EPTOn May 17 2011 11:47 IVXX wrote:
9pool
10ovie
10extractor trick
^ way better.
9pool
10ovie
10extractor trick
^ way better.
Just curious for more explanation,but I usually do extractor, then ovie. Does that actually make a difference?
[G] 9 pool ZvZ: Opening and follow up - Page 5
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Sox
United States13 Posts
Just curious for more explanation,but I usually do extractor, then ovie. Does that actually make a difference? | ||
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IVXX
United States71 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
I wanted to say: Against protoss, the main point is not 9 pool, nor infestor, nor baneling. It is upgraded zergling. 3 3 crackling have an insane dps. But they are fragile to zealot. That's why you have to incorporate baneling. They also are weak to aoe like colossus, that's why you use infestor to NP them. They are also weak to force field, that's why you have to use ultralisk in late game. Just rush for upgrade, make sure you have a lot of larva, after that zergling are kinda free the same way marine or canon are. I started incorporate zergling drop in my play, they destroy base so fast it will keep your opponent on his toes. Against zerg: 9 pool is great because it deny any chance of mass zergling/baneling play. If your opponent does commit to them, he will spend larva on zergling instead of drone and you'll be ahead. Being in a such defensive and cost efficient position is great. The proper resposne against 9 pool is too drone very very hard and expand as fast as possible. But the danger is: Will your opponent be prepared for your timing push, will he overdrone? It happens a lot, i just keep winning my ZvZ. | ||
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jmertelj
Slovenia84 Posts
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
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TanX
Denmark92 Posts
I have been looking for this kind of build forever... The Spanishiwa build was just too difficult against other Zergs who do all-in builds. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
[url blocked] .zip | ||
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BroboCop
United States373 Posts
i have been a user of early pools for about 4months~ now in zvp/zvz, at very high level (top 100 masters us server) and i would like to say i'm a "master of early pools" so... your build order isn't exactly optimzied here is why: your 9pool build isn't optimized, you can get an 11th drone and still have 3 larva when pool finishes: drone till 9 pool drone till 10 gas trick + 1 drone overlord. 3 larva + pool finish @ same time. gz you have better econ/build. (pool finishes 2:12, overlord 2:13, 3 larva 2:12) 11 drones. 100 minerals left @ 2:14. *note tests were done on mlg XC with lazy-mineral stacking (meaning i didn't put much effort into it) OR you could 8pool and get the stuff out 10sec sooner w/ same drone count. drone till 8 pool drone till 10 overlord | ||
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UberOverlord
United States29 Posts
9/10 pool 11/10 Overlord (Extractor trick then scout) 11/18 6 zlings 14 queen The later overlord lets me get an extra drone/larva in exchange for 1-2 second slower lings. I've also found that I'm unable to take out a 15 hatch directly with my 6 lings if they are good, and so I try to do enough drone damage to stop them from powering their 15 hatch instead. This is what I do. Build a spine up against their hatchery/spawning pool with scouting drone. Try to limit it's surface area and create small chokes for your lings to fight the drones 1 on 1. This forces their drones to leave their mineral line to fight in a place where they can not mineral walk and surround your 6 lings! If you think your opponent is a noob, you can also try hiding the spine in the corner of his base. Don't be afraid to cancel your spine! The damage your spine takes from drones is easily worth the lost mining time for your opponent. Just cancel spine and full retreat, your early queen will provide you with enough larva to surpass you're opponent in drone count. Your opponent now has abundant larva, but not enough minerals to use them. Take advantage of this in anyway you see fit. | ||
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UberOverlord
United States29 Posts
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
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JonB
Sweden325 Posts
On July 01 2011 08:59 aXa wrote: For now, my ZvT strat is being roflstomp by marine whatever i throw at them. Yay. But what about banelings? T.T | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
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bmn
886 Posts
On July 07 2011 00:27 aXa wrote: It's the most useless unit against marine i would say ^^ Axa, the one response that I really have trouble with is fast expand (~20) after my lings are dead, then hard droning while rushing for infestors, with 1-3 spine crawlers at the front. Infestors are out just before/as my push arrives, and then I'm usually outdroned *and* I risk losing all my roaches for almost no damage. Any tips against this? Rushing drop and abusing drops to force them to split forces, waste fungals, and generally stay in his base has worke occasionally when I scouted fast infestor tech and a spine wall, but I'm not sure this is a solid response. in general. | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
On June 27 2011 02:36 BroboCop wrote: note: i read the op and nothing else. i have been a user of early pools for about 4months~ now in zvp/zvz, at very high level (top 100 masters us server) and i would like to say i'm a "master of early pools" so... your build order isn't exactly optimzied here is why: your 9pool build isn't optimized, you can get an 11th drone and still have 3 larva when pool finishes: drone till 9 pool drone till 10 gas trick + 1 drone overlord. 3 larva + pool finish @ same time. gz you have better econ/build. (pool finishes 2:12, overlord 2:13, 3 larva 2:12) 11 drones. 100 minerals left @ 2:14. *note tests were done on mlg XC with lazy-mineral stacking (meaning i didn't put much effort into it) OR you could 8pool and get the stuff out 10sec sooner w/ same drone count. drone till 8 pool drone till 10 overlord Curious to hear your response to this Axa. Is there a reason you don't do either of these modifications? Have you tried them and found they cause a problem? | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On August 04 2011 22:44 Shadrak wrote: Curious to hear your response to this Axa. Is there a reason you don't do either of these modifications? Have you tried them and found they cause a problem? I'm not Axa or as good as him, but I have tried the 11 drone thing and I didn't like it. A few comments: - I don't know what I'd have done wrong, but I never had 3 larvae when pool finished; the third larvae always popped a few seconds later. This actually does matter because 4 lings followed by 2 lings are much easier to kill with drones than 6 lings together, so in most games when the opponent reacted quickly I'd effectually have to delay my harrass until the last 2 lings arrive. On larger maps, the timing window for my lings to do damage before his lings pop (assuming 13g13p or 14g14p) is already fairly short, this cuts into it even more. - You delay all your queens by almost 50 minerals. Since the 11th drone will have not done any significant mining before you build the queen, and all three queens are built right in succession, every queen is delayed. IME this makes a huge difference if your opponent went straight for a ling counter and you're on a small map, as it means your wall-off will be later and you're much more vulnerable to ling pressure for a very short period. This is actually even worse on medium/large maps where your ramp is far from your creep, since I already run a few seconds short of blocking the ramp with Axa's build (because queens are so slow off creep). What do you lose by not building that drone? You lose some mining time until Axa's build goes back to droning; but because you drone right after building lings, and all the way until the roach warren pops, I don't find this to be a problem. (The difference would be larger if this build were about prolonged aggression with the 9pool, or even if you just build a spine crawler with the lings, because then the drone difference does persist for much longer.) In my experience over quite a few games, the timings are already pretty tight, and it's not worth the trade-off. I haven't done any side-to-side comparisons, though, so I'm happy to hear otherwise. I have never tried the 8pool version, it sounds interesting. The "same drone count" is a red herring, I'd be curious how this affects your queen timing instead -- you'll delay the queen because you have fewer minerals mined. I'll give this a try, but TBH I'm pretty happy with the way the 9-pool timings work out. | ||
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