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Hi all, If you don't know me yet, let me introduce me again: I'm aXa, French zerg player 3300 master in Season 1. I like playing out of the box and figure out new style of play. If you are a little zerg having trouble in ZvP, go definitely check this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211407
If you don't like at all the current dynamic in ZvZ right now, which is basically a lot of zergling and baneling in early game, this guide is for you. This time, the opening and the follow up of this strategy are closely related.Opening & Goal9/10: pool 10/10: overlord 10/18: 6 zergling 13/18: queen ---> larva inject 15/18-->17/18: Drone 17/18: Overlord 19/18: Queen + extractor ---> creep tumor (only 1) As usual, the zergling are reaching the ennemy base at 17/18, so you have to be quick in order to micro the zergling AND produce the extra queen + extractor. You exactly have the right amount of money so you can't do it sooner to be more intensive on the zergling micro. The goal of this build is to apply pressure on your opponent while walling you off with the 2 queen you produced early. It will allow you to pretty much ignore mass zergling play: The wall off will buy you the extra time you need to produce roaches and so deny the mass zergling/baneling play. More so, it will put you ahead economically thanks to early larva inject. Your opponent will feel like he has to do some damage back, but your good defense will totally screw him up. I think the best reponse to this build is to totally ignore the early drone loss, to make a full-drone expand build. But still hard to manage has you have to be prepared to the timing push. No over-droning allowed. Finding your opponentOn 4 player map, you will sometime need to include a drone scouting if your initial overlord don't find your opponent in close air position. The right timing in this case is to bring a drone at 10/10 food, when your second overlord is just started. Just check the close ground position. If your opponent is neither close air or close ground, it means he is cross position. don't send your drone there, just redirect the zergling in the right direction. Do notice that 4 player map with only 3 spawning location like Shakuras plateau are pretty convenient for this build, because the initial overlord will scout one position in time. I don't use this build on Tal'darim altar or big GSL map. I go for expand first instead. The 6 initial ZerglingIf your opponent is going hatch firstFocus the hatch, your opponent will have to cancel it. Then go for the mineral line, he will have 4 ling max, so focus them so he will have to reproduce them. Anyway, it is pretty rare to see hatch first even on big map like tal darim altar, which is pretty sad. Pretty needless to say that canceling the hatch is enough damage for your 9 pool. If your opponent is going 13 pool 13 gasYour zergling will arrive in time, you will able to focus the drone. If your opponent is really good at managing is drone, he will lose only 2 to 3 drone, which is enough damage. If he screw up, he can lose them all, it already happen ^^but don't count on it. Anyway, the 9 pool is not supposed to be a direct win strategy at all. Don't let the drone surround you though. If your opponent is going 9 poolLet the best win ! Overlord placementYour overlord placement is SO important. I have a individual overlord placement for every map, so it is too long to describe. I'd rather simply tell the goal your overlord are supposed to achieve. Why is it so important? Well, after your initial push, you'll be locked in your base giving up map control for a long time. So you have to be ready to what your opponent is up to. -Scouting the timing of his natural expansion: Usually with your 1st or 2nd overlord, depending which one is in the closest position. When his expansion is finished, draw your overlord back to his 3rd. He doesn't need to die to a queen. -Scouting the attacking path between your base: In order to see his army compo and his timing attack. Always very useful in order to react properly and in time. I use 4 to 5 overlord in order to perform this mission, even on 2 player map. Follow upIt is important that your zergling die. It is actually better to free up the supply than making another overlord, because it is a tight build. 19/18 (-3 supply considering the zergling soon to be dead): Drone with the 1st larva inject finishing. -2nd larva inject: If you want to be super-safe, go send the queen at your ramp right now. If you feel confident he will not send early zergling, then simply wait to a 3rd larva inject, then wall off. if you see only 4 zergling coming, don't wall off. The queen in your base can manage them easily, so you can put a 3rd larva inject without any interruption. 22/26: 3rd Queen The third queen is here to keep a continue larva inject while the 2 other queen are the main defender unit. 24/26: 3 drone into gaz 24/26: Roach warren 24/26 --> 26/26: Drone 26/26: 2 overlord 26/42: 4 to 5 roach. -When your roaches are done, you should have 300 mineral, plant down your expansion and cover it with your roaches. Let the queen wall off the ramp. -When you have 100 gas, tech to lair. -As soon as your lair is started, take your second gas and start an evolution chamber. -Theoretically, you can keep droning up. Unless your opponent is rushing you, but i will discuss this further in another part of the thread. -As soon as you reach 100 gas again, start +1 attack -As soon as you reach 100 gas again, start roach speed -When your +1 range and roach speed is one third complete, start the mass roach production -You will be able to hit a timing around 80 pop, when your speed and upgrade finishes. Go crush your opponent face. Your one and only creep tumorIt's a very important detail. First it allow you to join your ramp quickly, as you know queen off creep are sooooo slow. Then, it will allow you to make your 4 initial roaches able to defend your expand against zergling. Without it, they can out micro you. After that, i usually don't spread the creep anymore, unless i take a third. Personnal choice here. Don't spend more energy on creep tumor, you will need it to transfuse your roach against any early agression. Against a 1 base mass zergling playerIt is maybe the most delicate build to hold against. He should attack you just when your 3rd queen is about to pop out. Send her IMMEDIATELY to the front to help the inital 2 queen. You should have just the right amount for 1 or 2 transfuse, so your queen should be able to hold until the roaches come. Needless yo say that after holding this rush, it will be pretty much GG, because he will be SO far behind economically. He spent larva on zergling whereas yours are drone. Against a 1 base roach all-inYou'll have 1 or 2 less roach than him. Don't freak out, as long as you are able to tranfuse your own roach (you should have 4 to 5 transfuse available at this point of time) you'll be ok. Start your roach production as soon as you see the push coming, and it's gg. Against a 1 base baneling bustHe is toasted. Queenies + tranfuse and roach in time. No match. This build was designed to counter this strat and then evolved. Against a 2 base mass zergling playerHe will not try to bust your ramp, but maybe will try to counter attack whenever your roaches are moving for the push. Just wait for 1 more round of roaches and let them at home with your 2 queen full of energy. it will be enough to hold, and your roach will reach his base so he has to back up. It is important to engage along a wall to prevent a complete surround. keep up the hit and run micro, and you will crush him easily. Against a standard roach user on 2 baseWell, you'll have more roach than him. Keep rally roach and push endlessly. If you see him making spincrawler and barely hold your push, just keep your roach army at his front without engaging and make an extra round of drone, then keep the roach production. If he manages to pull a even game at this point, then you are about to enter the late-game phase of the game, which i will discuss further in another part of this thread. Against a muta userYou have 3 queen and an evo chamber up. 1 spore crawler in mineral line is enough. Take your 4 gas and start hydralisk production. When you have enough hydra to move out, move out. Theory and practiceOf course, a well executed all in will do a lot of damage to you. A lot of time, i lose both queen and most part of the roaches. But they should never be able to do some economic damage. And you'll be like 10 to 15 drone ahead, so it's only a matter of time before they die. Managing your economy & late gameWhen your roach push reach your ennemy base, it is time for you to take 1 more gas, and to start +2 attack upgrade. It is important to know when to take an additional gas, as you don't want to have a lot of minerals that you can't spend while producing your roach army. Around 40 drone is the time for you to take your 3rd gas in order to produce roach and keep upgrading while keeping your money low. It will allow you to gain a roach number and an upgrade advantage all game long. But i honestly win 90% of my ZvZ, and 90% of this win are taken when my timing push occur. Feel free to do whatever you want in late game. Roach/hydra or Roach/infestor are both good. Why is this strategy good?You can find every component of a good strategy in this build: -Apply pressure: Mistakes are a big part of this game. You can't hope your opponent makes one, but you can definitely use pressure and harassment to force them. Forcing unit instead of drone and forcing agression instead of macro is the whole point here. -To have a plan: Going into a game with a clear plan will help you tremendously. Why is that? Because along with practice, you are gonna be able to master every stage of the game, whatever is your opponent doing. The other reason is that you NEED to be able to transition out of any situation. All-in are certainly important in this game, but only if you can manage a standard game as well. Follow up are key to play a good game. -To have an all around balanced build: Doing a build that has weaknesses should be avoided for the most part of the game. What i mean by that, is a build that can lose to another build automatically. For example, a 4 warp gate against a banshee with cloak build. A good build will allow you to respond whatever your opponent is doing. -Putting yourself in cost-efficient situation: Good harassing or defense are related to the damage your able to inflict compared to what it does cost you. In this build, using transfuse and roach to defend efficiently against a more expansive army is key. -Timing pushes: The way Zerg works makes timing push an even more important aspect of the game. Because unit and drone are all related to larvae, you need to know when it is time to drone and when is it time to produce an army. A good build along with efficient scouting will allow you to macro at the right time. A well used build will diminish the timing window where you are weak, and increase the timing window where your opponent is weak. ReplaysSadly i have no replay to show you, i need to go ladder and save the replay. I will update. EDIT: here is the first replay freshly played 2 base roach playZvZStandard1In this replay, on Shattered temple, we spawn on close air position. Only 2 drone kill so no early major mistake on my opponent behalf.The following event that happens in this replay are precisely what i described in this thread.
