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On April 01 2011 08:07 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 07:15 Premier wrote:
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all. You want T3 units to win the game through their sheer presence. You want them to demolish everything just because there's nothing more expensive to get. This would be bad gameplay and stupid because then every game would result in 1 guy rushing to T3 while the other goes all in just before he can make use it. Your point of view is flawed since you only consider your personal experience. You playing random is not a particular strong argument for you. Most games end before the lategame and even if they don't your playtime in the lategame of a race is only a third (actually it's even less if you take matchups into account) of a player who focuses on 1 race. Also you didn't even tell us what league you're playing in - you could be playing in bronze for all we know. My point is you don't know enough about the game and/or put way too less effort into the OP for it to be valid. Back up your arguments with replays otherwise it's just theorycraft.
Except templar and colossus do just what you described.... as do battle cruisers if you let a terran make 15 of them, as do thors.
How about carriers? :X
Tier 3 units can win games outright, it's just they are not that good until you make a lot of them. This is ESPECIALLY true for ultra/brood lords, which are absolute garbage in low numbers.
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On April 01 2011 08:07 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 07:15 Premier wrote:
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all. You want T3 units to win the game through their sheer presence. You want them to demolish everything just because there's nothing more expensive to get. This would be bad gameplay and stupid because then every game would result in 1 guy rushing to T3 while the other goes all in just before he can make use it. Your point of view is flawed since you only consider your personal experience. You playing random is not a particular strong argument for you. Most games end before the lategame and even if they don't your playtime in the lategame of a race is only a third (actually it's even less if you take matchups into account) of a player who focuses on 1 race. Also you didn't even tell us what league you're playing in - you could be playing in bronze for all we know. My point is you don't know enough about the game and/or put way too less effort into the OP for it to be valid. Back up your arguments with replays otherwise it's just theorycraft.
What I want is a unit that doenst get destroyed by a few t1 units. 1 marauder and like... 1 marine could kill an ultralisk. a single viking could kill a carrier or battlecruiser. I want t3 units to be more than a money dump, and be more cost efficient vs armies than t1 or t2 is. I wish that t3 units had more bang for the buck, as they are a huge money and time obligation, and they really aren't that good with the exception of the colossus and thor. The brood lord is good as well, but tech to it is just ridiculous.
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Terran tiers:
t1 barracks
t1.5 barracks techlab
t2 ghost academy, factory
t2.5 factory techlab
t3 starport, armory
t3.5 starport techlab
t4 battlecruiser
this tier system is based on structure requirement and not "size" or "bigness of effect" the unit has.
Zerg tiers would he
t1 spawning pool
tier 1.5 roach warren, baneling nest
tier 2 lair
tier 2.5 hydra den, infestor pit, spire
tier 3 hive
tier 3.5 ultralisk den, greater spire
Protoss tiers
t1 gateway
t1.5 cybernetics core
t2 robotics bay, stargate
t3 Templar archives, dark shrine, robotics facility, fleet beacon
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On April 01 2011 06:50 Staboteur wrote:Terran tech times to Thor : Total (4:35)+ Show Spoiler +Thor : (60)
armory (65)
Tech lab (while armory)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30) Battlecruiser : (90)
Fusion Core (65)
Tech lab (while fusion core)
Starport (50)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30) Ultralisk : (70)
Ultra Cavern (65)
Hive (100)
Infestation Pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65) Brood lord : (73) or (33) w corruptor premade
Greater spire (100)
Spire (while Hive)
Hive (100)
Infestation pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65) Colossus : (75) or (50) chronoboosted 3x (? confirmation anyone!? :D)
Robotics Bay (65)
Robotics Facility (65)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25) Carrier : (120) or (80) chronoboosted 4x (? Confirmation anyone!? :D)
Fleet beacon (60)
Stargate (60)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25)
I hope you realize this shows nothing? Nobody builds this from the start of a game. And you say a broodlord is 7:08 ... well, what's the build time on 6 brood lords? It's the same!
