EPTFor now it's all i have.
[G] 9 pool ZvZ: Opening and follow up - Page 4
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aXa
France748 Posts
For now it's all i have. | ||
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leo23
United States3075 Posts
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purecarnagge
719 Posts
Its a great opening...and any novice can do this and win zvz with it... I usually transition into lair/baneling nest if they build spine crawlers to defend. I go right into muta and when lair is half way done I'm usually expanding. This strategy leaves them with fewer than 6 drones normally if they win the micro battle.... I would say this build is semi good vs12 pool, and very good against anything later than that. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On April 21 2011 22:09 aXa wrote: If he makes no mistakes at all (losing no drones to 9 pool and only droning after that) he will have an even count of roaches as you. So you have to simply be better than him in the later game (droning at the right time, expanding faster, better hydra/infestor switch, better upgrade) I really don't understand how you can possibly defend this statement. By going for a less economic build and sacrificing 3 drones early, then inflicting no damage, you believe the worst case scenario is that your roach count would be even. I'd ask you to back that up with replays, but it's been like two weeks and you've still only posted one. I still call bullshit on this entire strategy and your months of refining it for reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. Your dedication to the misuse of this build that you copied from nexlife (and refusal to give him credit) is uncanny. | ||
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BigJoe
United States210 Posts
I found that this even works against protoss. If you get them to wall in, you just set a few roaches outside of their base (possible aggression to make them canon up) all the while your taking map control and a huge economic advantage. I've switched to terran though and usually I can scout it in time to wall off. If you do this vs a good terran you will be at a disadvantage early in the game. Of course this is a ZvZ discussion but the idea is that you want to pressure your opponent so much that you can gain an economic advantage... very rarely do I see this become a game ender. One time I did this and the guy didnt even respond to my aggression... I killed every single one of his drones with my first set of lings lol. | ||
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SGxTriNe
United States6 Posts
I've been practicing this 9pool build and playing it in ladder and having good results. However, I recently played in a tournament game zvz and lost both my games doing this 9 pool. I really think this strategy has potential, but I am not sure entirely sure where I went wrong in both of these games. We are both Masters players. What I THINK I did wrong: -Went for burrow instead of more roaches -Missed the timing window to attack due to burrow -Got supply blocked toward the end, but his economy was soaring and mine was bad Game 1 What I THINK I did wrong: -I scouted he wasn't expanding, but put up an expansion myself which meant less roaches -I was worried about one base muta so I wasn't massing up roach -I fought down my ramp, perhaps sacrificing my expo or canceling it as he came would have been best Game 2 I feel like in the second game, lack of scouting information is what really hurt me. This build doesn't leave a ton of room for scouting, because every mineral / larvae is very important. Thanks for any kind of input. EDIT: My account in the games is LeeTDooD | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
Hey here is another replay, sadly i only play against protoss this time (check my other thread, just uploaded 5 ZvP) | ||
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DrunkApple
34 Posts
Hi axa I would like to ask your opinion on upcoming PTR. If build time for zealot really do decrease, then protoss can get their zealots out in time and block the ramp. Do you have any say in this? And why do protoss build forge whenever i go early pool? If I were protoss, i could have blocked the ling rush just with probes and zealots | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
 This is a ZvZ thread.About PTR change, i already said in my ZvP topic it will put an end to 9 pool like i use it. Protoss making a forge after gateway are just overreacting. They kept reacting bad btw, check my historic, near to only ZvP and 10 win in a row. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
Also, can you evaluate the advantages of a 9 pool vs a 10 pool? | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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letmegopls
105 Posts
and how hatch first is very rare? it's way more common than that 13p13g you're talking about. 9 pool is cool but the op is nonsense | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Angueo
Korea (South)53 Posts
