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Hey guys, I've seen alot of posts lately saying "Are ultras dead?" "Are BCs useless" "Are Carriers Bad" and so on. So I thought Id do a little sum up of the t3 units in the game, and their stregnths/weaknesses and maybe some ideas on what could be done to make them better. I play all 3 races, so I think im pretty unbiased, so dont worry about a QQ post 
Each Race has 1 ground T3 unit, and one Air, I'll be going over both for each race.
Terran
The Thor:
+ Show Spoiler +A walking tank, attacks both Ground and Air Units.
Cost: 300 min, 200 gas - 6 supply - 60 seconds
Ground Attack - 30 dmg - 2 attacks - Range 7 - Speed 1.28
Air Attack - 6 dmg/12 v light - 4 attacks - Range 10 - Speed 3
Armor - 1 - Speed - 1.88
Abilities: 250mm Strike Cannons
The Thor is a strong unit, not overpowered by any stretch, but a completely balanced unit in my opinion. The Thor is quite good in many matchups, including TvZ and TvP especially, as the thor Anti-Air attack does splash cannons, and the 250mm Strike Cannons are good for taking out Colossi. The Thor is a pretty commonly seen unit, and is overall worth its cost in both recources and food.
The Battlecruiser:
+ Show Spoiler +A flying behemoth, attacks both Ground and Air Units.
Cost - 400 min 300 gas - 6 supply - 90 seconds
Ground Attack - 8 dmg - 1 attack - Range 6 - Speed .225
Air Attack - 6 dmg - 1 attack - Range 6 - Speed .225
Armor - 3 - Speed 1.41
Abilities - Yamato Cannon
The Battlecruiser is the weaker of the two terran tier 3 units. It doesn't have many uses, as it is quite slow, and the damage output is not fantastic. I experimented with Battlecruisers for about 5 games in TvP for an anti-Collossi build using the Yamato Cannon, and those are the only 5 games in which I've actually used them. A possible fix (this may have been done, I havent played since patch) would be increasing speed or attack damage. This unit doesnt have many uses, and is not cost efficient vs anything in my opinion.
Zerg
Probably the race that sees the least of t3 Action, here we have the Zerg.
Note: Neither zerg t3 unit attacks air.
The Ultralisk
+ Show Spoiler +Huge Assault beast - attacks only ground.
Cost - 300 min 200 gas - 6 Supply - 70 seconds
Ground Attack - 15 dmg - 20 vs Armored - Range 1(Melee) - Splash Radius 2 - Speed .861
Air Attack - None
Armor - 1 - Speed - 2.95
Abilities: Burrow, Immune to Stun/Mind Control
The Ultralisk is a hard to describe unit. It is both good and its not, well really, its quite situational. The main problem with the Ultralisk is everything seems to get in its way. It is a great tank, and a great dmg dealer vs armored units such as stalkers or tanks, but it has alot of trouble getting there. This is the main flaw in the Ultra - it gets blocked by many smaller units, such as the zergling/hydra/roach and so on. My solution would be: Let ultras walk over smaller units, such as marines/zealots/zerglings and maybe some others. If that were to happen, I think ultras would be a great unit.
The Brood Lord
+ Show Spoiler +Flying attack beast - attacks only ground
Cost - 350 min 250 gas - 4 supply - 73 seconds (This includes all of the corrupter costs)
Ground Atack - 20 dmg - 1 Attack - Range 9.5 - Speed 2.5
Air Attack - None
Armor - 1 - Speed 1.41
The Brood Lord is a good unit, that hardly sees any use because of the extensive tech path. They are quite adept in matchups such as ZvT as a late game option vs tanks or so on, as the tanks can hit their own units being attacked by the brood lords. However; it is super easy for a brood lord to get sniped by a pheonix or viking, as they are quite slow. Overall they are a good unit, but the tech tree just takes far too long to get too.
Protoss
Finally for the last race - Protoss
The Colossus
+ Show Spoiler +Huge walking tank, can scale cliffs, attacks only ground
Cost - 300 min 200 gas - 6 Supply - 75 Seconds
Ground Attack - 15 dmg - 2 Attacks - Range 6(9) (Splash Dmg) - Speed 1.65
Air Attack - None
Armor - 1 - Speed 2.25
Abilities - Cliff Walk - Can scale cliffs
The Colossi is a GREAT unit. Maybe even too great. I play toss quite a bit and I will hardly ever not go Colossi. In PvT they tear apart bio balls, and in PvZ they eliminate everything on the ground. They are an extremely mobile unit that really has one big weakness, and that is that it can be hit by vikings or corrupters and so on. Overall, it is a fantastic unit, in my opinion, the best tier 3 unit in the game by a long shot.