Races are different - if you want similar choices no matter what - go play chess!
While interesting, this only shows your trail of thoughts and comes off more as a QQ-threat (and a nerf-colossus one at that) and that's what TL needs.
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On April 01 2011 06:48 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 06:36 ilovelings wrote:
Collosus are a must in all match ups.
I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus. Going Colossus is probably the easiest way to go because it does splash damage which is incredibly potent on its own but it's not a necessity. I hope people get better at dealing with Colossi builds and start to really abuse its weaknesses when people just go blindly Colossus every game.
What are the weaknesses of colossi...
While I won't go so far as to say that their imbalanced (this game is still evolving), I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus; If you don't have any suggestions as to how the colossi is weak and how to abuse that weakness (coming from a toss perspective) then why would you even bother posting? Your post brings less to the conversation than ilovelings does.
As far as a weakness in the colossi gameplan I would say that once scouting the colossi you could possibly switch to almost all corrupters while getting GS and working on sniping the colossi before they push out (you have the problem of not having enough stuff though). I would really Like to see some games where the zerg goes for heavy air dominance (to the point of almost camping the robo's) and then getting b-lords for the win. The problem with this is the same problem with going mass muta, The toss can just go kill you.
OT:
Thor: great unit with a lot of weaknesses and some very obvious strengths.
Battlecruiser: With it's speed increase thors might show up more in late game TvP because they won't be wrecked by HT so much. I wouldn't advocate changing this unit.
Colossi: one of the most talked about units in the game... Not going to go there
Carrier: this unit is affected by upgrades more than any other unit in game. While it hasn't seen play yet it has potential (granted I would like to see it returned to bw status). taking the VR into account I think that toss air tech is fine
Mothership: takes all the same buildings as carriers, if a carrier build came out of nowhere I think we would see more motherships
HT/DT: The tech path to get to HT is pretty intuitive. Even though colossi is the main unit to be made there is a lot of potential for HT
Ultralisk: I love ultralisks. Personally I think that with more wide open maps we will begin to see ultras coming into play more. While it takes forever to get to hive tech and making these units, with Ling/bling/infester/ultra I see potential.
Broodlords: long tech path, insanely powerful, slow moving fortress, morphs from Z's natural AA... keep em
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On April 01 2011 06:47 Toothless`xelrae wrote:
problem is, tier 3 for Terran and Protoss is much more accessible in the midgame (Thors and Collosi) compared to zerg.
True. But do you know why? Because toss but mainly Terran rely on tier 1 and 1.5 which are generally less gas intensive so they can get the gass heavy tier 3 that they rely on. Zerg masses tier 2 units almost exclusively. Huge hydra and huge muta numbers are what we see. With the infestor buff I have done ling infestor ultra exclusively in zvt and all I have to say is wow. Other than upgrades you go straight to hive for ultra and crackling andrenalnglands. You get faster ultras and it's really strong. The reason I can is because I'm not spending 800 gas on 8 mutas. Ad for those who haven't tried this it absolutely wrecks bio tank and a few Thor style Terran play
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On April 01 2011 08:13 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 08:07 Ravomat wrote:On April 01 2011 07:15 Premier wrote:
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all. You want T3 units to win the game through their sheer presence. You want them to demolish everything just because there's nothing more expensive to get. This would be bad gameplay and stupid because then every game would result in 1 guy rushing to T3 while the other goes all in just before he can make use it. Except templar and colossus do just what you described.... as do battle cruisers if you let a terran make 15 of them, as do thors.
No, they don't. They are only effective in ball vs ball battles which they are supposed to do. Only Colossi or only templar (read: no support whatsoever) don't do anything.
I already explained it in this thread but I'll do it again: Apparently Premier tried rushing to T3 units and the only unit which can be consistently made good use of when rushed to is the Colossus. The thing is every unit has a role. The Colossus is because of its splash damage very good in ball vs ball battles. These battles will sooner or later occur in every game.