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Very thought out post, only briefly looked over it thus far but it looks to be well thought out, bookmarked for later :D Thanks for the post
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waiting on those replays.. sounds good in theory tho
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Nice strategy - I will definitely give this a try in a future ZvZ.
I have a question: when do you make your roach warren? Do you make it as soon as you have your first spare 150 minerals, or does it depend on what you scout at your opponent's base?
EDIT: I see now you said make the roach warren at 24/26.
Also, how do you stop a 7RR (7 roach rush) with this build? 2 queens at the ramp can't hold 7 roaches even with transfuse...it seems like your build may be weak to early roach rushes. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Well you get your 4 roaches + 2 queen with alot on energy against the 7 roach push in time. It is pretty much what i described in the part "Against a 1 base roach all-in"
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I don't understand why you don't pull drones and make a crawler if your opponent went hatch first. theres no reason not to do this as its a free win.
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Because i don't like all in and free win.
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On April 15 2011 03:52 ShoeFactory wrote: I don't understand why you don't pull drones and make a crawler if your opponent went hatch first. theres no reason not to do this as its a free win. What? Where do you intend to build this spinecrawler? At his building expo where you can't because there is no creep because it hasn't finished? Or after it's finished so he has plenty of time to build zerglings before your crawler is finished?
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Good Build, I use it all the time. I feel like you should give some respect to NEXlife for popularizing it, he uses it on his stream all the time.
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Never heard about NEXlife but i do respect every zerg player who use that awesome build
1st replay up, just played !
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On April 15 2011 04:26 aXa wrote:Never heard about NEXlife but i do respect every zerg player who use that awesome build 1st replay up, just played !
He was the zerg doing the 9pool in the Korean ZvZ on day9.
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Ah ok, but his build wasn't quite the same as mine, but the opening.
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On April 15 2011 04:04 Jago wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:52 ShoeFactory wrote: I don't understand why you don't pull drones and make a crawler if your opponent went hatch first. theres no reason not to do this as its a free win. What? Where do you intend to build this spinecrawler? At his building expo where you can't because there is no creep because it hasn't finished? Or after it's finished so he has plenty of time to build zerglings before your crawler is finished?
Maybe in his base? If you have more lings you force him to pull way more drones and attack the spinecrawler which makes your ling micro much easier and effective. If you have equal lings you force him to pull drones which will probably break you even if you cancel the spine before it dies. Also if the spine goes up it's a free win.
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This is quite a tight build, nice work.
I usually open 14g/14p and I find the best response to spotting an early pool is:
1) Put all drones on minerals immediately. This way you will have enough minerals to start a queen and 3 lots of lings when the pool finishes. 2) Drone up to 15, then build overlord. 3) Stockpile larvae. 4) As soon as the enemy lings enter the main base, pull all drones out onto the creep. Move them perpendicular to the enemy lings, and then a-move towards them. If the lings engage, you will get a great surround. Otherwise, just bully them until your lings pop - it's 15 drones vs. 6 lings. 5) If more lings are still coming, get 3 lots of lings yourself. If no more are on way, 2 lots of lings will suffice.
With good drone micro it's quite reasonable to lose 0-1 drones.
Because you've got such an early queen, you're actually not that far behind. But as you say, transitioning to a fast expand is probably the best counter, since your expansion is quite late here.
Here's a way of visualizing zerg build orders that I've been toying with (based on the fact that larva generation makes zerg somewhat turn based). Black lines indicate each larva generated by the hatchery, while red lines indicate larvae generated by injects. In cases where the 4 injected larvae are spent separately, the red lines are labeled with the number of larvae. Blue lines show start/end timings for important components of the build.
I think this visualization demonstrates how well timed your build is. The only major inefficiency I can see is the fact that I believe you're sitting on 3+ larvae from your roach warren onwards. Also, your 3rd queen seems a little early relative to the hatchery - it means you'll have great creep spread, but perhaps you could substitute that queen for an extra couple of drones.
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Thanks for this amazing add to this thread.
It is true there are a lot of larvae stockpiled at one moment. But its not really a great deal because shortly after i will use them all.
About 3rd queen, if i don't make it, the other player can abuse the fact i need to un-wall off pulling one queen to larva inject, plus the fact i need the 3rd queen to eventually hold a fast mass zergling push.
More about the 2 queen at the front: It is important to stockpile the energy (don't drop more than 1 creep tumor) in order to be in a good defensive position before the roach kick-off. I will have lose a incredible number of game without this energy because a 1 roach base all in will have more roaches everytime, so the transfuse are key.
But it is true that most games, i end with 3 queen, 1 with low energy on my main hatch, 1 with high energy on my expand, and a 3rd queen doing basically nothing It's a remote queen, critical to have in some situation you can't really ever predict.
I'm not sure to understand the whole chart, but i'm digging
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On April 15 2011 07:11 aXa wrote:Thanks for this amazing add to this thread. It is true there are a lot of larvae stockpiled at one moment. But its not really a great deal because shortly after i will use them all. About 3rd queen, if i don't make it, the other player can abuse the fact i need to un-wall off pulling one queen to larva inject, plus the fact i need the 3rd queen to eventually hold a fast mass zergling push. More about the 2 queen at the front: It is important to stockpile the energy (don't drop more than 1 creep tumor) in order to be in a good defensive position before the roach kick-off. I will have lose a incredible number of game without this energy because a 1 roach base all in will have more roaches everytime, so the transfuse are key. But it is true that most games, i end with 3 queen, 1 with low energy on my main hatch, 1 with high energy on my expand, and a 3rd queen doing basically nothing It's a remote queen, critical to have in some situation you can't really ever predict. I'm not sure to understand the whole chart, but i'm digging
Ah I see, it makes sense to include the third queen in the basic build then. Do you ever deviate if you're up against a 14g/14p and see an expansion around 20 though (assuming the opponent defended the initial 6 lings without any real damage)? If you stick to your build it looks like you're just behind in that case, because you have the same number of drones, your opponent's roaches should pop as yours are arriving, and your hatchery is much later. I've not tested it, but if you see a hatchery around the time you're about to start your roach warren, you could perhaps place a hatchery first (maybe even cancel the third queen, and slightly delay the roach warren). I think you'd transition into more or less an equal game - you would have an extra queen, while your opponent would have 4 extra lings.
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I'm not really sure about a hatch going up at 20 after a 14/14 opening. Sadly i don't have a lot of replays saved so i can't check if it already happened.
However i like playing safe, and i know that usually i never get over-droned, and that my timing push is quite strong considering the perfect balance of drone on 2 hatch to produce roach endlessly + the fast upgrade which make a big difference.
I will ladder more and hope to see the 20 hatch after 14/14 opening. Thx for the intel.
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All the time I'm using it, it's quite a free win ... in platinium league.
But, This not work well with some maps like scrap station (large ramp maps). You need a small ramp to hold the early Mass Lings rush / BLing. In these cases, adding a spine crawler is definitely safer. Except these maps, everything is going well.
Let me add something to your Build about Mutalisk Rush: I can notice that Mutalisk is no more a good answer to Mass Roach push. If your opponent do so, you just have to plant 2 spore crawler and starting to Mass Queen. You can transfuse Roach or queen on each other to keep your army alive. As soon as you reached 5 to 7 Queens... your army is "imba".
If you're going to late game, All your queens are precious because you can add some Ultralisk with your roaches. This is a very popular build at the moment and a good switch in a late game especially against P as you wrote on a previous post.
PS: J'attends toujours ta réponse en MP. Merci aXa
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I think it's important to note that this is not an original build, and also doesn't prevent you from losing to any mass zergling play whatsoever.
If you are false enough in your sense of security to believe 3 queens is going to hold you against mass ling, then to that I say: think again.