The Carrier
+ Show Spoiler +Flying Capital Ship, attacks both Ground and Air
Cost - 350 min 250 gas - 6 Supply - 120 Seconds
Ground Attack - Cost 25 min - 5 dmg - 2 Attacks - Speed 3 - Range 2 (Up to 8 interceptors)
Air attack - Same as Ground
Armor - 2 - Speed 1.88
Abilities - Graviton Catapault - Launch Interceptors
The Carrier is a weak tier three unit, on par with the battlecruiser. It is quite slow, and easily killable by hydras, marines or any type of anti air like vikings. It does do a decent amount of damage, but mostly when there are a great number of them, which takes a huge amount of time and money to get. They arent quite cost effective versus much, and could be much better.
Hope you guys enjoyed and I cleared things up for anyone who had questions. Also, these are completely my opinions, and I'm not QQing about balance or anything. I hope this helps, and feel free to give feedback.
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United States160 Posts
What about Templar tech for Protoss? Do high templar, dark Templar, and archons fit the tier 3 bill? Mothership too I might add.
Are ghosts 2.5?
Also I have to disagree on your battlecruiser analysis. It's very effective against light ground units an can tank a lot of damage from the traditional ground to air troops. It's not mobile, but neither is the vast majority of a high tech Terran force.
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Yes, DT's/HT's should be on the list for Protoss Tier 3.
Good overall write up. Nicely done.
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Aren't medivac, viking, banshee and ravens all tier 3 as well?
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On April 01 2011 06:04 lorkac wrote:
Aren't medivac, viking, banshee and ravens all tier 3 as well?
Technically id say there 2.5, like the ghost is 1.5 (some consider 2).
But with the T buildings basically leading up in a certain way where u need to build every building in the sequence to get the proper army.
Bio - T1, except ghosts which are considered 1.5
Tanks/Hellions - T2.
Thors/BC's, the SP/factory plus an additional tech structure to attain those, while the raven/medivac can be attained only using the starport/tech lab.
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FYI BC's are now 1.875 speed since 1.03.
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On April 01 2011 06:12 quantumslip wrote:
FYI BC's are now 1.875 speed since 1.03.
They fly fast now I like =P, now only if they fly at slightly sub viking speed 2.0 will be nice so they can atleast chase down carriers =P carriers are long range anyways
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You claim not to be biased but you are. When reading your analysis of the units I get the feeling you just tried rushing to them which is not the proper way to do it. Carriers, BCs, Ultras and Broodlords need a good economy to support them and a unit composition and upgrades which maximizes their effectiveness. Though the most important part is you need a plan for them. I'd give some examples but those more or less hidden balance whines are keeping me from it but you should watch MVP vs Ryung to see what I am talking about. Here's the link http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstl2/vod/63470 (set 7) or if you don't have a GSL account go watch it here http://sc2rep.com/replays/show?id=6338.
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Where's the mothership bro?
I dislike this list cuz it's oriented @ your playstyle. BCs ARE COST EFFECTIVE, but they are so expensive, and difficult to get in a serious game without crippling at least a small part of your strategy for a little time, that players do not want to risk an extra timming window. Once you get the yamato up, prepare to give the enemy a really hard time.
Im ok with what you said about thors though.
Ultras suck @ chokes but are excellent at flanking maneuvers.
Broods are slow to get and slow themselves but once they are up, they are VERY powerful.
Collosus are a must in all match ups.
Carriers are very vulnerable. It would be really cool to be able to launch interceptors from very far away :D
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problem is, tier 3 for Terran and Protoss is much more accessible in the midgame (Thors and Collosi) compared to zerg.
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I'm not sure about thors being balanced with the SPLASH anti air, since air units easily stacked together when they move around or attack. I mean in lower leagues people don't necessarily have enough micro to magic box everything, but even in higher leagues I've seen zergs accidentally fly a flock of mutas into thors and it's almost GG. And considering how gas heavy air units are, and how the thor's anti-air AOE doesn't require micro at all(unlike storm or fungal), I would say it's a bit imbalanced. 
edit: spelling
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On April 01 2011 06:36 ilovelings wrote:
Collosus are a must in all match ups.