Now if you look to other T3 units their use is not as obvious. You need a gameplan for them to be useful. These gameplans include to get a economy to support building them, to get upgrades to increase their lifespans and damage output, a unit composition to maximize their effectiveness and tactics (most obvious one: techswitches e.g. ZvT Broodlord to force vikings into Ultralisks).
If you let someone get 15 BCs you didn't respond properly.
I won't argue that Colossi are the most useful or that they are the easiest high tech unit to use.
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TL;DR for my above post^ it's because t and p rely on tier 1 and 1.5 a lot and can get tier 3 quickly. Zerg go for heavy tier 2 which is a big gas dump so tier 3 is harder
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The example of zerg tier 2 is Roach which is really cheap (comparatively) to both races. Heavy muta is gas intensive and so it infester but that's not the reason zerg is hesitant to get tier 3 >.>
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The topic should be better named as "A Brief Analysis of Massive Units". It's arguable what counts as tier 3 and what doesn't, since starport units and templar can be counted as tier 3.
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On April 01 2011 05:33 Premier wrote:
The Colossus
The Colossi is a GREAT unit. Maybe even too great. I play toss quite a bit and I will hardly ever not go Colossi. In PvT they tear apart bio balls, and in TvZ they eliminate everything on the ground. They are an extremely mobile unit that really has one big weakness, and that is that it can be hit by vikings or corrupters and so on. Overall, it is a fantastic unit, in my opinion, the best tier 3 unit in the game by a long shot.
I have to agree on that, but we don't see enough Colossi in TvZ.
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Anyone else get bothered when people still try to classify Terran into tiers?
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On April 01 2011 09:12 AlgoFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 05:33 Premier wrote:
The Colossus
The Colossi is a GREAT unit. Maybe even too great. I play toss quite a bit and I will hardly ever not go Colossi. In PvT they tear apart bio balls, and in TvZ they eliminate everything on the ground. They are an extremely mobile unit that really has one big weakness, and that is that it can be hit by vikings or corrupters and so on. Overall, it is a fantastic unit, in my opinion, the best tier 3 unit in the game by a long shot.
I have to agree on that, but we don't see enough Colossi in TvZ.
Fixed  Though it is true, Colossi do quite a bit of damage to a roach/hydra ball or any similar composition.
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Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop.
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On April 01 2011 08:27 lorkac wrote:
Terran tiers:
t1 barracks
t1.5 barracks techlab
t2 ghost academy, factory
t2.5 factory techlab
t3 starport, armory
t3.5 starport techlab
t4 battlecruiser
this tier system is based on structure requirement and not "size" or "bigness of effect" the unit has.
Zerg tiers would he
t1 spawning pool
tier 1.5 roach warren, baneling nest
tier 2 lair
tier 2.5 hydra den, infestor pit, spire
tier 3 hive
tier 3.5 ultralisk den, greater spire
Protoss tiers
t1 gateway
t1.5 cybernetics core
t2 robotics bay, stargate
t3 Templar archives, dark shrine, robotics facility, fleet beacon
Tiers as described by Blizzard quite awhile ago:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 01 2011 10:09 FluidTek wrote:
Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop.
No, carriers just have the highest instantaneous damage - 5x2x8=80/shot. But they are actually pretty good pvz and pvt provided that you have adequate ground support. I find that they actually counter hydras pretty well because of the positioning advantage and the AI targeting interceptors. And vs terran you can mix it up with colossi for a strong mix.
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On April 01 2011 10:14 asdfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 10:09 FluidTek wrote:
Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop. No, carriers just have the highest instantaneous damage - 5x2x8=80/shot. But they are actually pretty good pvz and pvt provided that you have adequate ground support. I find that they actually counter hydras pretty well because of the positioning advantage and the AI targeting interceptors. And vs terran you can mix it up with colossi for a strong mix.