All I have to do is send a few drones to mineral walk and attack the back of the queen with the highest energy. Your utter lack of lings due to your heavy droning and reliance on these three queens only.
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On April 15 2011 11:00 michaelhasanalias wrote: I think it's important to note that this is not an original build, and also doesn't prevent you from losing to any mass zergling play whatsoever.
Actually no, as far as I can tell the roaches come out way before "mass ling" becomes an issue...I tested this build vs. Z and had 3 queens + 5 roaches on the ramp before my opponent's roach/ling all-in hit...a ling all-in would be owned even harder thanks to roaches + transfuse.
I think you underestimate how fast the roaches come out.
Please do post a replay if you follow aXa's build and still lose to early aggression; it shouldn't happen.
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On April 15 2011 11:12 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 11:00 michaelhasanalias wrote: I think it's important to note that this is not an original build, and also doesn't prevent you from losing to any mass zergling play whatsoever. Actually no, as far as I can tell the roaches come out way before "mass ling" becomes an issue...I tested this build vs. Z and had 3 queens + 5 roaches on the ramp before my opponent's roach/ling all-in hit...a ling all-in would be owned even harder thanks to roaches + transfuse. I think you underestimate how fast the roaches come out. Please do post a replay if you follow aXa's build and still lose to early aggression; it shouldn't happen.
You really have no idea what you're talking about. 6:20 is not early by any stretch. And double queen is tremendously weak versus any roach or mass speedling aggression. It's tremendous against early baneling all-ins, and that's why it was contrived some months ago. Trying to delude yourself into believing this is some macro build is misleading at best, and going to cause you a lot of headache on ladder at worst.
9 pool double queen is a tournament-style build that should only be used in a bo5 or some other situation where you have a good idea based on prior opponent knowledge that he could probably go fast banelings, and this build pretty much hard counters it. It's bad against almost anything else.
First, I would never execute this build because it's very poorly thought out.
Second, if you really think double queen will keep you safe from mass ling, you're super super wrong. The roaches in his own replay don't pop until 6:20. Any speedling aggression will hit by 5 minutes.
If you scout with your lings some double queen wall action with your first lings, all you need to do is send a couple drones to mineral walk.
On a tight ramp, only 4 zerglings can attack at once. But add to that the dps of four drones, and the high energy queen falls twice as fast, in about 8 seconds.
Why is this relevant? You'll lose one (zero if you micro that ling) of 20+ (26 for me) zerglings against 2 queens, and have drones to place spine crawlers or retreat to the base. And it's not like overpool speedling is an all-in.
I'd be more than happy to play against this build if you really think it's a good build. I'm telling you it's not good at all, and although this is seemingly a great OP, it's very flawed.
There's only 1 replay which is largely unconvincing that the 9 pool opening had anything to do with the game, as they were basically even until the end.
The bottom line is that you're advocating a non-economic opener in order to allow you to "macro" later. The understanding is that you feel you'll be attacked, or that you're safe because you sent 6 lings. If he holds the lings easily (which he will if he did any sort of pool first build before 15 pool), then he's already up 100-150 mineral advantange, in addition to not wasting money on the extra queen, nor capping the early larva / early drone production in favor of wasted, fruitless aggression.
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Yay. A build that can deal w/ zvz
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It's incredible how annoying can people be in this sort of thread.
If you are false enough in your sense of security to believe 3 queens is going to hold you against mass ling, then to that I say: think again.
You are talkind about a zergling all-in. In this case, you have 15 drone, i have more than 20, you will kill some of my queen, that's sure, but then the roaches pop out and the game is OVER.
First, I would never execute this build because it's very poorly thought out.
People still don't make difference between a valuable argument and statement.
I play this build for more than 4 month, it represent maybe 200 ladder games. I have NEVER lose to any zergling agression, and it's not my opponent fault, they are master as i am. And they will NEVER send the drone. This build is thought out to the near second, it has no hard counter because i'd plan everything like always. When i was diamond, i used to beat master zerg in craft cup with that build, without making more than the 2 early drone kill. What does it mean? It mean that beside the 6 early ling agression, the build is steady as hell and can deal with anything.
I don't care about whatever people like you can say, because they are just making statement without having experienced it. I would never make a guide that will lead zerg player to make mistakes. If the build had flaws and weakness, i would have describe them precisely, like i have describe how to be prepared against a mass 1 base zergling all-in.
As for the replay, the 9 pool has everything to do with my win. Yes we were "even" in terms of drone until the end, but i had 10 more roaches, and he had no stockpiled money. Don't you think it is because i had a clear plan and a perfect execution of it?
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On April 15 2011 21:32 aXa wrote:It's incredible how annoying can people be in this sort of thread. Show nested quote +If you are false enough in your sense of security to believe 3 queens is going to hold you against mass ling, then to that I say: think again. You are talkind about a zergling all-in. In this case, you have 15 drone, i have more than 20, you will kill some of my queen, that's sure, but then the roaches pop out and the game is OVER. Show nested quote +First, I would never execute this build because it's very poorly thought out. People still don't make difference between a valuable argument and statement. I play this build for more than 4 month, it represent maybe 200 ladder games. I have NEVER lose to any zergling agression, and it's not my opponent fault, they are master as i am. And they will NEVER send the drone. This build is thought out to the near second, it has no hard counter because i'd plan everything like always. When i was diamond, i used to beat master zerg in craft cup with that build, without making more than the 2 early drone kill. What does it mean? It mean that beside the 6 early ling agression, the build is steady as hell and can deal with anything. I don't care about whatever people like you can say, because they are just making statement without having experienced it. I would never make a guide that will lead zerg player to make mistakes. If the build had flaws and weakness, i would have describe them precisely, like i have describe how to be prepared against a mass 1 base zergling all-in. As for the replay, the 9 pool has everything to do with my win. Yes we were "even" in terms of drone until the end, but i had 10 more roaches, and he had no stockpiled money. Don't you think it is because i had a clear plan and a perfect execution of it?
Getting pissy because you poorly copied some pro's build is your problem.
Just so I'm clear, because somoene hasn't mineral walked drones, it's not a viable counter?
I'd be more than happy to 1v1 you and we can post the replay. You're build is almost auto lose to a number of zerg openers, not the least of which is 14gas/pool, fast roach, speedling aggression, and fast banelings (~4:20 banes). These are super common builds, and they would each have zero problem fending off the 6 9-pooled lings, and hit you before or as you complete your weak double queen wall.
I have to call you a liar if you can only post one replay in a build you've supposedly been working on for four months and 200 ladder games. Posting 1 replay if this is the case i simply unacceptable.
You don't go into detail on how this stacks up with any number of obviously superior zerg openings (not the least of which is something like 14gas/pool 100% standard play).
Again, it's not my intention to be an ass to you, but you're advocating what is very obviously an inferior build, and then getting pissed when someone takes it apart and reveals its weaknesses. It's cool that it's different, but it's not original, and it's not better than the run-of-the-mill builds that are currently out there EXCEPT for speedling/baneling.
The onus isn't on me to prove your build is shit, but on you to prove your build is actually viable. Not only did you NOT do that, but I showed how and why it's bad anyway.
There is no catch-all build in this game, and every build has weaknesses. Your build happens to have more weaknesses than most zerg openers. Almost any build that's very well executed is going to beat a poorly executed build by the other player because your macro will be better.
This doesn't mean your build is good... it means you as a player are simply better than your opponent.
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Axa, I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but Michael is pretty much right on the dot in the flaws of this kind of build.
This will lose straight up to a 14/14, the commonest of zerg openings. Your queen wall will not hold a ling all-in, not one that is properly executed. Even if your roaches pop, they will not save you. Lings can break 4-5 roaches on a ramp easily. This isn't 6 lings, this is 26+ we're talking about.
I'd be willing to play you also against this type of build to show you why the most standard of openings would destroy it, and we can post some replays. It's just not a viable opener unless your opponent went hatch first, in which a 6 pool would win anyhow.
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Ah ah, you sincerely think that a 14/14 opening is far stronger than this build? It's the most comon build ever, 80% of zerg are opening like that in ZvZ, i would have noticed if they crushed me everytime.
A zergling all in properly executed won't work. We are talking about 25 zergling against 3 Queen (not 2) with 2 tranfuse, 5 roach, AND 20 DRONE i can pull out if i see an all-in. Every all in can be deadly, but it is not more deadly against a 9 pool opening than a 14/14.