I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus. Going Colossus is probably the easiest way to go because it does splash damage which is incredibly potent on its own but it's not a necessity.
I hope people get better at dealing with Colossi builds and start to really abuse its weaknesses when people just go blindly Colossus every game.
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I think also worthy of note is the amount of time it takes to tech up to T3, and I believe this is where Zerg is hurt most. Though these blind rush scenarios I'm about to present are fully unrealistic, they do show the amount of time necessary to get there. Simply because you're not likely to rush straight to brood lords isn't a reason to write off the fact that they take forever to tech to.
Terran tech times to Thor : Total (4:35)
+ Show Spoiler +Thor : (60)
armory (65)
Tech lab (while armory)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30)
Terran tech Times to Battlecruiser : Total (5:55)
+ Show Spoiler +Battlecruiser : (90)
Fusion Core (65)
Tech lab (while fusion core)
Starport (50)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30)
Zerg tech times to Ultralisks : Total (7:10)
+ Show Spoiler +Ultralisk : (70)
Ultra Cavern (65)
Hive (100)
Infestation Pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65)
Zerg tech times to Brood Lord : Total (7:08 - 7:48)
+ Show Spoiler +Brood lord : (73) or (33) w corruptor premade
Greater spire (100)
Spire (while Hive)
Hive (100)
Infestation pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65)
Protoss Tech times to Colossus : Total (5:20 - 5:45)
+ Show Spoiler +Colossus : (75) or (50) chronoboosted 3x (? confirmation anyone!? :D)
Robotics Bay (65)
Robotics Facility (65)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25)
Protoss tech times to Carriers : Total (5:40 - 6:20)
+ Show Spoiler +Carrier : (120) or (80) chronoboosted 4x (? Confirmation anyone!? :D)
Fleet beacon (60)
Stargate (60)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25)
I think a fair argument for these times would be pointing out that though Zerg T3 comes out a minute or two slower than the other races, Zerg can be making as many ultras/broodlords as he can afford at that point, whereas the other races are limited by their production facilities.
I dunno. I'm not trying to make any real point here, I just think that these numbers are valuable and relevant information.
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Zerg t3 is both harder to get and worse than the other two. Ultras are only useful with infestors or against massive numbers of slow units. Broodlords are better than Ultras, but have this propensity to die to air counters. Useful against Protoss especially, and a turtling Terran.
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I think one thing it might be worth considering here is that neither of the Terran Tier 3 units benefit from upgrades from an Engineering Bay while both Zerg units (via broodlings for broodlords) and the Collossi get damage increases from their respective upgrade structures.
Similarly Protoss and Zerg both gain access to their Air upgrades from basic structures while Terran gain theirs at an Armory; possibly accounting for Terran tending to stick to Bio and Biomech into the late game.
Zerg lacking a Tier 3 unit that scales from Ranged upgrades can also create problems with their tech paths.
Though maybe I'm too concerned with upgrades xD
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On April 01 2011 06:48 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 06:36 ilovelings wrote:
Collosus are a must in all match ups.
I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus. Going Colossus is probably the easiest way to go because it does splash damage which is incredibly potent on its own but it's not a necessity. I hope people get better at dealing with Colossi builds and start to really abuse its weaknesses when people just go blindly Colossus every game.
I don't go colossi blindly . If you scout me and start pumping vikings and I don't have a colossi critical mass I basically use templars & immortals. I like abussing ledges and the 9 range too .
The coolest thing on colossi is that when you get +1 +1 for gateway units you are also getting +1 +1 for colossi. This kind of stuff does not happen with terran or zerg, and I think is the main reason why Colossi are so used right now. You can basically go +2 +1 or even +3 +1 and with a critical mass of colossi you force 10 vikings on the enemy.
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i consider bc carrier and the ms t4  , maybe ultras too (ultras need the upgrades and you don't need their upgrades before you want them mostly)
hehe anyway cracklings are t3 as well. Wonder why the tier discussions break out now especially since sc2 is all about using a combination of units from different tech levels.
PS: speed was increased now for the bcs and they are awesome fast now xD. And damage was nerved before because they owned everything. Now they still own everything whats in the air thanks to their super high damage vs air, but have the same issue like the thors, need to stop to shoot, so they are easy to kite and ai abuse is really easy against them like with the thors.
