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A Brief Analysis of Tier 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Premier
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States503 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-01 00:14:52
March 31 2011 20:33 GMT
#1
Hey guys, I've seen alot of posts lately saying "Are ultras dead?" "Are BCs useless" "Are Carriers Bad" and so on. So I thought Id do a little sum up of the t3 units in the game, and their stregnths/weaknesses and maybe some ideas on what could be done to make them better. I play all 3 races, so I think im pretty unbiased, so dont worry about a QQ post

Each Race has 1 ground T3 unit, and one Air, I'll be going over both for each race.

Terran

The Thor:
+ Show Spoiler +
A walking tank, attacks both Ground and Air Units.
Cost: 300 min, 200 gas - 6 supply - 60 seconds
Ground Attack - 30 dmg - 2 attacks - Range 7 - Speed 1.28
Air Attack - 6 dmg/12 v light - 4 attacks - Range 10 - Speed 3
Armor - 1 - Speed - 1.88
Abilities: 250mm Strike Cannons
The Thor is a strong unit, not overpowered by any stretch, but a completely balanced unit in my opinion. The Thor is quite good in many matchups, including TvZ and TvP especially, as the thor Anti-Air attack does splash cannons, and the 250mm Strike Cannons are good for taking out Colossi. The Thor is a pretty commonly seen unit, and is overall worth its cost in both recources and food.


The Battlecruiser:

+ Show Spoiler +
A flying behemoth, attacks both Ground and Air Units.
Cost - 400 min 300 gas - 6 supply - 90 seconds
Ground Attack - 8 dmg - 1 attack - Range 6 - Speed .225
Air Attack - 6 dmg - 1 attack - Range 6 - Speed .225
Armor - 3 - Speed 1.41
Abilities - Yamato Cannon
The Battlecruiser is the weaker of the two terran tier 3 units. It doesn't have many uses, as it is quite slow, and the damage output is not fantastic. I experimented with Battlecruisers for about 5 games in TvP for an anti-Collossi build using the Yamato Cannon, and those are the only 5 games in which I've actually used them. A possible fix (this may have been done, I havent played since patch) would be increasing speed or attack damage. This unit doesnt have many uses, and is not cost efficient vs anything in my opinion.


Zerg
Probably the race that sees the least of t3 Action, here we have the Zerg.
Note: Neither zerg t3 unit attacks air.

The Ultralisk

+ Show Spoiler +
Huge Assault beast - attacks only ground.
Cost - 300 min 200 gas - 6 Supply - 70 seconds
Ground Attack - 15 dmg - 20 vs Armored - Range 1(Melee) - Splash Radius 2 - Speed .861
Air Attack - None
Armor - 1 - Speed - 2.95
Abilities: Burrow, Immune to Stun/Mind Control
The Ultralisk is a hard to describe unit. It is both good and its not, well really, its quite situational. The main problem with the Ultralisk is everything seems to get in its way. It is a great tank, and a great dmg dealer vs armored units such as stalkers or tanks, but it has alot of trouble getting there. This is the main flaw in the Ultra - it gets blocked by many smaller units, such as the zergling/hydra/roach and so on. My solution would be: Let ultras walk over smaller units, such as marines/zealots/zerglings and maybe some others. If that were to happen, I think ultras would be a great unit.


The Brood Lord

+ Show Spoiler +
Flying attack beast - attacks only ground
Cost - 350 min 250 gas - 4 supply - 73 seconds (This includes all of the corrupter costs)
Ground Atack - 20 dmg - 1 Attack - Range 9.5 - Speed 2.5
Air Attack - None
Armor - 1 - Speed 1.41
The Brood Lord is a good unit, that hardly sees any use because of the extensive tech path. They are quite adept in matchups such as ZvT as a late game option vs tanks or so on, as the tanks can hit their own units being attacked by the brood lords. However; it is super easy for a brood lord to get sniped by a pheonix or viking, as they are quite slow. Overall they are a good unit, but the tech tree just takes far too long to get too.