It's pretty laughable, it is pretty much the same argument than in my ZvP build: "Standard opener is far more powerful, theoritically it does not worth to do the 9 pool because people will beat you everytime. If you win, it's only because you are better than your opponent"
It is RIDICULOUS. I play against master player like me, they have the same level. Why do i have only 1 replay? It's only because i didn't plan to make a guide, so i didn't save the replay. Lately i didn't ladder much, you can check by yourself, so i have no ladder game in my recent game. But to get this one and only replay, i just played the FIRST GAME against a zerg player and submitted it. Check my profile you'll see i'm telling the truth. Check my opponent profile, he is as good as me.
You are saying a bunch of crap: "Your 2 weak queen wall will not hold a zergling all in" of course 2 queen will not hold all by her own, but with 3 queen with transfuse 5 roaches and ZERGLING if i want because i have extra larva and mineral at this point of time, AND EVEN my drone i can pull out because it is a all-in, it seems obvious to anyone i can hold this easily against a same level opponent.
You have not proven anything to this point, you are just trying to make theoretical point, that practice clearly negate.
Go try this build on ladder by yourself, you will be impressed how much more game you will win.
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Ask ANY pro-zerg, if given the choice, would they rather be in the 14/14 position or the 9pool position, they will take 14/14 EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Its a garunteed FREE WIN, if you know what you're doing. You may win a bunch of games by suprising people with an early pool, but thats about it. Look, I'm no where near the level of Idra, but if you want to zvz, your 9 pool against 14/14, I'll play you in a best of 9 or however many games you want until you realize a 9pool will not beat 14/14.
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You have not proven anything to this point, you are just trying to make theoretical point, that practice clearly negate.
Not to be a jerk, but one replay does not prove this massive practice. And that is all the proof we have right now from you. One replay vs. one strategy, which you yourself said is 'the first zerg' I found on the ladder. And this is for a strategy that supposedly counters every other zerg strategy.
Actually all your opponent has to do is expand behind a decent number of zerglings (20ish) while denying your second. Your 5 roaches will not be enough to protect your expo, as they will either have to move out and be surrounded, or give up the 'back' of your expo hatch to attacks.
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I don't actually need to prove i'm right more than you have to prove i'm wrong. As i said, i will post more replay as soon as i ladder.
You seriously don't know what you are talking about. First, 20 zergling is 10 less larva who could have been drone or more useful unit. Second, 20 zergling focusing the hatch will get destroyed by the roaches before the cancel. They can't outmicro the roaches because guess what, i planned the creep. The beauty of that, is the creep will be spread between the ramp and the hatch, but not at the back side of the hatch. So speedling not on creep. If the 20 zergling do try to kill the roaches, 5 roaches + 2 queen with almost 4 tranfuse to this point of time won't work. I experienced that many many time as you can see. You will need far more zergling to cancel this hatch, and it will become a 2 base zergling all in, which i described how to counter it: Make more early roaches to secure the hatch, then follow the plan and go crush him.
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I used to open up with this build, almost exactly the same, after several adjustments I even ended up adding the third queen, I had a lot of success with it in mid diamond and ever now and again feel lazy and want to just hope for an easy win and go 50/50 with this build, as an aside you can improve your build by doing an extractor trick and making an extra drone before the overlord, it delays your attack by about 4 in game seconds or so but I felt like the economic boost was well worth it since my lings still ended up at bases before pool is 75% done.
A good percentage of players open pool before gas in ZvZ and it's an auto loss to those builds, I find this build less useful on 4 player maps, most useful on XNC because of the spawning postions and close rush distance. If you get lucky its pretty good on meta as well, if you spawn in close positions, close air and cross both kinda suck, cross because of the long rush distance and semi out of the way path to your opponents base, and close by air because they get to scout you, sometimes its still to late for them to make their pool at a different timing though, but they will know in time to stockpile larva for lings.
As mentioned earlier in the thread you just run your drones around and pay for 3 sets of lings and a queen and just lose some mining time, in the end you are still far ahead economically. There is actually a game up right now of nestea opening up 9 pool on XNC vs a 14/13 and losing pretty handily in the macro game that follows simply because of the early drone lead that was lost.
So while this strategy definitely has its merits at lower levels of play, it does not stand up once you reach high diamond/low masters level of micro (unless they are bad and just all inned their way there I guess)
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I don't actually need to prove i'm right more than you have to prove i'm wrong. As i said, i will post more replay as soon as i ladder.
Actually you do. You are the one who is presenting, let's call it 'a new idea'. The burden of proof is on you to prove you are right more than on everyone else to prove you are wrong.
You seriously don't know what you are talking about. First, 20 zergling is 10 less larva who could have been drone or more useful unit. Second, 20 zergling focusing the hatch will get destroyed by the roaches before the cancel.
It's not that big of a difference from what you are doing. You lose 5 larva for 5 roaches and 1 larva for drone which builds roach warren. This puts you in a 4 larva advantage. However, you start with a worse economy (9 pool) even if you do damage and you get lots of gas quite fast for roaches (compared to someone going speed lings which will stop after 100 gas) and thus free 3 drones for more minerals.
They can't outmicro the roaches because guess what, i planned the creep. The beauty of that, is the creep will be spread between the ramp and the hatch, but not at the back side of the hatch. So speedling not on creep. If the 20 zergling do try to kill the roaches, 5 roaches + 2 queen with almost 4 tranfuse to this point of time won't work. I experienced that many many time as you can see.
I am not fighting close to your ramp, I am fighting behind your hatch and baiting your roaches out. Roaches on creep move at 2.95(approx) while speedlings off creep move at 4.69. In what world is it impossible to outmicro? If I actually surround the roaches far from the ramp, you have to either move the queen(s) to transfuse or let the roaches die. This depends a hell of a lot on map layout and how open the expo is. I also don't see how by the time you put down your hatch you have 2 extra queens with 100 energy, but I will double check your replay to see if you have that much.
You will need far more zergling to cancel this hatch, and it will become a 2 base zergling all in, which i described how to counter it: Make more early roaches to secure the hatch, then follow the plan and go crush him.
It doesn't have to. My hatch can come down before yours, since I get more minerals, since I am skipping the 3 on gas. All the lings have to do is annoy the hell of you and hope to cancel the hatch or kill some roaches.
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I am top master, and even with 1 drone killed (which is the less you can do) you're not enough behind to lose in a macro game... The guy who posted a chart showed pretty decently that 9 pool opening is pretty much the same as a 14/14 economically. It is a little bit weaker, but we are talking about maybe 75 minerals. Definitely not game changing. The truth is, your opponent has to make a perfect game to pull-out an even game. And a even game is what i means: both can still win after that.
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The guy who posted a chart showed pretty decently that 9 pool opening is pretty much the same as a 14/14 economically. It is a little bit weaker, but we are talking about maybe 75 minerals. Definitely not game changing. The truth is, your opponent has to make a perfect game to pull-out an even game. And a even game is what i means: both can still win after that.
I assume you mean this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464
Actually that thread does not contain a 9 pool, it contains at lowest a 10 pool. And by 4:20 when 10 pool starts to catch up you are 200+ minerals behind. That is also under the assumption of no lings. Any early lings screw the economy even more because you will start catching up even later.
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Just got pwned by this build. I play mid level masters zerg.. i open 14 gas/pool
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On April 16 2011 09:12 maniac1122 wrote: Just got pwned by this build. I play mid level masters zerg.. i open 14 gas/pool
Replay would help, more than just that.
As for the replay of the game you showed. You win due to 2 reasons:
1. I have no idea what that guy was doing. He keeps building stuff and canceling. Also a bit better macro on his part and he would have lost 0 drones not 2.
2. He does not scout and he drones/techs too much/too soon. When you attack he has 9 more drones (43 - 34) and you have like 10ish roaches more. He is also getting +2 weapons, while barely having a roach army.
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just to let you guys know, this is the basic framework started by NEXLife. shown by Day9 on http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4703220/
aXa, this is a very in-depth and well written breakdown with follow-through of the full build. thank you for taking the time to refine and post this amazing strategy.
PS. to the haters, this really works for a map w/ a small choke into the main.
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Wow, alot of theorycrafting trolls here and very little replays... This build is fun, and foremost it's not a damn retarded mass ling build.
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On April 17 2011 00:00 ayadew wrote: Wow, alot of theorycrafting trolls here and very little replays... This build is fun, and foremost it's not a damn retarded mass ling build.
That implies you have replays to share, right? Or are you just a troll with no replays also? And I have no idea what you mean by 'damn retarded mass ling build'. Any ZvZ which goes into mid game will be roach based.
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I've not judged it's effectiveness.