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On April 01 2011 07:01 FeyFey wrote:i consider bc carrier and the ms t4 , maybe ultras too (ultras need the upgrades and you don't need their upgrades before you want them mostly) hehe anyway cracklings are t3 as well. Wonder why the tier discussions break out now especially since sc2 is all about using a combination of units from different tech levels.
TBH the cracklings in sc2 are no where near destructive as the ones in BW. I would not consider them t3 at all.
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I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all.
And for the rest: I classify ghosts/tanks/banshees/ravens/templars/immortals/mutas/corrupters all t2.5, and I didnt include Mothership because its a special case. If I have some time later I'll try to add some stuff in, maybe for High Temps or the Mothership, since High temps can go either 2.5 or 3 really. I know I should have included upgrades, and I may update it providing I have time tonight, but I'm pretty busy. I'll try to get on that soon. Thanks for the feedback.
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On April 01 2011 07:15 Premier wrote:
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all.
You want T3 units to win the game through their sheer presence. You want them to demolish everything just because there's nothing more expensive to get. This would be bad gameplay and stupid because then every game would result in 1 guy rushing to T3 while the other goes all in just before he can make use it.
Your point of view is flawed since you only consider your personal experience. You playing random is not a particular strong argument for you. Most games end before the lategame and even if they don't your playtime in the lategame of a race is only a third (actually it's even less if you take matchups into account) of a player who focuses on 1 race. Also you didn't even tell us what league you're playing in - you could be playing in bronze for all we know.
My point is you don't know enough about the game and/or put way too less effort into the OP for it to be valid. Back up your arguments with replays otherwise it's just theorycraft.
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On April 01 2011 08:07 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 07:15 Premier wrote:
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all. You want T3 units to win the game through their sheer presence. You want them to demolish everything just because there's nothing more expensive to get. This would be bad gameplay and stupid because then every game would result in 1 guy rushing to T3 while the other goes all in just before he can make use it. Your point of view is flawed since you only consider your personal experience. You playing random is not a particular strong argument for you. Most games end before the lategame and even if they don't your playtime in the lategame of a race is only a third (actually it's even less if you take matchups into account) of a player who focuses on 1 race. Also you didn't even tell us what league you're playing in - you could be playing in bronze for all we know. My point is you don't know enough about the game and/or put way too less effort into the OP for it to be valid. Back up your arguments with replays otherwise it's just theorycraft.
Except templar and colossus do just what you described.... as do battle cruisers if you let a terran make 15 of them, as do thors.
How about carriers? :X
Tier 3 units can win games outright, it's just they are not that good until you make a lot of them. This is ESPECIALLY true for ultra/brood lords, which are absolute garbage in low numbers.
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On April 01 2011 08:07 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 07:15 Premier wrote:
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all. You want T3 units to win the game through their sheer presence. You want them to demolish everything just because there's nothing more expensive to get. This would be bad gameplay and stupid because then every game would result in 1 guy rushing to T3 while the other goes all in just before he can make use it. Your point of view is flawed since you only consider your personal experience. You playing random is not a particular strong argument for you. Most games end before the lategame and even if they don't your playtime in the lategame of a race is only a third (actually it's even less if you take matchups into account) of a player who focuses on 1 race. Also you didn't even tell us what league you're playing in - you could be playing in bronze for all we know. My point is you don't know enough about the game and/or put way too less effort into the OP for it to be valid. Back up your arguments with replays otherwise it's just theorycraft.
What I want is a unit that doenst get destroyed by a few t1 units. 1 marauder and like... 1 marine could kill an ultralisk. a single viking could kill a carrier or battlecruiser. I want t3 units to be more than a money dump, and be more cost efficient vs armies than t1 or t2 is. I wish that t3 units had more bang for the buck, as they are a huge money and time obligation, and they really aren't that good with the exception of the colossus and thor. The brood lord is good as well, but tech to it is just ridiculous.
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Terran tiers:
t1 barracks
t1.5 barracks techlab
t2 ghost academy, factory
t2.5 factory techlab
t3 starport, armory
t3.5 starport techlab
t4 battlecruiser
this tier system is based on structure requirement and not "size" or "bigness of effect" the unit has.
