EPT[G] 9 pool ZvZ: Opening and follow up - Page 3
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On April 15 2011 23:06 aXa wrote: Ah ah, you sincerely think that a 14/14 opening is far stronger than this build? It's the most comon build ever, 80% of zerg are opening like that in ZvZ, i would have noticed if they crushed me everytime. A zergling all in properly executed won't work. We are talking about 25 zergling against 3 Queen (not 2) with 2 tranfuse, 5 roach, AND 20 DRONE i can pull out if i see an all-in. Every all in can be deadly, but it is not more deadly against a 9 pool opening than a 14/14. It's pretty laughable, it is pretty much the same argument than in my ZvP build: "Standard opener is far more powerful, theoritically it does not worth to do the 9 pool because people will beat you everytime. If you win, it's only because you are better than your opponent" It is RIDICULOUS. I play against master player like me, they have the same level. Why do i have only 1 replay? It's only because i didn't plan to make a guide, so i didn't save the replay. Lately i didn't ladder much, you can check by yourself, so i have no ladder game in my recent game. But to get this one and only replay, i just played the FIRST GAME against a zerg player and submitted it. Check my profile you'll see i'm telling the truth. Check my opponent profile, he is as good as me. You are saying a bunch of crap: "Your 2 weak queen wall will not hold a zergling all in" of course 2 queen will not hold all by her own, but with 3 queen with transfuse 5 roaches and ZERGLING if i want because i have extra larva and mineral at this point of time, AND EVEN my drone i can pull out because it is a all-in, it seems obvious to anyone i can hold this easily against a same level opponent. You have not proven anything to this point, you are just trying to make theoretical point, that practice clearly negate. Go try this build on ladder by yourself, you will be impressed how much more game you will win. First and foremost, and this is meant to be helpful (although irrelevant)--if saving replays is an issue or not having saved replays, download SC2gears, which is a phenomenal replay-saving program. It is very light on your computer's resources and will very beautifully archive all your replays as well as give you immediate in-depth analysis on all your games as you finish them. Second, and this is meant to piss you off more-- your biggest problem is that I'm talking about a 5 minute push with 26 lings. You're talking about a 7 minute push with 26 lings. At 5 minutes, you have JUST completed your wall with your 2nd queen, and your first queen is only just now gaining the ability to transfuse. That means if I mineral walk (or even just a-move you), in 16 seconds you will have transfused one queen, lost the other one, and I will have possibly lost 4 lings, leaving me 22 versus 1 queen (the third that will pop shortly after I'm killing your drones) and possibly 4 lings of your own if you stopped droning the moment I attacked you. Under no circumstances will you ever win doing this if your opponent hits that 2 minute window in the beginning of the game. There are a lot of options for you to hold off early aggression, not the least of which would be dropping 1 or 2 spines, but then this comes back to the underlying assumption that I MUST ATTACK YOU. You opened aggressively and are behind economically, so if I make decisions solely based on that, then I am ahead in army, tech, and economy. There's no incentive for your enemy to ever do more than poke at you. And again, just because you say you've beaten players who open 14/14, and you may well have, it doesn't mean that they were any good. Most players up and into low master still are very rigid in their builds, and something like the initial 6 lings of a 9-pool can often be enough to de-hinge any build plans they might have had. Also, it sounds like you're a pretty good player, and so your ability to win with what is very obviously an inferior build is more a credit to your personal skill level, rather than your build's superiority. Until you can post more than one replay and demonstrate its effectiveness versus a gamut of builds, no one is going to take this build seriously. It fails a number of intuitive tests, and you don't do anything to sway this thinking. I love out-of-the-box creative play from zerg, but this is not really that type at all. It's different, and I guess that's cool, but it's inferior in almost every way to the "standard" openers, and so there's no reason to ever execute it under almost any circumstances. Finally, your ad hominem and "I'm a master player!!!" attitude doesn't add any support for your arguments. Only replays, and to a lesser extent actual logical reasoning, is going to help you. edit: Also, if you only look at your ZvP guide that you link in that thread, that is a very well-written post, and is littered with replays and analysis of those replays. That's the kind of stuff you need to have here. | ||
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
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Deadeight
United Kingdom1629 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
Here is the replay: I played against a friend of mine instead of waiting that a ladder guy doing a 1 base full ling rush. I intentionally made NO damage at all with the 6 first zergling as you will see. I intentionally delayed the roaches by a few second to represent a ladder game with mistakes. You can clearly see how i can hold this. In a normal ladder game, i will have kill at least 1 drone and made him lost some mining time. My roaches could have clearly be here to save the queens (all of them). And guess what, i'm so far ahead in drone because he made only zergling. It's not even close. False statement: 24 ling at 5 min ? LOL Roaches at 7 min ? LOL. [url blocked] | ||