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On April 15 2011 23:06 aXa wrote: Ah ah, you sincerely think that a 14/14 opening is far stronger than this build? It's the most comon build ever, 80% of zerg are opening like that in ZvZ, i would have noticed if they crushed me everytime.
A zergling all in properly executed won't work. We are talking about 25 zergling against 3 Queen (not 2) with 2 tranfuse, 5 roach, AND 20 DRONE i can pull out if i see an all-in. Every all in can be deadly, but it is not more deadly against a 9 pool opening than a 14/14.
It's pretty laughable, it is pretty much the same argument than in my ZvP build: "Standard opener is far more powerful, theoritically it does not worth to do the 9 pool because people will beat you everytime. If you win, it's only because you are better than your opponent"
It is RIDICULOUS. I play against master player like me, they have the same level. Why do i have only 1 replay? It's only because i didn't plan to make a guide, so i didn't save the replay. Lately i didn't ladder much, you can check by yourself, so i have no ladder game in my recent game. But to get this one and only replay, i just played the FIRST GAME against a zerg player and submitted it. Check my profile you'll see i'm telling the truth. Check my opponent profile, he is as good as me.
You are saying a bunch of crap: "Your 2 weak queen wall will not hold a zergling all in" of course 2 queen will not hold all by her own, but with 3 queen with transfuse 5 roaches and ZERGLING if i want because i have extra larva and mineral at this point of time, AND EVEN my drone i can pull out because it is a all-in, it seems obvious to anyone i can hold this easily against a same level opponent.
You have not proven anything to this point, you are just trying to make theoretical point, that practice clearly negate.
Go try this build on ladder by yourself, you will be impressed how much more game you will win.
First and foremost, and this is meant to be helpful (although irrelevant)--if saving replays is an issue or not having saved replays, download SC2gears, which is a phenomenal replay-saving program. It is very light on your computer's resources and will very beautifully archive all your replays as well as give you immediate in-depth analysis on all your games as you finish them.
Second, and this is meant to piss you off more-- your biggest problem is that I'm talking about a 5 minute push with 26 lings. You're talking about a 7 minute push with 26 lings.
At 5 minutes, you have JUST completed your wall with your 2nd queen, and your first queen is only just now gaining the ability to transfuse. That means if I mineral walk (or even just a-move you), in 16 seconds you will have transfused one queen, lost the other one, and I will have possibly lost 4 lings, leaving me 22 versus 1 queen (the third that will pop shortly after I'm killing your drones) and possibly 4 lings of your own if you stopped droning the moment I attacked you.
Under no circumstances will you ever win doing this if your opponent hits that 2 minute window in the beginning of the game.
There are a lot of options for you to hold off early aggression, not the least of which would be dropping 1 or 2 spines, but then this comes back to the underlying assumption that I MUST ATTACK YOU.
You opened aggressively and are behind economically, so if I make decisions solely based on that, then I am ahead in army, tech, and economy. There's no incentive for your enemy to ever do more than poke at you.
And again, just because you say you've beaten players who open 14/14, and you may well have, it doesn't mean that they were any good. Most players up and into low master still are very rigid in their builds, and something like the initial 6 lings of a 9-pool can often be enough to de-hinge any build plans they might have had. Also, it sounds like you're a pretty good player, and so your ability to win with what is very obviously an inferior build is more a credit to your personal skill level, rather than your build's superiority.
Until you can post more than one replay and demonstrate its effectiveness versus a gamut of builds, no one is going to take this build seriously. It fails a number of intuitive tests, and you don't do anything to sway this thinking.
I love out-of-the-box creative play from zerg, but this is not really that type at all. It's different, and I guess that's cool, but it's inferior in almost every way to the "standard" openers, and so there's no reason to ever execute it under almost any circumstances.
Finally, your ad hominem and "I'm a master player!!!" attitude doesn't add any support for your arguments. Only replays, and to a lesser extent actual logical reasoning, is going to help you.
edit: Also, if you only look at your ZvP guide that you link in that thread, that is a very well-written post, and is littered with replays and analysis of those replays. That's the kind of stuff you need to have here.
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4-0 in ZvZ with this build. Thanks!
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To all the haters and naive people who stated that a 1 base zergling rush could beat this strat easily.
Here is the replay: I played against a friend of mine instead of waiting that a ladder guy doing a 1 base full ling rush.
I intentionally made NO damage at all with the 6 first zergling as you will see. I intentionally delayed the roaches by a few second to represent a ladder game with mistakes. You can clearly see how i can hold this. In a normal ladder game, i will have kill at least 1 drone and made him lost some mining time. My roaches could have clearly be here to save the queens (all of them). And guess what, i'm so far ahead in drone because he made only zergling. It's not even close.
False statement: 24 ling at 5 min ? LOL Roaches at 7 min ? LOL.
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On April 17 2011 21:22 aXa wrote: To all the haters and naive people who stated that a 1 base zergling rush could beat this strat easily.
Here is the replay: I played against a friend of mine instead of waiting that a ladder guy doing a 1 base full ling rush.
I intentionally made NO damage at all with the 6 first zergling as you will see. I intentionally delayed the roaches by a few second to represent a ladder game with mistakes. You can clearly see how i can hold this. In a normal ladder game, i will have kill at least 1 drone and made him lost some mining time. My roaches could have clearly be here to save the queens (all of them). And guess what, i'm so far ahead in drone because he made only zergling. It's not even close.
False statement: 24 ling at 5 min ? LOL Roaches at 7 min ? LOL.
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You do realize that in your replay he breaks through your queens. And that is with him donating some lings for nothing early on, including a bad rally. So while you do not do damage with your lings (intentionally) he also makes some mistakes. And yes at 5:42 he has 17 zerglins + 5 he donated for nothing.
Also your friend is at 700 minerals when he attacks. I can't quite put my finger on why, but I know that even while going lings I never get in that situation.
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yes he did break through my queens, because i made my roach intentionally a little bit later to show without any doubt that i can hold that easily. My roach would have come in time to save at least 2 queens.
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Thanks aXa, I found a good way to play ZvZ. I still adapted your build to my style (not a great style... but it's mine). I win at the moment 100% of my 6 last games using the 9pool.
I noticed that if you did some drones kills, the opponent knows you are head. When I'm building my lings, most of the time: - My opponent is scouting me and he see I'm 9pooling - I send lings and I'm building my queen - The opponent must react and I'm forcing; 1 spine crawler or lings or pool when he hatch first which is good!
Then my queen pop up first and I can heavily drone at the same time. I've just to micro my lings now and do maximum damage I can. With a good micro, I can kill one to 2 drones + force some mining time loss. I delay the 16th queen of their normal BO and I force almost 4-6 lings.
If he is doing well with my lings, I go Roach as you said, if he loses 4 to 5 drones I go gas and BLing Nest before speed. I stop droning at 20 drones and Mass lings/Bling burst! He can't survive to this burst.
I realize that most of the player, when they are far behind, used to do kamikaze things like MASS SPEEDLINGS. they think that they can go back into the game doing lot of damage. I'm just doing Blings on the top of the ramp and some in the mineral line... I destroy their last force and nothing can save them any more. (obvisouly, you'have to micro Bling to avoid the speedling on your Blings!)
Anyway, This is a very agressive Build and he works well. 90% of the games end at the 9minutes mark.
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THANKS ALOT FOR THIS! I used this in all my ZvZs and my opponent usually over reacts and build spines, while I'm continueing this solid and refined build order. I usually would be so ahead of my opponent, in both drones and army.
One thing I like to do is that after you make the roaches, instead of expanding, you go all-in with the queens 1 and 2, reinforcing with more roaches. You will have more roaches than the opponent and you should have about 4 transfuses on the queens.if your queens haven't arrived yet, just poke in with the roaches to try to do some damage, but retreat back to the queens for transfusion. Once the queens arrive, I like the plant a tumor in their creep so you have permanent vision in his base. Anyways, this build is awesome. Thank you.
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Dear Axa, For a long time I used this build with a slight difference. I tech to roach instead of getting 2nd queen. It was not very efficient. I see your BO as a great improvement of mine because the main reaction of someone overcoming a 9 pool is to counter with speedling. But with the queen blocking the choke it will be easy to counter and then you get a very good advantage. So thanks for this BO
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Tried this for the first time on ladder, was really messy (my own fault) but it worked ^^
Thanks man! Going to try to make it more smoother now.
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13P 13G can do well against a 9P. Watch idrA vs Root. CatZ. Even on steppes of War.