Zerg tiers would he
t1 spawning pool
tier 1.5 roach warren, baneling nest
tier 2 lair
tier 2.5 hydra den, infestor pit, spire
tier 3 hive
tier 3.5 ultralisk den, greater spire
Protoss tiers
t1 gateway
t1.5 cybernetics core
t2 robotics bay, stargate
t3 Templar archives, dark shrine, robotics facility, fleet beacon
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On April 01 2011 06:50 Staboteur wrote:Terran tech times to Thor : Total (4:35)+ Show Spoiler +Thor : (60)
armory (65)
Tech lab (while armory)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30) Battlecruiser : (90)
Fusion Core (65)
Tech lab (while fusion core)
Starport (50)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30) Ultralisk : (70)
Ultra Cavern (65)
Hive (100)
Infestation Pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65) Brood lord : (73) or (33) w corruptor premade
Greater spire (100)
Spire (while Hive)
Hive (100)
Infestation pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65) Colossus : (75) or (50) chronoboosted 3x (? confirmation anyone!? :D)
Robotics Bay (65)
Robotics Facility (65)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25) Carrier : (120) or (80) chronoboosted 4x (? Confirmation anyone!? :D)
Fleet beacon (60)
Stargate (60)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25)
I hope you realize this shows nothing? Nobody builds this from the start of a game. And you say a broodlord is 7:08 ... well, what's the build time on 6 brood lords? It's the same!
Races are different - if you want similar choices no matter what - go play chess!
While interesting, this only shows your trail of thoughts and comes off more as a QQ-threat (and a nerf-colossus one at that) and that's what TL needs.
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On April 01 2011 06:48 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 06:36 ilovelings wrote:
Collosus are a must in all match ups.
I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus. Going Colossus is probably the easiest way to go because it does splash damage which is incredibly potent on its own but it's not a necessity. I hope people get better at dealing with Colossi builds and start to really abuse its weaknesses when people just go blindly Colossus every game.
What are the weaknesses of colossi...
While I won't go so far as to say that their imbalanced (this game is still evolving), I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus; If you don't have any suggestions as to how the colossi is weak and how to abuse that weakness (coming from a toss perspective) then why would you even bother posting? Your post brings less to the conversation than ilovelings does.
As far as a weakness in the colossi gameplan I would say that once scouting the colossi you could possibly switch to almost all corrupters while getting GS and working on sniping the colossi before they push out (you have the problem of not having enough stuff though). I would really Like to see some games where the zerg goes for heavy air dominance (to the point of almost camping the robo's) and then getting b-lords for the win. The problem with this is the same problem with going mass muta, The toss can just go kill you.
OT:
Thor: great unit with a lot of weaknesses and some very obvious strengths.
Battlecruiser: With it's speed increase thors might show up more in late game TvP because they won't be wrecked by HT so much. I wouldn't advocate changing this unit.
Colossi: one of the most talked about units in the game... Not going to go there
Carrier: this unit is affected by upgrades more than any other unit in game. While it hasn't seen play yet it has potential (granted I would like to see it returned to bw status). taking the VR into account I think that toss air tech is fine
Mothership: takes all the same buildings as carriers, if a carrier build came out of nowhere I think we would see more motherships
HT/DT: The tech path to get to HT is pretty intuitive. Even though colossi is the main unit to be made there is a lot of potential for HT
Ultralisk: I love ultralisks. Personally I think that with more wide open maps we will begin to see ultras coming into play more. While it takes forever to get to hive tech and making these units, with Ling/bling/infester/ultra I see potential.
Broodlords: long tech path, insanely powerful, slow moving fortress, morphs from Z's natural AA... keep em
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On April 01 2011 06:47 Toothless`xelrae wrote:
problem is, tier 3 for Terran and Protoss is much more accessible in the midgame (Thors and Collosi) compared to zerg.