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Onos
Canada107 Posts
On April 17 2011 21:22 aXa wrote: To all the haters and naive people who stated that a 1 base zergling rush could beat this strat easily. Here is the replay: I played against a friend of mine instead of waiting that a ladder guy doing a 1 base full ling rush. I intentionally made NO damage at all with the 6 first zergling as you will see. I intentionally delayed the roaches by a few second to represent a ladder game with mistakes. You can clearly see how i can hold this. In a normal ladder game, i will have kill at least 1 drone and made him lost some mining time. My roaches could have clearly be here to save the queens (all of them). And guess what, i'm so far ahead in drone because he made only zergling. It's not even close. False statement: 24 ling at 5 min ? LOL Roaches at 7 min ? LOL. [url blocked] You do realize that in your replay he breaks through your queens. And that is with him donating some lings for nothing early on, including a bad rally. So while you do not do damage with your lings (intentionally) he also makes some mistakes. And yes at 5:42 he has 17 zerglins + 5 he donated for nothing. Also your friend is at 700 minerals when he attacks. I can't quite put my finger on why, but I know that even while going lings I never get in that situation. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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BlueLagoon
France28 Posts
I noticed that if you did some drones kills, the opponent knows you are head. When I'm building my lings, most of the time: - My opponent is scouting me and he see I'm 9pooling - I send lings and I'm building my queen - The opponent must react and I'm forcing; 1 spine crawler or lings or pool when he hatch first which is good! Then my queen pop up first and I can heavily drone at the same time. I've just to micro my lings now and do maximum damage I can. With a good micro, I can kill one to 2 drones + force some mining time loss. I delay the 16th queen of their normal BO and I force almost 4-6 lings. If he is doing well with my lings, I go Roach as you said, if he loses 4 to 5 drones I go gas and BLing Nest before speed. I stop droning at 20 drones and Mass lings/Bling burst! He can't survive to this burst. I realize that most of the player, when they are far behind, used to do kamikaze things like MASS SPEEDLINGS. they think that they can go back into the game doing lot of damage. I'm just doing Blings on the top of the ramp and some in the mineral line... I destroy their last force and nothing can save them any more. (obvisouly, you'have to micro Bling to avoid the speedling on your Blings!) Anyway, This is a very agressive Build and he works well. 90% of the games end at the 9minutes mark. | ||
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Aerodynamic27
Canada115 Posts
I used this in all my ZvZs and my opponent usually over reacts and build spines, while I'm continueing this solid and refined build order. I usually would be so ahead of my opponent, in both drones and army. One thing I like to do is that after you make the roaches, instead of expanding, you go all-in with the queens 1 and 2, reinforcing with more roaches. You will have more roaches than the opponent and you should have about 4 transfuses on the queens.if your queens haven't arrived yet, just poke in with the roaches to try to do some damage, but retreat back to the queens for transfusion. Once the queens arrive, I like the plant a tumor in their creep so you have permanent vision in his base. Anyways, this build is awesome. Thank you. | ||
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b0uh34
France10 Posts
For a long time I used this build with a slight difference. I tech to roach instead of getting 2nd queen. It was not very efficient. I see your BO as a great improvement of mine because the main reaction of someone overcoming a 9 pool is to counter with speedling. But with the queen blocking the choke it will be easy to counter and then you get a very good advantage. So thanks for this BO | ||
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Nuggety
Netherlands5 Posts
Thanks man! Going to try to make it more smoother now. | ||
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genopath
80 Posts
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BlueLagoon
France28 Posts
Yes, Players used to react with a mass lings counter! If I scout that, I immediatly go for the Baneling Nest. I build some lings (10) and start speedlings after nest and I'm droning like a mad man + b2. 1 Baneling in the mineral 1 on the top of the ramp... and one more with my lings => Come on Mass lings I'm waiting for you =) => Free Win | ||
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
Would love to see more replays though, just to see how effective it is vs other builds. Gonna try it out myself soon. | ||
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gitarrojoe
Germany69 Posts
 !!! | ||
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
Replay here : http://drop.sc/6914 So against 2 base roach you say, you're supposed to have more roaches when you push at 80? I think i pushed a little too late but I don't think that you can outmass him if he knows that you won't be pushing anytime soon. He can just drone like crazy then mass up with more economy. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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closey
Hong Kong272 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
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