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b0uh34 ... Yes, Players used to react with a mass lings counter! If I scout that, I immediatly go for the Baneling Nest. I build some lings (10) and start speedlings after nest and I'm droning like a mad man + b2.
1 Baneling in the mineral 1 on the top of the ramp... and one more with my lings => Come on Mass lings I'm waiting for you =) => Free Win
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Great writeup, I've watched the replay, and I must admit, it looks pretty solid. Roach pops out in good time, and you have 3 queens which is pretty nice. The only thing I'm worried about is if he expands and hides an all-in behind it, e.g. Roachspeedling all in, massing up inside his main while you're droning up. I think that would be hard to hold off with just 5 roach 3 queen. And since you don't have any speedings to scout with, you won't know. Could possibly sacrifice an overlord at this time? Or would that hurt your plan too much?
Would love to see more replays though, just to see how effective it is vs other builds. Gonna try it out myself soon.
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Thx for this build. i will try it, because being agressive is nice and it looks solid. i read all the critics and they are right on one point. you can be beaten by a better player...the build is not flawless. but it shows a good way to be agressive and not having to adapt too much to your opponent. you zvp threat btw is awesome!!! just won 4 games in a row after not laddering for many weeks, against an opponent who i practised with sometimes. and lost most of the time. its an unbelievable strong build !!!
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Kay so I just played this build, and I did everything right, I think. Except my micro on the lings was VERY poor, bit of a mess up there. I ended up killing no drones, only stopping some mining time.
Replay here : http://drop.sc/6914
So against 2 base roach you say, you're supposed to have more roaches when you push at 80? I think i pushed a little too late but I don't think that you can outmass him if he knows that you won't be pushing anytime soon. He can just drone like crazy then mass up with more economy.
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If he makes no mistakes at all (losing no drones to 9 pool and only droning after that) he will have an even count of roaches as you. So you have to simply be better than him in the later game (droning at the right time, expanding faster, better hydra/infestor switch, better upgrade)
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Question: What if your opponent goes for a 10pool? (Don't say no one do it, I do it pretty often!)
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Well force as many zergling as you can, and pull back with your 6 ling alive to help your queen at the ramp in case of an early rush, then play accordingly to the plan
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Can you upload a few more replays? Also, I would like to play vs you doing this build, as now that I've lost with it I feel it's not that great in reality. We can practice it a few times, maybe you can prove me wrong about this build ^^
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For now it's all i have.
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Thanks man enjoying this build so far 7 out of 7 zvzs!
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This build works great on short/medium rush distances against zergs that get greedy!!! I added a specific change to this build...i scout with 1 drone. keep it alive...and right when my 6 lings are 10 seconds from going up his ramp i put down a spine...why...because he will pull drones off his mineral line. Why is this important. Because he only pulls some drones off his line. Now my 6 lings have a fighting chance at his mineral line or at my newly building spine crawler... keep the drones from meeting up unless he pulls all and tries to surround the lings... keep pumping lings...when it seems like things are going to fizzle add 1 drone to each ling made. It works well...i've never been stopped from doing damage...I have stopped 6 pools with this build though.
Its a great opening...and any novice can do this and win zvz with it... I usually transition into lair/baneling nest if they build spine crawlers to defend. I go right into muta and when lair is half way done I'm usually expanding. This strategy leaves them with fewer than 6 drones normally if they win the micro battle....
I would say this build is semi good vs12 pool, and very good against anything later than that.
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The entire point of this build is to avoid all-in and very short ZvZ. So i really don't like more than a 6 ling pressure.
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On April 21 2011 22:09 aXa wrote: If he makes no mistakes at all (losing no drones to 9 pool and only droning after that) he will have an even count of roaches as you. So you have to simply be better than him in the later game (droning at the right time, expanding faster, better hydra/infestor switch, better upgrade)
I really don't understand how you can possibly defend this statement.
By going for a less economic build and sacrificing 3 drones early, then inflicting no damage, you believe the worst case scenario is that your roach count would be even.
I'd ask you to back that up with replays, but it's been like two weeks and you've still only posted one. I still call bullshit on this entire strategy and your months of refining it for reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.
Your dedication to the misuse of this build that you copied from nexlife (and refusal to give him credit) is uncanny.
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I figured out a similar strategy a while ago and it won a large majority of my games for me. I would transition into roaches after strong aggression with some lings and that should put them into a position to where they would never want to drone.
I found that this even works against protoss. If you get them to wall in, you just set a few roaches outside of their base (possible aggression to make them canon up) all the while your taking map control and a huge economic advantage. I've switched to terran though and usually I can scout it in time to wall off. If you do this vs a good terran you will be at a disadvantage early in the game.
Of course this is a ZvZ discussion but the idea is that you want to pressure your opponent so much that you can gain an economic advantage... very rarely do I see this become a game ender. One time I did this and the guy didnt even respond to my aggression... I killed every single one of his drones with my first set of lings lol.
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Hi Axa, I've been practicing this 9pool build and playing it in ladder and having good results. However, I recently played in a tournament game zvz and lost both my games doing this 9 pool. I really think this strategy has potential, but I am not sure entirely sure where I went wrong in both of these games. We are both Masters players.
What I THINK I did wrong: -Went for burrow instead of more roaches -Missed the timing window to attack due to burrow -Got supply blocked toward the end, but his economy was soaring and mine was bad Game 1
What I THINK I did wrong: -I scouted he wasn't expanding, but put up an expansion myself which meant less roaches -I was worried about one base muta so I wasn't massing up roach -I fought down my ramp, perhaps sacrificing my expo or canceling it as he came would have been best Game 2
I feel like in the second game, lack of scouting information is what really hurt me. This build doesn't leave a ton of room for scouting, because every mineral / larvae is very important. Thanks for any kind of input.
EDIT: My account in the games is LeeTDooD
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Hey here is another replay, sadly i only play against protoss this time (check my other thread, just uploaded 5 ZvP)
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hello axa Hi axa I would like to ask your opinion on upcoming PTR. If build time for zealot really do decrease, then protoss can get their zealots out in time and block the ramp. Do you have any say in this? And why do protoss build forge whenever i go early pool? If I were protoss, i could have blocked the ling rush just with probes and zealots
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DrunkApple, you posted on the wrong topic This is a ZvZ thread.
About PTR change, i already said in my ZvP topic it will put an end to 9 pool like i use it. Protoss making a forge after gateway are just overreacting. They kept reacting bad btw, check my historic, near to only ZvP and 10 win in a row.
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Hey, I really like this build, and I've been working on a 10 pool opener myself. I'm a low Master league Zerg, and this guide has definitely helped me with my own build, but my question is when you're doing this 2 base +1 Roach timing push, how much do you drone? Since you're operating on two gases, does it work out that you have extra minerals left over while producing Roaches to add more drones?
Also, can you evaluate the advantages of a 9 pool vs a 10 pool?
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10 pool has no chance to do damage against 14/14, because zergling will pop in time. I drone until +1 attack and +1 speed is 1/3 done. 2 gas is enough whith that many drones for this +1 push, into the late game you'll need quickly the 2 others though.
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man, no one goes 13p13g. and if they went, they wouldn't lose any drone to 9 pool. and how hatch first is very rare? it's way more common than that 13p13g you're talking about. 9 pool is cool but the op is nonsense
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Did you ever played this game? I don't quite understand how you can say that no zerg is going pool first standard build, as it is like 80% of zergs opening. Hatch first is quite rare on ZvZ because you lose automatically to any cheese. I don't quite understand how you can be so far away from reality..
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aXa:
10 pool has no chance to do damage against 14/14, because zergling will pop in time. I drone until +1 attack and +1 speed is 1/3 done. 2 gas is enough whith that many drones for this +1 push, into the late game you'll need quickly the 2 others though.
Okay, me and a friend have tried out both 10 Pool and 9 Pool, and the 9 Pool is not economically efficient, which I will begin explaining on the third paragraph.
However, you say that a 10 Pool has no chance to hurt a 14/14 build because they will have Zerglings in time, but in fact they won't and both builds will get Zerglings close to the same time (In a 10 Pool, they'll come out about 5 real life seconds late, but the Queen will be delayed in the 9 Pool), which is why I added this before the third paragraph.
Let's break down the builds (10 Pool is bolded): 10/10 Spawning Pool|||9/10 Spawning Pool 9/10 Drone|||8/10 Drone 10/10 Overlord |||9/10 Drone 10/18 3 Zergling Pairs|||10/10 Overlord 13/18 1 Queen|||10/18 3 Zerglings 9 Pool Ending: 13/18 1 Queen
One advantage off the top is that you can Extractor Trick a 10 Pool to be even more significant in an economy than the 9 Pool, but let's take that factor out and just do the most basic standard Pool builds.