True. But do you know why? Because toss but mainly Terran rely on tier 1 and 1.5 which are generally less gas intensive so they can get the gass heavy tier 3 that they rely on. Zerg masses tier 2 units almost exclusively. Huge hydra and huge muta numbers are what we see. With the infestor buff I have done ling infestor ultra exclusively in zvt and all I have to say is wow. Other than upgrades you go straight to hive for ultra and crackling andrenalnglands. You get faster ultras and it's really strong. The reason I can is because I'm not spending 800 gas on 8 mutas. Ad for those who haven't tried this it absolutely wrecks bio tank and a few Thor style Terran play
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On April 01 2011 08:13 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 08:07 Ravomat wrote:On April 01 2011 07:15 Premier wrote:
I said this specifically to alot of people, I'm not biased whatsoever. I play all random, and use all three races consistently. Tier three is just supposed to be the best set of units in the game, but really their not that strong at all. You want T3 units to win the game through their sheer presence. You want them to demolish everything just because there's nothing more expensive to get. This would be bad gameplay and stupid because then every game would result in 1 guy rushing to T3 while the other goes all in just before he can make use it. Except templar and colossus do just what you described.... as do battle cruisers if you let a terran make 15 of them, as do thors.
No, they don't. They are only effective in ball vs ball battles which they are supposed to do. Only Colossi or only templar (read: no support whatsoever) don't do anything.
I already explained it in this thread but I'll do it again: Apparently Premier tried rushing to T3 units and the only unit which can be consistently made good use of when rushed to is the Colossus. The thing is every unit has a role. The Colossus is because of its splash damage very good in ball vs ball battles. These battles will sooner or later occur in every game.
Now if you look to other T3 units their use is not as obvious. You need a gameplan for them to be useful. These gameplans include to get a economy to support building them, to get upgrades to increase their lifespans and damage output, a unit composition to maximize their effectiveness and tactics (most obvious one: techswitches e.g. ZvT Broodlord to force vikings into Ultralisks).
If you let someone get 15 BCs you didn't respond properly.
I won't argue that Colossi are the most useful or that they are the easiest high tech unit to use.
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TL;DR for my above post^ it's because t and p rely on tier 1 and 1.5 a lot and can get tier 3 quickly. Zerg go for heavy tier 2 which is a big gas dump so tier 3 is harder
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The example of zerg tier 2 is Roach which is really cheap (comparatively) to both races. Heavy muta is gas intensive and so it infester but that's not the reason zerg is hesitant to get tier 3 >.>
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The topic should be better named as "A Brief Analysis of Massive Units". It's arguable what counts as tier 3 and what doesn't, since starport units and templar can be counted as tier 3.
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On April 01 2011 05:33 Premier wrote:
The Colossus
The Colossi is a GREAT unit. Maybe even too great. I play toss quite a bit and I will hardly ever not go Colossi. In PvT they tear apart bio balls, and in TvZ they eliminate everything on the ground. They are an extremely mobile unit that really has one big weakness, and that is that it can be hit by vikings or corrupters and so on. Overall, it is a fantastic unit, in my opinion, the best tier 3 unit in the game by a long shot.
I have to agree on that, but we don't see enough Colossi in TvZ.
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Anyone else get bothered when people still try to classify Terran into tiers?
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On April 01 2011 09:12 AlgoFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 05:33 Premier wrote:
The Colossus
The Colossi is a GREAT unit. Maybe even too great. I play toss quite a bit and I will hardly ever not go Colossi. In PvT they tear apart bio balls, and in TvZ they eliminate everything on the ground. They are an extremely mobile unit that really has one big weakness, and that is that it can be hit by vikings or corrupters and so on. Overall, it is a fantastic unit, in my opinion, the best tier 3 unit in the game by a long shot.
I have to agree on that, but we don't see enough Colossi in TvZ.
Fixed Though it is true, Colossi do quite a bit of damage to a roach/hydra ball or any similar composition.
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Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop.
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On April 01 2011 08:27 lorkac wrote:
Terran tiers:
t1 barracks
t1.5 barracks techlab
t2 ghost academy, factory
t2.5 factory techlab
t3 starport, armory
t3.5 starport techlab
t4 battlecruiser
this tier system is based on structure requirement and not "size" or "bigness of effect" the unit has.
Zerg tiers would he
t1 spawning pool
tier 1.5 roach warren, baneling nest
tier 2 lair
tier 2.5 hydra den, infestor pit, spire
tier 3 hive
tier 3.5 ultralisk den, greater spire
Protoss tiers
t1 gateway
t1.5 cybernetics core
t2 robotics bay, stargate
t3 Templar archives, dark shrine, robotics facility, fleet beacon
Tiers as described by Blizzard quite awhile ago:
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On April 01 2011 10:09 FluidTek wrote:
Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop.