10 pool has no chance to do damage against 14/14, because zergling will pop in time. I drone until +1 attack and +1 speed is 1/3 done. 2 gas is enough whith that many drones for this +1 push, into the late game you'll need quickly the 2 others though. Okay, me and a friend have tried out both 10 Pool and 9 Pool, and the 9 Pool is not economically efficient, which I will begin explaining on the third paragraph. However, you say that a 10 Pool has no chance to hurt a 14/14 build because they will have Zerglings in time, but in fact they won't and both builds will get Zerglings close to the same time (In a 10 Pool, they'll come out about 5 real life seconds late, but the Queen will be delayed in the 9 Pool), which is why I added this before the third paragraph. Let's break down the builds (10 Pool is bolded): 10/10 Spawning Pool|||9/10 Spawning Pool 9/10 Drone|||8/10 Drone 10/10 Overlord |||9/10 Drone 10/18 3 Zergling Pairs|||10/10 Overlord 13/18 1 Queen|||10/18 3 Zerglings 9 Pool Ending: 13/18 1 Queen One advantage off the top is that you can Extractor Trick a 10 Pool to be even more significant in an economy than the 9 Pool, but let's take that factor out and just do the most basic standard Pool builds. What me and a friend noticed is that the spawning of the Zerglings is very close because in the 10 Pool we would need to wait for the Spawning Pool to finish for about 5 - 7 real life seconds. Unfortunately for the 9 Pool, you have enough minerals for the first 3 Zerglings in time, but because time was wasted in trying to get an early Spawning Pool from the beginning, you lose economically. As for the 10 Pool, if you time it correctly, you will have 300 minerals when the Queen pops. Therefore, you can either scare the opponent by making them think you're going an aggressive build, or just flat out expand. However, let's say we're being aggressive as you want us to be from your first post. If that's true, then we'll have 150 Minerals on 3 Zerglings, and 150 Minerals on a Queen which allows the 10 Pool to pop a Queen faster. In turn, if we're attacking a base and want to win, the Queen allows us to easily develop a much stronger push after the first one. Like I said though, the timings of the Zergling pops aren't different, and the 10 Pool could easily outdo a close proximity 14Gas/14Pool since the 10 Pool will be able to reinforce much faster than the 9 Pool. ========================================================================= My personal suggestion is to just use an Extractor Trick Overpool. | ||
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letmegopls
105 Posts
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Sox
United States13 Posts
I just want to add some input to this thread since I am using major parts of Axa's strategy. I was 33XX master's league in season 1 and I'm currently 11XX master's league in season 2. I'm a zerg player. I was having lots of problems against protoss, but after I read and applied this strategy I have really improved my PvZ (my weakest MU). Currently I only use this style versus Protoss. Let me give some insight on my experiences with this build. First of all, I know that 9pool is economically inefficient. However, even at a relatively high level, I notice that it forces SO MANY MISTAKES. I have only played a few toss players who punished me properly for 9pooling. With that said, I believe 9 pooling is appropriate for this style of play because it forces mistakes and it gives a huge huge window to drone. I'm talking about nothing but droning for 2 larva inject cycles or more. I generally go 9pool, 11OL, 14 queen, 18 hatch, 18 gas, 17 OL. The rest plays out normally or however my opponent reacts. Sometimes I drone, sometimes I go for the kill if my opponent reacted poorly or I'm doing substantial damage. Whatever the outcome, I have generally done one of two things: 1) Pulled probes off the line to chase me 2) Killed a building or forced a super early cannon (forge + cannon) or even a second gateway This is all good because I have delayed his core, discouraged his fast expo if he was going for one, or forced a change in his plan. This is advantageous to me because I get to dictate the pace of the game from this point on. At the master's level, it's important to control the tempo of the game and I prefer to force my opponent to open differently than he/she is use to. The mid game works out as Axa describes, but I don't use infestors. I love them, but I feel that they are a bad counter to colossus. I prefer high aggression and corruptors. Since I'm teching so fast, I get broodlords or do a hard muta switch in the late game after I clear out his colossus. I always upgrade my air  I can't stress how important map control is. I can expand and always threaten a counter high econ bane/ling bust if he wants to attack my third. This post seems a little ranty, but I just wanted to give Axa some support and share my success by adopting major aspects of his strategy. I'm at school right now, so I don't have access to my replays, but I'll see what I can do when I get home. | ||
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IVXX
United States71 Posts
10ovie 10extractor trick ^ way better. | ||
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skypig
United States237 Posts
I am Master Z player and have used the 9 pool opener vs. Z quite often with good effect...I have found it to work even better vs. P. If you follow the build, micro well, and drone up at the right times, it works wonders. | ||
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watwat
48 Posts
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