Protoss
Finally for the last race - Protoss

The Colossus

+ Show Spoiler +
Huge walking tank, can scale cliffs, attacks only ground
Cost - 300 min 200 gas - 6 Supply - 75 Seconds
Ground Attack - 15 dmg - 2 Attacks - Range 6(9) (Splash Dmg) - Speed 1.65
Air Attack - None
Armor - 1 - Speed 2.25
Abilities - Cliff Walk - Can scale cliffs
The Colossi is a GREAT unit. Maybe even too great. I play toss quite a bit and I will hardly ever not go Colossi. In PvT they tear apart bio balls, and in PvZ they eliminate everything on the ground. They are an extremely mobile unit that really has one big weakness, and that is that it can be hit by vikings or corrupters and so on. Overall, it is a fantastic unit, in my opinion, the best tier 3 unit in the game by a long shot.


The Carrier

+ Show Spoiler +
Flying Capital Ship, attacks both Ground and Air
Cost - 350 min 250 gas - 6 Supply - 120 Seconds
Ground Attack - Cost 25 min - 5 dmg - 2 Attacks - Speed 3 - Range 2 (Up to 8 interceptors)
Air attack - Same as Ground
Armor - 2 - Speed 1.88
Abilities - Graviton Catapault - Launch Interceptors
The Carrier is a weak tier three unit, on par with the battlecruiser. It is quite slow, and easily killable by hydras, marines or any type of anti air like vikings. It does do a decent amount of damage, but mostly when there are a great number of them, which takes a huge amount of time and money to get. They arent quite cost effective versus much, and could be much better.


Hope you guys enjoyed and I cleared things up for anyone who had questions. Also, these are completely my opinions, and I'm not QQing about balance or anything. I hope this helps, and feel free to give feedback.

Picture Me Rollin' - DJ Premier, Titan of the Tables
rightstuff
Profile Joined October 2010
United States160 Posts
March 31 2011 20:46 GMT
#2
What about Templar tech for Protoss? Do high templar, dark Templar, and archons fit the tier 3 bill? Mothership too I might add.

Are ghosts 2.5?

Also I have to disagree on your battlecruiser analysis. It's very effective against light ground units an can tank a lot of damage from the traditional ground to air troops. It's not mobile, but neither is the vast majority of a high tech Terran force.
ccJroy
Profile Joined April 2010
United States483 Posts
March 31 2011 20:55 GMT
#3
Yes, DT's/HT's should be on the list for Protoss Tier 3.

Good overall write up. Nicely done.
Lol Rly?
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
March 31 2011 21:04 GMT
#4
Aren't medivac, viking, banshee and ravens all tier 3 as well?
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
ccJroy
Profile Joined April 2010
United States483 Posts
March 31 2011 21:11 GMT
#5
On April 01 2011 06:04 lorkac wrote:
Aren't medivac, viking, banshee and ravens all tier 3 as well?


Technically id say there 2.5, like the ghost is 1.5 (some consider 2).

But with the T buildings basically leading up in a certain way where u need to build every building in the sequence to get the proper army.

Bio - T1, except ghosts which are considered 1.5

Tanks/Hellions - T2.

Thors/BC's, the SP/factory plus an additional tech structure to attain those, while the raven/medivac can be attained only using the starport/tech lab.

Lol Rly?
quantumslip
Profile Joined May 2010
United States188 Posts
March 31 2011 21:12 GMT
#6
FYI BC's are now 1.875 speed since 1.03.
rawr!
Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
March 31 2011 21:19 GMT
#7
On April 01 2011 06:12 quantumslip wrote:
FYI BC's are now 1.875 speed since 1.03.

They fly fast now I like =P, now only if they fly at slightly sub viking speed 2.0 will be nice so they can atleast chase down carriers =P carriers are long range anyways
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
Ravomat
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany422 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-31 21:36:23
March 31 2011 21:35 GMT
#8
You claim not to be biased but you are. When reading your analysis of the units I get the feeling you just tried rushing to them which is not the proper way to do it. Carriers, BCs, Ultras and Broodlords need a good economy to support them and a unit composition and upgrades which maximizes their effectiveness. Though the most important part is you need a plan for them. I'd give some examples but those more or less hidden balance whines are keeping me from it but you should watch MVP vs Ryung to see what I am talking about. Here's the link http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstl2/vod/63470 (set 7) or if you don't have a GSL account go watch it here http://sc2rep.com/replays/show?id=6338.
ilovelings
Profile Joined January 2011
Argentina776 Posts
March 31 2011 21:36 GMT
#9
Where's the mothership bro?

