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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
If you are false enough in your sense of security to believe 3 queens is going to hold you against mass ling, then to that I say: think again. All I have to do is send a few drones to mineral walk and attack the back of the queen with the highest energy. Your utter lack of lings due to your heavy droning and reliance on these three queens only. | ||
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skypig
United States237 Posts
On April 15 2011 11:00 michaelhasanalias wrote: I think it's important to note that this is not an original build, and also doesn't prevent you from losing to any mass zergling play whatsoever. Actually no, as far as I can tell the roaches come out way before "mass ling" becomes an issue...I tested this build vs. Z and had 3 queens + 5 roaches on the ramp before my opponent's roach/ling all-in hit...a ling all-in would be owned even harder thanks to roaches + transfuse. I think you underestimate how fast the roaches come out. Please do post a replay if you follow aXa's build and still lose to early aggression; it shouldn't happen. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On April 15 2011 11:12 skypig wrote: Actually no, as far as I can tell the roaches come out way before "mass ling" becomes an issue...I tested this build vs. Z and had 3 queens + 5 roaches on the ramp before my opponent's roach/ling all-in hit...a ling all-in would be owned even harder thanks to roaches + transfuse. I think you underestimate how fast the roaches come out. Please do post a replay if you follow aXa's build and still lose to early aggression; it shouldn't happen. You really have no idea what you're talking about. 6:20 is not early by any stretch. And double queen is tremendously weak versus any roach or mass speedling aggression. It's tremendous against early baneling all-ins, and that's why it was contrived some months ago. Trying to delude yourself into believing this is some macro build is misleading at best, and going to cause you a lot of headache on ladder at worst. 9 pool double queen is a tournament-style build that should only be used in a bo5 or some other situation where you have a good idea based on prior opponent knowledge that he could probably go fast banelings, and this build pretty much hard counters it. It's bad against almost anything else. First, I would never execute this build because it's very poorly thought out. Second, if you really think double queen will keep you safe from mass ling, you're super super wrong. The roaches in his own replay don't pop until 6:20. Any speedling aggression will hit by 5 minutes. If you scout with your lings some double queen wall action with your first lings, all you need to do is send a couple drones to mineral walk. On a tight ramp, only 4 zerglings can attack at once. But add to that the dps of four drones, and the high energy queen falls twice as fast, in about 8 seconds. Why is this relevant? You'll lose one (zero if you micro that ling) of 20+ (26 for me) zerglings against 2 queens, and have drones to place spine crawlers or retreat to the base. And it's not like overpool speedling is an all-in. I'd be more than happy to play against this build if you really think it's a good build. I'm telling you it's not good at all, and although this is seemingly a great OP, it's very flawed. There's only 1 replay which is largely unconvincing that the 9 pool opening had anything to do with the game, as they were basically even until the end. The bottom line is that you're advocating a non-economic opener in order to allow you to "macro" later. The understanding is that you feel you'll be attacked, or that you're safe because you sent 6 lings. If he holds the lings easily (which he will if he did any sort of pool first build before 15 pool), then he's already up 100-150 mineral advantange, in addition to not wasting money on the extra queen, nor capping the early larva / early drone production in favor of wasted, fruitless aggression. | ||
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viii
United States266 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
If you are false enough in your sense of security to believe 3 queens is going to hold you against mass ling, then to that I say: think again. You are talkind about a zergling all-in. In this case, you have 15 drone, i have more than 20, you will kill some of my queen, that's sure, but then the roaches pop out and the game is OVER. First, I would never execute this build because it's very poorly thought out. People still don't make difference between a valuable argument and statement. I play this build for more than 4 month, it represent maybe 200 ladder games. I have NEVER lose to any zergling agression, and it's not my opponent fault, they are master as i am. And they will NEVER send the drone. This build is thought out to the near second, it has no hard counter because i'd plan everything like always. When i was diamond, i used to beat master zerg in craft cup with that build, without making more than the 2 early drone kill. What does it mean? It mean that beside the 6 early ling agression, the build is steady as hell and can deal with anything. I don't care about whatever people like you can say, because they are just making statement without having experienced it. I would never make a guide that will lead zerg player to make mistakes. If the build had flaws and weakness, i would have describe them precisely, like i have describe how to be prepared against a mass 1 base zergling all-in. As for the replay, the 9 pool has everything to do with my win. Yes we were "even" in terms of drone until the end, but i had 10 more roaches, and he had no stockpiled money. Don't you think it is because i had a clear plan and a perfect execution of it? