asdfTT123
United States989 Posts
He then rage quitted 2 mins 56 seconds into the game. -_- | ||
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ViperaViRuS
United States82 Posts
I wonder if anyone's deliberately tried meta-gaming by opening with that Supply Depot and Barracks at bottom, and then transitioning into an ordinary opening? And able to use the fact they're actually ahead economically (due to the opponent overreacting and assuming this build was headed their way) to get ahead? Overall, tried this several times on the ladder, it seems to be very difficult to stop unless the appropriate buildings (Bunkers, Cannons and/or Spines) and/or units (Speedlings, Marines, Stalkers) are out, especially so if a player has good Marine micro. | ||
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aznkukuboi
120 Posts
This build works against protoss quite well. However, against another terran. I've come across many terrans who blind bunker immediately after they scout a wall of under the ramp. I get negated and lose my scvs and lose the game. | ||
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saxonhamish
Australia18 Posts
MASSIVE!! It is entirely possible that it will become standard for some matchups/build orders/play styles to wall at the bottom of the ramp for the following reasons... There is an accepted fact in game play in SC2. That is you send out a worker at 9-10 ish and you will most likely get to their base and be able to see what they are doing, how many gas, if they've cut workers, pool timings, saved chronos, etc. This is one of the most important parts of the game as it sets up your reactionary strategy for the early game. The main problem with this build is, as many people have noted, once you see a wall off at the bottom of the ramp, it could mean either a 3-rax all in, a fast expand, a heavy tech route, or even "standard" safe play. Then after that, scouting does not become possible or economical for some time. I call this the "Scouting Black Hole". The "Scouting Black Hole" already exists atm and is the period where scouting is practically impossible in between the inital scout dying/leaving and some time later where the cost of a scan or overlord sac is less than the benefit you are likely to gain from the scan or sac (or until you get a robo and an obs for Toss) I believe scouting and scout denying should be and has been up until this point, a battle within itself. Being able to lock out scouting at such an early stage with hardly any thought whatsoever is not beneficial for the game. Yes it leaves your buildings vulnerable, but the possibility of pulling out an outrageously early cheese should keep you on the defensive in the early game at least (someone mentioned that if stalkers come to kill the wall, you can take a different route on an all in and insta win) How to overcome the new Terran "scouting black hole"?? The only thing I can think of to overcome this against Terran is to send a 6 scout and hope the terran isnt in the last place you scout on a 4player map (I haven't timed it but I'm assuming you wouldn't make it in time), or risk playing blind. Really to fix this, I think Blizz should: 1. Change it so that you can't wall off the bottom of the ramp with 2x2 and a 3x3. 2. Give some sort of way to scout during the scouting black hole. 3. A more extreme fix would be to remove fog of war for the first 4-5 minutes of the game, this would deny all cheese, I don't think this is a good idea but I'm just throwing it out there. | ||
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