What me and a friend noticed is that the spawning of the Zerglings is very close because in the 10 Pool we would need to wait for the Spawning Pool to finish for about 5 - 7 real life seconds. Unfortunately for the 9 Pool, you have enough minerals for the first 3 Zerglings in time, but because time was wasted in trying to get an early Spawning Pool from the beginning, you lose economically.
As for the 10 Pool, if you time it correctly, you will have 300 minerals when the Queen pops. Therefore, you can either scare the opponent by making them think you're going an aggressive build, or just flat out expand.
However, let's say we're being aggressive as you want us to be from your first post. If that's true, then we'll have 150 Minerals on 3 Zerglings, and 150 Minerals on a Queen which allows the 10 Pool to pop a Queen faster. In turn, if we're attacking a base and want to win, the Queen allows us to easily develop a much stronger push after the first one.
Like I said though, the timings of the Zergling pops aren't different, and the 10 Pool could easily outdo a close proximity 14Gas/14Pool since the 10 Pool will be able to reinforce much faster than the 9 Pool. ========================================================================= My personal suggestion is to just use an Extractor Trick Overpool.
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the standard opening you are talking about is gas first at 14. 14g14p which may lose 1-2 drones and some mining time to 9 pool. but the 13p13g you talked about in the op is a direct counter to 9p as it gets out zerglings in time on most maps so you don't lose any drones or mining time. and FE is as popular as 14g14p.
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Axa, fuck the haters, you have a good style going on.
I just want to add some input to this thread since I am using major parts of Axa's strategy. I was 33XX master's league in season 1 and I'm currently 11XX master's league in season 2. I'm a zerg player. I was having lots of problems against protoss, but after I read and applied this strategy I have really improved my PvZ (my weakest MU). Currently I only use this style versus Protoss.
Let me give some insight on my experiences with this build. First of all, I know that 9pool is economically inefficient. However, even at a relatively high level, I notice that it forces SO MANY MISTAKES. I have only played a few toss players who punished me properly for 9pooling. With that said, I believe 9 pooling is appropriate for this style of play because it forces mistakes and it gives a huge huge window to drone. I'm talking about nothing but droning for 2 larva inject cycles or more.
I generally go 9pool, 11OL, 14 queen, 18 hatch, 18 gas, 17 OL. The rest plays out normally or however my opponent reacts. Sometimes I drone, sometimes I go for the kill if my opponent reacted poorly or I'm doing substantial damage. Whatever the outcome, I have generally done one of two things:
1) Pulled probes off the line to chase me 2) Killed a building or forced a super early cannon (forge + cannon) or even a second gateway
This is all good because I have delayed his core, discouraged his fast expo if he was going for one, or forced a change in his plan. This is advantageous to me because I get to dictate the pace of the game from this point on. At the master's level, it's important to control the tempo of the game and I prefer to force my opponent to open differently than he/she is use to.
The mid game works out as Axa describes, but I don't use infestors. I love them, but I feel that they are a bad counter to colossus. I prefer high aggression and corruptors. Since I'm teching so fast, I get broodlords or do a hard muta switch in the late game after I clear out his colossus. I always upgrade my air
I can't stress how important map control is. I can expand and always threaten a counter high econ bane/ling bust if he wants to attack my third.
This post seems a little ranty, but I just wanted to give Axa some support and share my success by adopting major aspects of his strategy. I'm at school right now, so I don't have access to my replays, but I'll see what I can do when I get home.
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9pool 10ovie 10extractor trick
^ way better.
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Axa: your build still rocks. Ignore the flamers - they don't get it.
I am Master Z player and have used the 9 pool opener vs. Z quite often with good effect...I have found it to work even better vs. P. If you follow the build, micro well, and drone up at the right times, it works wonders.
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One formatting suggestion from a smartphone reader: ditch the center align in favor of left align
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On May 17 2011 11:47 IVXX wrote: 9pool 10ovie 10extractor trick
^ way better.
Just curious for more explanation,but I usually do extractor, then ovie. Does that actually make a difference?
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ovie first is better. you extractor trick afterwards so you dont sit on 3 larvae, basically squeezing in a drone for free. your 3rd set of lings will be right behind your first 2.
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People keep confusing 9 pool ZvZ thread with 9 pool ZvP's ^^
I wanted to say: Against protoss, the main point is not 9 pool, nor infestor, nor baneling. It is upgraded zergling. 3 3 crackling have an insane dps. But they are fragile to zealot. That's why you have to incorporate baneling. They also are weak to aoe like colossus, that's why you use infestor to NP them. They are also weak to force field, that's why you have to use ultralisk in late game. Just rush for upgrade, make sure you have a lot of larva, after that zergling are kinda free the same way marine or canon are. I started incorporate zergling drop in my play, they destroy base so fast it will keep your opponent on his toes.
Against zerg: 9 pool is great because it deny any chance of mass zergling/baneling play. If your opponent does commit to them, he will spend larva on zergling instead of drone and you'll be ahead. Being in a such defensive and cost efficient position is great. The proper resposne against 9 pool is too drone very very hard and expand as fast as possible. But the danger is: Will your opponent be prepared for your timing push, will he overdrone? It happens a lot, i just keep winning my ZvZ.
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Was looking for a new ZvP build. Great to see some French guys crafting new ones :D
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This is an awesome build, I have used it with great efficiency in top diamond, really like it.
I have been looking for this kind of build forever... The Spanishiwa build was just too difficult against other Zergs who do all-in builds.
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I just had a killing spree on ladder so here's some good replay
[url blocked]
.zip
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note: i read the op and nothing else. i have been a user of early pools for about 4months~ now in zvp/zvz, at very high level (top 100 masters us server) and i would like to say i'm a "master of early pools" so... your build order isn't exactly optimzied here is why:
your 9pool build isn't optimized, you can get an 11th drone and still have 3 larva when pool finishes: drone till 9 pool drone till 10 gas trick + 1 drone overlord. 3 larva + pool finish @ same time. gz you have better econ/build. (pool finishes 2:12, overlord 2:13, 3 larva 2:12) 11 drones. 100 minerals left @ 2:14.
*note tests were done on mlg XC with lazy-mineral stacking (meaning i didn't put much effort into it) OR you could 8pool and get the stuff out 10sec sooner w/ same drone count. drone till 8 pool drone till 10 overlord
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I do 9 pool a lot in zvz and something I've been doing differently is
9/10 pool 11/10 Overlord (Extractor trick then scout) 11/18 6 zlings 14 queen
The later overlord lets me get an extra drone/larva in exchange for 1-2 second slower lings.
I've also found that I'm unable to take out a 15 hatch directly with my 6 lings if they are good, and so I try to do enough drone damage to stop them from powering their 15 hatch instead.
This is what I do. Build a spine up against their hatchery/spawning pool with scouting drone. Try to limit it's surface area and create small chokes for your lings to fight the drones 1 on 1. This forces their drones to leave their mineral line to fight in a place where they can not mineral walk and surround your 6 lings! If you think your opponent is a noob, you can also try hiding the spine in the corner of his base.
Don't be afraid to cancel your spine! The damage your spine takes from drones is easily worth the lost mining time for your opponent. Just cancel spine and full retreat, your early queen will provide you with enough larva to surpass you're opponent in drone count.
Your opponent now has abundant larva, but not enough minerals to use them. Take advantage of this in anyway you see fit.
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So, I just read the posts above me, and it looks like my post is mostly redundant
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I tried using such a 9 pool myself after watching it on day9 but I always brought a scouting drone with me in case they hatch first so I can put down a spinecrawler. What I noticed however was that against a 14/14 I often couldn't kill any drone if he microes well and then I was behind.
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If you bring a drone you'll be behind indeed. You need every drone at your base and mining. If your building a spinecrawler, then you are pretty much all in which is not the aim of this build. Watch my replay and you'll see that with proper zergling control you always get to kill drone or zergling, in both case you are not behind if you play the next part properly.
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Axa, I would just like to say, you are a god amongst zerg players. I love both of your ZvP builds and your ZvZ builds. I've gotten so much better with those matchups now that I'm using your strategies. Could you by any chance write up a ZvT guide? I'd love to hear your ZvT strategy.
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For now, my ZvT strat is being roflstomp by marine whatever i throw at them. Yay.
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On July 01 2011 08:59 aXa wrote: For now, my ZvT strat is being roflstomp by marine whatever i throw at them. Yay.