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On April 15 2011 21:32 aXa wrote: It's incredible how annoying can people be in this sort of thread. You are talkind about a zergling all-in. In this case, you have 15 drone, i have more than 20, you will kill some of my queen, that's sure, but then the roaches pop out and the game is OVER. People still don't make difference between a valuable argument and statement. I play this build for more than 4 month, it represent maybe 200 ladder games. I have NEVER lose to any zergling agression, and it's not my opponent fault, they are master as i am. And they will NEVER send the drone. This build is thought out to the near second, it has no hard counter because i'd plan everything like always. When i was diamond, i used to beat master zerg in craft cup with that build, without making more than the 2 early drone kill. What does it mean? It mean that beside the 6 early ling agression, the build is steady as hell and can deal with anything. I don't care about whatever people like you can say, because they are just making statement without having experienced it. I would never make a guide that will lead zerg player to make mistakes. If the build had flaws and weakness, i would have describe them precisely, like i have describe how to be prepared against a mass 1 base zergling all-in. As for the replay, the 9 pool has everything to do with my win. Yes we were "even" in terms of drone until the end, but i had 10 more roaches, and he had no stockpiled money. Don't you think it is because i had a clear plan and a perfect execution of it? Getting pissy because you poorly copied some pro's build is your problem. Just so I'm clear, because somoene hasn't mineral walked drones, it's not a viable counter? I'd be more than happy to 1v1 you and we can post the replay. You're build is almost auto lose to a number of zerg openers, not the least of which is 14gas/pool, fast roach, speedling aggression, and fast banelings (~4:20 banes). These are super common builds, and they would each have zero problem fending off the 6 9-pooled lings, and hit you before or as you complete your weak double queen wall. I have to call you a liar if you can only post one replay in a build you've supposedly been working on for four months and 200 ladder games. Posting 1 replay if this is the case i simply unacceptable. You don't go into detail on how this stacks up with any number of obviously superior zerg openings (not the least of which is something like 14gas/pool 100% standard play). Again, it's not my intention to be an ass to you, but you're advocating what is very obviously an inferior build, and then getting pissed when someone takes it apart and reveals its weaknesses. It's cool that it's different, but it's not original, and it's not better than the run-of-the-mill builds that are currently out there EXCEPT for speedling/baneling. The onus isn't on me to prove your build is shit, but on you to prove your build is actually viable. Not only did you NOT do that, but I showed how and why it's bad anyway. There is no catch-all build in this game, and every build has weaknesses. Your build happens to have more weaknesses than most zerg openers. Almost any build that's very well executed is going to beat a poorly executed build by the other player because your macro will be better. This doesn't mean your build is good... it means you as a player are simply better than your opponent. | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
This will lose straight up to a 14/14, the commonest of zerg openings. Your queen wall will not hold a ling all-in, not one that is properly executed. Even if your roaches pop, they will not save you. Lings can break 4-5 roaches on a ramp easily. This isn't 6 lings, this is 26+ we're talking about. I'd be willing to play you also against this type of build to show you why the most standard of openings would destroy it, and we can post some replays. It's just not a viable opener unless your opponent went hatch first, in which a 6 pool would win anyhow. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