No, carriers just have the highest instantaneous damage - 5x2x8=80/shot. But they are actually pretty good pvz and pvt provided that you have adequate ground support. I find that they actually counter hydras pretty well because of the positioning advantage and the AI targeting interceptors. And vs terran you can mix it up with colossi for a strong mix.
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On April 01 2011 10:14 asdfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 10:09 FluidTek wrote:
Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop. No, carriers just have the highest instantaneous damage - 5x2x8=80/shot. But they are actually pretty good pvz and pvt provided that you have adequate ground support. I find that they actually counter hydras pretty well because of the positioning advantage and the AI targeting interceptors. And vs terran you can mix it up with colossi for a strong mix.
I heard differently. I heard that since interceptors aren't endless like brood lings, and because Hydras shoot so damn quickly that it's a lot better to focus the interceptors instead of the Carrier initially because with no interceptors the Carrier is useless.
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On April 01 2011 08:33 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 06:50 Staboteur wrote:Terran tech times to Thor : Total (4:35)+ Show Spoiler +Thor : (60)
armory (65)
Tech lab (while armory)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30) Battlecruiser : (90)
Fusion Core (65)
Tech lab (while fusion core)
Starport (50)
Factory (60)
Barracks (60)
Supply depot (30) Ultralisk : (70)
Ultra Cavern (65)
Hive (100)
Infestation Pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65) Brood lord : (73) or (33) w corruptor premade
Greater spire (100)
Spire (while Hive)
Hive (100)
Infestation pit (50)
Lair (80)
Pool (65) Colossus : (75) or (50) chronoboosted 3x (? confirmation anyone!? :D)
Robotics Bay (65)
Robotics Facility (65)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25) Carrier : (120) or (80) chronoboosted 4x (? Confirmation anyone!? :D)
Fleet beacon (60)
Stargate (60)
Cyber Core (50)
Gateway (65)
Pylon (25) I hope you realize this shows nothing? Nobody builds this from the start of a game. And you say a broodlord is 7:08 ... well, what's the build time on 6 brood lords? It's the same! Races are different - if you want similar choices no matter what - go play chess! While interesting, this only shows your trail of thoughts and comes off more as a QQ-threat (and a nerf-colossus one at that) and that's what TL needs.
I find this reply offensive, and here's why.
On April 01 2011 06:50 Staboteur wrote:
I think also worthy of note is the amount of time it takes to tech up to T3, and I believe this is where Zerg is hurt most. Though these blind rush scenarios I'm about to present are fully unrealistic, they do show the amount of time necessary to get there. Simply because you're not likely to rush straight to brood lords isn't a reason to write off the fact that they take forever to tech to.
I think a fair argument for these times would be pointing out that though Zerg T3 comes out a minute or two slower than the other races, Zerg can be making as many ultras/broodlords as he can afford at that point, whereas the other races are limited by their production facilities.
I dunno. I'm not trying to make any real point here, I just think that these numbers are valuable and relevant information.
This is the rest of the post you quoted, which explains everything you're whining about. Glad you could quote me out of context and/or just not fucking read.
I'd also like to point out that I never actually made any comparison or judgement whatsoever. I never even pointed to the Colossus, and then pointed to the Ultralisk, and said SEE PROTOSS? SEE? All that happened in your head. I made no gesture towards any imbalances whatsoever. I actually think Zerg T3 is badass, but the four minutes between not having a hive but needing T3 and actually having T3 is a little disturbing.
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On April 01 2011 10:09 FluidTek wrote:
Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop.
Units that have the same or more DPS than a Carrier:
Carrier DPS : 26.67 DPS
Battle Cruiser: 35.6 DPS (ground)
Thor: 46.9 DPS (ground)
Immortal: 33.8 DPS (vs. Armored)
DT: 26.6 DPS
Colossus: 18.2 DPS (when attacking >=2 Targets)
Ultraisk: 46.4 DPS (when attacking armored)
Broodlords: 20.4 - 32.8 DPS
Voidray: 26.6 DPS (vs. Armored)
Voidray: 31.96 DPS (vs. Massive)
The Carrier and the Broodlord DPS fluctuates greatly in battle due to the death of Interceptors/Broodlings.
Carrier also has one of the worst cost vs DPS ratios in the game IIRC, it is one of the most inefficient units in the game. The Cost per DPS ratio is so bad, that it is actually worse than Battlecruiser vs Air Cost vs DPS...
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Am I the only one who looked at Dommk's post and went "Where the hell is the lurker den button in game?"