But what about banelings? T.T
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It's the most useless unit against marine i would say ^^
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Hey, thx for the replays! I've been wondering about the nuances of this 9 pool build.
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On July 07 2011 00:27 aXa wrote: It's the most useless unit against marine i would say ^^
Axa, the one response that I really have trouble with is fast expand (~20) after my lings are dead, then hard droning while rushing for infestors, with 1-3 spine crawlers at the front.
Infestors are out just before/as my push arrives, and then I'm usually outdroned *and* I risk losing all my roaches for almost no damage. Any tips against this?
Rushing drop and abusing drops to force them to split forces, waste fungals, and generally stay in his base has worke occasionally when I scouted fast infestor tech and a spine wall, but I'm not sure this is a solid response. in general.
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On June 27 2011 02:36 BroboCop wrote: note: i read the op and nothing else. i have been a user of early pools for about 4months~ now in zvp/zvz, at very high level (top 100 masters us server) and i would like to say i'm a "master of early pools" so... your build order isn't exactly optimzied here is why:
your 9pool build isn't optimized, you can get an 11th drone and still have 3 larva when pool finishes: drone till 9 pool drone till 10 gas trick + 1 drone overlord. 3 larva + pool finish @ same time. gz you have better econ/build. (pool finishes 2:12, overlord 2:13, 3 larva 2:12) 11 drones. 100 minerals left @ 2:14.
*note tests were done on mlg XC with lazy-mineral stacking (meaning i didn't put much effort into it) OR you could 8pool and get the stuff out 10sec sooner w/ same drone count. drone till 8 pool drone till 10 overlord
Curious to hear your response to this Axa. Is there a reason you don't do either of these modifications? Have you tried them and found they cause a problem?
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On August 04 2011 22:44 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 02:36 BroboCop wrote: note: i read the op and nothing else. i have been a user of early pools for about 4months~ now in zvp/zvz, at very high level (top 100 masters us server) and i would like to say i'm a "master of early pools" so... your build order isn't exactly optimzied here is why:
your 9pool build isn't optimized, you can get an 11th drone and still have 3 larva when pool finishes: drone till 9 pool drone till 10 gas trick + 1 drone overlord. 3 larva + pool finish @ same time. gz you have better econ/build. (pool finishes 2:12, overlord 2:13, 3 larva 2:12) 11 drones. 100 minerals left @ 2:14.
*note tests were done on mlg XC with lazy-mineral stacking (meaning i didn't put much effort into it) OR you could 8pool and get the stuff out 10sec sooner w/ same drone count. drone till 8 pool drone till 10 overlord Curious to hear your response to this Axa. Is there a reason you don't do either of these modifications? Have you tried them and found they cause a problem?
I'm not Axa or as good as him, but I have tried the 11 drone thing and I didn't like it. A few comments: - I don't know what I'd have done wrong, but I never had 3 larvae when pool finished; the third larvae always popped a few seconds later. This actually does matter because 4 lings followed by 2 lings are much easier to kill with drones than 6 lings together, so in most games when the opponent reacted quickly I'd effectually have to delay my harrass until the last 2 lings arrive. On larger maps, the timing window for my lings to do damage before his lings pop (assuming 13g13p or 14g14p) is already fairly short, this cuts into it even more. - You delay all your queens by almost 50 minerals. Since the 11th drone will have not done any significant mining before you build the queen, and all three queens are built right in succession, every queen is delayed. IME this makes a huge difference if your opponent went straight for a ling counter and you're on a small map, as it means your wall-off will be later and you're much more vulnerable to ling pressure for a very short period. This is actually even worse on medium/large maps where your ramp is far from your creep, since I already run a few seconds short of blocking the ramp with Axa's build (because queens are so slow off creep).
What do you lose by not building that drone? You lose some mining time until Axa's build goes back to droning; but because you drone right after building lings, and all the way until the roach warren pops, I don't find this to be a problem. (The difference would be larger if this build were about prolonged aggression with the 9pool, or even if you just build a spine crawler with the lings, because then the drone difference does persist for much longer.)
In my experience over quite a few games, the timings are already pretty tight, and it's not worth the trade-off. I haven't done any side-to-side comparisons, though, so I'm happy to hear otherwise.
I have never tried the 8pool version, it sounds interesting. The "same drone count" is a red herring, I'd be curious how this affects your queen timing instead -- you'll delay the queen because you have fewer minerals mined. I'll give this a try, but TBH I'm pretty happy with the way the 9-pool timings work out.
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I tried this build and it seems like it's not good against anything. Against 15 hatch it's the worst, because you cant kill the hatch with only 6 lings. You cant do any economic damage because if the drones are microed well, none of them die to 6 lings. Against 14/14 none of the drones are going to die, he's going to get lings to clean it up very quickly, and then expand way before you while you wait for your 4 roaches.
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On August 04 2011 23:28 kushm4sta wrote: I tried this build and it seems like it's not good against anything. Against 15 hatch it's the worst, because you cant kill the hatch with only 6 lings. You cant do any economic damage because if the drones are microed well, none of them die to 6 lings. Against 14/14 none of the drones are going to die, he's going to get lings to clean it up very quickly, and then expand way before you while you wait for your 4 roaches.
TBH sounds like you're doing it wrong -- care to upload a replay each for vs hatch first and 14g14p?
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OK so I tested this out with both Axa's way, as well as squeezing in the extra drone w/ an OL before or after the extractor trick drone. This was done on bottom Xelnaga spawn. Did each one twice and got basically the same result:
Axa: First queen production started: 2:18 Zerglings pop: all at 2:33
10 OL followed by extractor drone: First queen production started: 2:29 Zerglings pop: from 2:33 to 2:38
11 extractor trick followed by OL: First queen production started: 2:25 Zerglings pop: from 2:33 to 2:36
If these tests are representative, we can definitely throw out the 10 OL followed by extractor drone as some have suggested.
The debate is then between Axa's method and 11 extractor followed by drone. Essentially Axa gives up one drone for 7 second earlier queen and 3 second earlier 6 lings. Whether that's a worthwhile trade likely depends heavily on the distance between spawns. For me, I've been doing the 11 OL version for the last few days I find it to be better in most situations. Would love to hear from Axa himself on this.
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Hey guys sorry i didn't notice that my thread was active.
First, the easy answer: If you're not able to cancel an hatch first with 6 ling, then maybe you should stop /dance with your ling and actually attack with them.
About extractor trick, it is just not safe. There is more chance than you'll do less damage, and you are more vulnerable to any all in because your queen and inject are late, delaying your roach as well.
Basically, it's a gamble: More resources but riskier. In theory extractor trick seems better, but i dropped maybe 10% of my winrate with it.
By the way, i just don't win anymore against protoss, whatever i do..
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On August 11 2011 22:39 aXa wrote: Hey guys sorry i didn't notice that my thread was active.
First, the easy answer: If you're not able to cancel an hatch first with 6 ling, then maybe you should stop /dance with your ling and actually attack with them.
About extractor trick, it is just not safe. There is more chance than you'll do less damage, and you are more vulnerable to any all in because your queen and inject are late, delaying your roach as well.
Basically, it's a gamble: More resources but riskier. In theory extractor trick seems better, but i dropped maybe 10% of my winrate with it.
Sounds similar to what I experienced, albeit at a much lower level. I also noticed that for some reason people have started to respond a lot better and often do the right counter now -- don't try to break the wall, they just expand quickly, drone hard, but get roaches (also +1) just in time to hold my attack.
You mentioned that you go hatch first on larger maps, out of curiosity, what's your plan when you hatch first? Do you have any special/unorthodox builds/timings you use and wouldn't mind sharing?
[/QUOTE] By the way, i just don't win anymore against protoss, whatever i do..[/QUOTE]
Glad it's not just me ;-)
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I don't have specifics strat because i play reactively when i go hatch first. I can share replay if you guys wants (Still have a decent win ratio in ZvZ).
By the way, 9 pool come more and more useless because you can only do it properly on 2 map in the pool (Xel naga & Shakuras Plateau).
[url blocked]
5 replay zipped. Tell me if you have trouble DL them
A word about those replay, and zergling usage in general. Playing against terran taught me that zergling are not good if not used correctly. You must have them in a different control group, in the middle of the map and ready to surround the marines so they can't run off from baneling.
In ZvZ, use your roach to pin your opponent army somewhere, and go cancel an expand he can't defend with zergling. You'll see what i mean in those replay.
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I dont understand how to play against this hatch first, is there a way to play hatch first and stay on even ground?
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