A zergling all in properly executed won't work. We are talking about 25 zergling against 3 Queen (not 2) with 2 tranfuse, 5 roach, AND 20 DRONE i can pull out if i see an all-in. Every all in can be deadly, but it is not more deadly against a 9 pool opening than a 14/14. It's pretty laughable, it is pretty much the same argument than in my ZvP build: "Standard opener is far more powerful, theoritically it does not worth to do the 9 pool because people will beat you everytime. If you win, it's only because you are better than your opponent" It is RIDICULOUS. I play against master player like me, they have the same level. Why do i have only 1 replay? It's only because i didn't plan to make a guide, so i didn't save the replay. Lately i didn't ladder much, you can check by yourself, so i have no ladder game in my recent game. But to get this one and only replay, i just played the FIRST GAME against a zerg player and submitted it. Check my profile you'll see i'm telling the truth. Check my opponent profile, he is as good as me. You are saying a bunch of crap: "Your 2 weak queen wall will not hold a zergling all in" of course 2 queen will not hold all by her own, but with 3 queen with transfuse 5 roaches and ZERGLING if i want because i have extra larva and mineral at this point of time, AND EVEN my drone i can pull out because it is a all-in, it seems obvious to anyone i can hold this easily against a same level opponent. You have not proven anything to this point, you are just trying to make theoretical point, that practice clearly negate. Go try this build on ladder by yourself, you will be impressed how much more game you will win. | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
Its a garunteed FREE WIN, if you know what you're doing. You may win a bunch of games by suprising people with an early pool, but thats about it. Look, I'm no where near the level of Idra, but if you want to zvz, your 9 pool against 14/14, I'll play you in a best of 9 or however many games you want until you realize a 9pool will not beat 14/14. | ||
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Onos
Canada107 Posts
You have not proven anything to this point, you are just trying to make theoretical point, that practice clearly negate. Not to be a jerk, but one replay does not prove this massive practice. And that is all the proof we have right now from you. One replay vs. one strategy, which you yourself said is 'the first zerg' I found on the ladder. And this is for a strategy that supposedly counters every other zerg strategy. Actually all your opponent has to do is expand behind a decent number of zerglings (20ish) while denying your second. Your 5 roaches will not be enough to protect your expo, as they will either have to move out and be surrounded, or give up the 'back' of your expo hatch to attacks. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
You seriously don't know what you are talking about. First, 20 zergling is 10 less larva who could have been drone or more useful unit. Second, 20 zergling focusing the hatch will get destroyed by the roaches before the cancel. They can't outmicro the roaches because guess what, i planned the creep. The beauty of that, is the creep will be spread between the ramp and the hatch, but not at the back side of the hatch. So speedling not on creep. If the 20 zergling do try to kill the roaches, 5 roaches + 2 queen with almost 4 tranfuse to this point of time won't work. I experienced that many many time as you can see. You will need far more zergling to cancel this hatch, and it will become a 2 base zergling all in, which i described how to counter it: Make more early roaches to secure the hatch, then follow the plan and go crush him. | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
I used to open up with this build, almost exactly the same, after several adjustments I even ended up adding the third queen, I had a lot of success with it in mid diamond and ever now and again feel lazy and want to just hope for an easy win and go 50/50 with this build, as an aside you can improve your build by doing an extractor trick and making an extra drone before the overlord, it delays your attack by about 4 in game seconds or so but I felt like the economic boost was well worth it since my lings still ended up at bases before pool is 75% done. A good percentage of players open pool before gas in ZvZ and it's an auto loss to those builds, I find this build less useful on 4 player maps, most useful on XNC because of the spawning postions and close rush distance. If you get lucky its pretty good on meta as well, if you spawn in close positions, close air and cross both kinda suck, cross because of the long rush distance and semi out of the way path to your opponents base, and close by air because they get to scout you, sometimes its still to late for them to make their pool at a different timing though, but they will know in time to stockpile larva for lings. As mentioned earlier in the thread you just run your drones around and pay for 3 sets of lings and a queen and just lose some mining time, in the end you are still far ahead economically. There is actually a game up right now of nestea opening up 9 pool on XNC vs a 14/13 and losing pretty handily in the macro game that follows simply because of the early drone lead that was lost. So while this strategy definitely has its merits at lower levels of play, it does not stand up once you reach high diamond/low masters level of micro (unless they are bad and just all inned their way there I guess) | ||