I dislike this list cuz it's oriented @ your playstyle. BCs ARE COST EFFECTIVE, but they are so expensive, and difficult to get in a serious game without crippling at least a small part of your strategy for a little time, that players do not want to risk an extra timming window. Once you get the yamato up, prepare to give the enemy a really hard time.

Im ok with what you said about thors though.

Ultras suck @ chokes but are excellent at flanking maneuvers.

Broods are slow to get and slow themselves but once they are up, they are VERY powerful.

Collosus are a must in all match ups.


Carriers are very vulnerable. It would be really cool to be able to launch interceptors from very far away :D
People is diying.
Toothless`xelrae
Profile Joined November 2010
94 Posts
March 31 2011 21:47 GMT
#10
problem is, tier 3 for Terran and Protoss is much more accessible in the midgame (Thors and Collosi) compared to zerg.
Lando
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada42 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-31 21:52:35
March 31 2011 21:47 GMT
#11
I'm not sure about thors being balanced with the SPLASH anti air, since air units easily stacked together when they move around or attack. I mean in lower leagues people don't necessarily have enough micro to magic box everything, but even in higher leagues I've seen zergs accidentally fly a flock of mutas into thors and it's almost GG. And considering how gas heavy air units are, and how the thor's anti-air AOE doesn't require micro at all(unlike storm or fungal), I would say it's a bit imbalanced.

edit: spelling
Ravomat
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany422 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-31 21:50:24
March 31 2011 21:48 GMT
#12
On April 01 2011 06:36 ilovelings wrote:
Collosus are a must in all match ups.


I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus. Going Colossus is probably the easiest way to go because it does splash damage which is incredibly potent on its own but it's not a necessity.

I hope people get better at dealing with Colossi builds and start to really abuse its weaknesses when people just go blindly Colossus every game.
Staboteur
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada1873 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-31 22:08:19
March 31 2011 21:50 GMT
#13
I think also worthy of note is the amount of time it takes to tech up to T3, and I believe this is where Zerg is hurt most. Though these blind rush scenarios I'm about to present are fully unrealistic, they do show the amount of time necessary to get there. Simply because you're not likely to rush straight to brood lords isn't a reason to write off the fact that they take forever to tech to.

Terran tech times to Thor : Total (4:35)

+ Show Spoiler +
Thor : (60)
armory (65)
Tech lab (while armory)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30)


Terran tech Times to Battlecruiser : Total (5:55)

+ Show Spoiler +
Battlecruiser : (90)
Fusion Core (65)
Tech lab (while fusion core)
Starport (50)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30)


Zerg tech times to Ultralisks : Total (7:10)

+ Show Spoiler +
Ultralisk : (70)
Ultra Cavern (65)
Hive (100)
Infestation Pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65)


Zerg tech times to Brood Lord : Total (7:08 - 7:48)

+ Show Spoiler +
Brood lord : (73) or (33) w corruptor premade
Greater spire (100)
Spire (while Hive)
Hive (100)
Infestation pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65)


Protoss Tech times to Colossus : Total (5:20 - 5:45)

+ Show Spoiler +
Colossus : (75) or (50) chronoboosted 3x (? confirmation anyone!? :D)
Robotics Bay (65)
Robotics Facility (65)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25)


Protoss tech times to Carriers : Total (5:40 - 6:20)

+ Show Spoiler +
Carrier : (120) or (80) chronoboosted 4x (? Confirmation anyone!? :D)
Fleet beacon (60)
Stargate (60)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25)


I think a fair argument for these times would be pointing out that though Zerg T3 comes out a minute or two slower than the other races, Zerg can be making as many ultras/broodlords as he can afford at that point, whereas the other races are limited by their production facilities.

I dunno. I'm not trying to make any real point here, I just think that these numbers are valuable and relevant information.
I'm actually Fleetfeet D:
Indrium
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2236 Posts
March 31 2011 21:53 GMT
#14
Zerg t3 is both harder to get and worse than the other two. Ultras are only useful with infestors or against massive numbers of slow units. Broodlords are better than Ultras, but have this propensity to die to air counters. Useful against Protoss especially, and a turtling Terran.
HostilSpike
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom62 Posts
March 31 2011 21:54 GMT
#15
I think one thing it might be worth considering here is that neither of the Terran Tier 3 units benefit from upgrades from an Engineering Bay while both Zerg units (via broodlings for broodlords) and the Collossi get damage increases from their respective upgrade structures.