I heard differently. I heard that since interceptors aren't endless like brood lings, and because Hydras shoot so damn quickly that it's a lot better to focus the interceptors instead of the Carrier initially because with no interceptors the Carrier is useless.
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On April 01 2011 08:33 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 06:50 Staboteur wrote:Terran tech times to Thor : Total (4:35)+ Show Spoiler +Thor : (60)
armory (65)
Tech lab (while armory)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30) Battlecruiser : (90)
Fusion Core (65)
Tech lab (while fusion core)
Starport (50)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30) Ultralisk : (70)
Ultra Cavern (65)
Hive (100)
Infestation Pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65) Brood lord : (73) or (33) w corruptor premade
Greater spire (100)
Spire (while Hive)
Hive (100)
Infestation pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65) Colossus : (75) or (50) chronoboosted 3x (? confirmation anyone!? :D)
Robotics Bay (65)
Robotics Facility (65)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25) Carrier : (120) or (80) chronoboosted 4x (? Confirmation anyone!? :D)
Fleet beacon (60)
Stargate (60)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25) I hope you realize this shows nothing? Nobody builds this from the start of a game. And you say a broodlord is 7:08 ... well, what's the build time on 6 brood lords? It's the same! Races are different - if you want similar choices no matter what - go play chess! While interesting, this only shows your trail of thoughts and comes off more as a QQ-threat (and a nerf-colossus one at that) and that's what TL needs.
I find this reply offensive, and here's why.
On April 01 2011 06:50 Staboteur wrote:
I think also worthy of note is the amount of time it takes to tech up to T3, and I believe this is where Zerg is hurt most. Though these blind rush scenarios I'm about to present are fully unrealistic, they do show the amount of time necessary to get there. Simply because you're not likely to rush straight to brood lords isn't a reason to write off the fact that they take forever to tech to.
I think a fair argument for these times would be pointing out that though Zerg T3 comes out a minute or two slower than the other races, Zerg can be making as many ultras/broodlords as he can afford at that point, whereas the other races are limited by their production facilities.
I dunno. I'm not trying to make any real point here, I just think that these numbers are valuable and relevant information.
This is the rest of the post you quoted, which explains everything you're whining about. Glad you could quote me out of context and/or just not fucking read.
I'd also like to point out that I never actually made any comparison or judgement whatsoever. I never even pointed to the Colossus, and then pointed to the Ultralisk, and said SEE PROTOSS? SEE? All that happened in your head. I made no gesture towards any imbalances whatsoever. I actually think Zerg T3 is badass, but the four minutes between not having a hive but needing T3 and actually having T3 is a little disturbing.
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On April 01 2011 10:09 FluidTek wrote:
Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop.
Units that have the same or more DPS than a Carrier:
Carrier DPS : 26.67 DPS
Battle Cruiser: 35.6 DPS (ground)
Thor: 46.9 DPS (ground)
Immortal: 33.8 DPS (vs. Armored)
DT: 26.6 DPS
Colossus: 18.2 DPS (when attacking >=2 Targets)
Ultraisk: 46.4 DPS (when attacking armored)
Broodlords: 20.4 - 32.8 DPS
Voidray: 26.6 DPS (vs. Armored)
Voidray: 31.96 DPS (vs. Massive)
The Carrier and the Broodlord DPS fluctuates greatly in battle due to the death of Interceptors/Broodlings.
Carrier also has one of the worst cost vs DPS ratios in the game IIRC, it is one of the most inefficient units in the game. The Cost per DPS ratio is so bad, that it is actually worse than Battlecruiser vs Air Cost vs DPS...
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Am I the only one who looked at Dommk's post and went "Where the hell is the lurker den button in game?"
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.sc2rocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Protoss-Tech-Tree1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft2-elites.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Terran-Tech-Tree.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.sc2rocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/zerg_tech_tree.jpg)