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Onos
Canada107 Posts
I don't actually need to prove i'm right more than you have to prove i'm wrong. As i said, i will post more replay as soon as i ladder. Actually you do. You are the one who is presenting, let's call it 'a new idea'. The burden of proof is on you to prove you are right more than on everyone else to prove you are wrong. You seriously don't know what you are talking about. First, 20 zergling is 10 less larva who could have been drone or more useful unit. Second, 20 zergling focusing the hatch will get destroyed by the roaches before the cancel. It's not that big of a difference from what you are doing. You lose 5 larva for 5 roaches and 1 larva for drone which builds roach warren. This puts you in a 4 larva advantage. However, you start with a worse economy (9 pool) even if you do damage and you get lots of gas quite fast for roaches (compared to someone going speed lings which will stop after 100 gas) and thus free 3 drones for more minerals. They can't outmicro the roaches because guess what, i planned the creep. The beauty of that, is the creep will be spread between the ramp and the hatch, but not at the back side of the hatch. So speedling not on creep. If the 20 zergling do try to kill the roaches, 5 roaches + 2 queen with almost 4 tranfuse to this point of time won't work. I experienced that many many time as you can see. I am not fighting close to your ramp, I am fighting behind your hatch and baiting your roaches out. Roaches on creep move at 2.95(approx) while speedlings off creep move at 4.69. In what world is it impossible to outmicro? If I actually surround the roaches far from the ramp, you have to either move the queen(s) to transfuse or let the roaches die. This depends a hell of a lot on map layout and how open the expo is. I also don't see how by the time you put down your hatch you have 2 extra queens with 100 energy, but I will double check your replay to see if you have that much. You will need far more zergling to cancel this hatch, and it will become a 2 base zergling all in, which i described how to counter it: Make more early roaches to secure the hatch, then follow the plan and go crush him. It doesn't have to. My hatch can come down before yours, since I get more minerals, since I am skipping the 3 on gas. All the lings have to do is annoy the hell of you and hope to cancel the hatch or kill some roaches. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Onos
Canada107 Posts
The guy who posted a chart showed pretty decently that 9 pool opening is pretty much the same as a 14/14 economically. It is a little bit weaker, but we are talking about maybe 75 minerals. Definitely not game changing. The truth is, your opponent has to make a perfect game to pull-out an even game. And a even game is what i means: both can still win after that. I assume you mean this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464 Actually that thread does not contain a 9 pool, it contains at lowest a 10 pool. And by 4:20 when 10 pool starts to catch up you are 200+ minerals behind. That is also under the assumption of no lings. Any early lings screw the economy even more because you will start catching up even later. | ||
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maniac1122
United States111 Posts
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Onos
Canada107 Posts
On April 16 2011 09:12 maniac1122 wrote: Just got pwned by this build. I play mid level masters zerg.. i open 14 gas/pool Replay would help, more than just that. As for the replay of the game you showed. You win due to 2 reasons: 1. I have no idea what that guy was doing. He keeps building stuff and canceling. Also a bit better macro on his part and he would have lost 0 drones not 2. 2. He does not scout and he drones/techs too much/too soon. When you attack he has 9 more drones (43 - 34) and you have like 10ish roaches more. He is also getting +2 weapons, while barely having a roach army. | ||
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ShadyPenguin
United States14 Posts
aXa, this is a very in-depth and well written breakdown with follow-through of the full build. thank you for taking the time to refine and post this amazing strategy. PS. to the haters, this really works for a map w/ a small choke into the main. | ||
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
This build is fun, and foremost it's not a damn retarded mass ling build. | ||
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Onos
Canada107 Posts
On April 17 2011 00:00 ayadew wrote: Wow, alot of theorycrafting trolls here and very little replays... This build is fun, and foremost it's not a damn retarded mass ling build. That implies you have replays to share, right? Or are you just a troll with no replays also? And I have no idea what you mean by 'damn retarded mass ling build'. Any ZvZ which goes into mid game will be roach based. | ||
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