Similarly Protoss and Zerg both gain access to their Air upgrades from basic structures while Terran gain theirs at an Armory; possibly accounting for Terran tending to stick to Bio and Biomech into the late game.

Zerg lacking a Tier 3 unit that scales from Ranged upgrades can also create problems with their tech paths.

Though maybe I'm too concerned with upgrades xD
ilovelings
Profile Joined January 2011
Argentina776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-31 22:05:05
March 31 2011 22:00 GMT
#16
On April 01 2011 06:48 Ravomat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2011 06:36 ilovelings wrote:
Collosus are a must in all match ups.


I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus. Going Colossus is probably the easiest way to go because it does splash damage which is incredibly potent on its own but it's not a necessity.

I hope people get better at dealing with Colossi builds and start to really abuse its weaknesses when people just go blindly Colossus every game.



I don't go colossi blindly . If you scout me and start pumping vikings and I don't have a colossi critical mass I basically use templars & immortals. I like abussing ledges and the 9 range too .

The coolest thing on colossi is that when you get +1 +1 for gateway units you are also getting +1 +1 for colossi. This kind of stuff does not happen with terran or zerg, and I think is the main reason why Colossi are so used right now. You can basically go +2 +1 or even +3 +1 and with a critical mass of colossi you force 10 vikings on the enemy.
People is diying.
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-31 22:07:07
March 31 2011 22:01 GMT
#17
i consider bc carrier and the ms t4 , maybe ultras too (ultras need the upgrades and you don't need their upgrades before you want them mostly)

hehe anyway cracklings are t3 as well. Wonder why the tier discussions break out now especially since sc2 is all about using a combination of units from different tech levels.

PS: speed was increased now for the bcs and they are awesome fast now xD. And damage was nerved before because they owned everything. Now they still own everything whats in the air thanks to their super high damage vs air, but have the same issue like the thors, need to stop to shoot, so they are easy to kite and ai abuse is really easy against them like with the thors.
TheWarbler
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1659 Posts
March 31 2011 22:07 GMT
#18
On April 01 2011 07:01 FeyFey wrote:
i consider bc carrier and the ms t4 , maybe ultras too (ultras need the upgrades and you don't need their upgrades before you want them mostly)

hehe anyway cracklings are t3 as well. Wonder why the tier discussions break out now especially since sc2 is all about using a combination of units from different tech levels.



TBH the cracklings in sc2 are no where near destructive as the ones in BW. I would not consider them t3 at all.
if you can believe you can concieve
Premier
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States503 Posts
March 31 2011 22:15 GMT
#19
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all.

And for the rest: I classify ghosts/tanks/banshees/ravens/templars/immortals/mutas/corrupters all t2.5, and I didnt include Mothership because its a special case. If I have some time later I'll try to add some stuff in, maybe for High Temps or the Mothership, since High temps can go either 2.5 or 3 really. I know I should have included upgrades, and I may update it providing I have time tonight, but I'm pretty busy. I'll try to get on that soon. Thanks for the feedback.
Picture Me Rollin' - DJ Premier, Titan of the Tables
Ravomat
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany422 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-31 23:09:16
March 31 2011 23:07 GMT
#20
On April 01 2011 07:15 Premier wrote:
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all.


You want T3 units to win the game through their sheer presence. You want them to demolish everything just because there's nothing more expensive to get. This would be bad gameplay and stupid because then every game would result in 1 guy rushing to T3 while the other goes all in just before he can make use it.

Your point of view is flawed since you only consider your personal experience. You playing random is not a particular strong argument for you. Most games end before the lategame and even if they don't your playtime in the lategame of a race is only a third (actually it's even less if you take matchups into account) of a player who focuses on 1 race. Also you didn't even tell us what league you're playing in - you could be playing in bronze for all we know.

My point is you don't know enough about the game and/or put way too less effort into the OP for it to be valid. Back up your arguments with replays otherwise it's just theorycraft.
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