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On April 01 2011 10:34 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 10:09 FluidTek wrote:
Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, if you let your opponent mass carriers it won't be pretty, plus i think they have 8 range or soemthing? In small numbers not cost effective, in a large ball its hard to stop. Units that have the same or more DPS than a Carrier: Carrier DPS : 26.67 DPS Battle Cruiser: 35.6 DPS (ground) Thor: 46.9 DPS (ground) Immortal: 33.8 DPS (vs. Armored) DT: 26.6 DPS Colossus: 18.2 DPS (when attacking >=2 Targets) Ultraisk: 46.4 DPS (when attacking armored) Broodlords: 20.4 - 32.8 DPS Voidray: 26.6 DPS (vs. Armored) Voidray: 31.96 DPS (vs. Massive) The Carrier and the Broodlord DPS fluctuates greatly in battle due to the death of Interceptors/Broodlings. Carrier also has one of the worst cost vs DPS ratios in the game IIRC, it is one of the most inefficient units in the game. The Cost per DPS ratio is so bad, that it is actually worse than Battlecruiser vs Air Cost vs DPS...
Lol my bad, this is Artosis's fault, he constantly says Carrier has the highest DPS in the game, i blame him.
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On April 01 2011 08:34 ixi.genocide wrote:
What are the weaknesses of colossi...
While I won't go so far as to say that their imbalanced (this game is still evolving), I'm sad to always read stuff like this about the Colossus; If you don't have any suggestions as to how the colossi is weak and how to abuse that weakness (coming from a toss perspective) then why would you even bother posting? Your post brings less to the conversation than ilovelings does.
You're right, I'm sorry.
The Colossus' main strength is its splash damage. This makes it really important that you get a good arc on the Protoss army while reducing his arc on your army. You could for example draw his zealot escort to your base where you have a clever simcity or bunkers to reduce their effectiveness and then you move in a squad from behind and attack them directly.
Here's what I think about the Colossus' weaknesses:
#1: They need support. Sentries are the most helpful unit in a Colossus deathball. You absolutely need to kill or EMP them twice (patch 1.3).
#2: They are expensive to get. The earlier the Protoss tries to get them the more susceptible he is.
(The Colossus is often called a slow unit. I don't why because it's as fast as a Sentry or Zealot without Charge.)
How you can abuse it depends on the map/terrain, your scouting information (How do you want to abuse something you don't know about?). Another thing to note is that here is more than one way to achieve a victory over your opponent: having more stuff than him and kill him straight up, chip away at him until he crumbles and falls or deceive him and take him by surprise (like what MC did to July though he could have known it's not a 3gate expand). The thing with deception is it only works against people who react and know what they are doing. An example if I see a lot of zerglings and spine crawlers I expect mutas and infestors since the patch so I'd prepare by getting blink and setting up HT tech. I'd most likely skip the Robo for now. Now if you come at me with a gazillion roaches with burrow I'm in for a lot of trouble because all I have to keep me alive is my lonely cannon (I always build a cannon in PvZ).
The most important thing when dealing with anything is to know it's coming. What you need to do is to actively look for tells before real scouting can be done (via observer/scan/changeling) and thoroughly scout when it is available. So when you play a lot of games you'll recognize patterns and are able to draw conclusions every time you see this pattern and abuse them. Many players just do whatever their standard build wants them to don't think at all.
Another thing you can do: experiment! Use what you have available in different ways. E.g. You 1-rax FE'd and went up to 3rax and you see a zealot/sentry expand. Now you would without a thought go for a reactored starport for medievacs and eventually vikings. Try a blue flame hellion drop - not necessarily to kill probes but to attack the sentries from behind - synced with a MM push at the front. Or 2 port banshee off 2 banshee. Note I have no idea how it would play out. My point is there are options unexplored.
So I play Protoss. I was at ~3700 Masters when season 1 ended. Could have gotten higher but who cares. Since the only time I have to deal with Colossi is PvP and I don't want to makes guesses what Terran and Zergs could do (even though I'd say I have a pretty good understanding of the game).
So here are the tells I look for: every time I see my opponent Protoss getting a 2nd gas with a heavy zealot emphasis I expand immediately and get a forge + cannon for dts though it's always helpful and cost effective. I immediately start upgrading my +1 with constant chronoboosts. It will finish just before his push arrives at my base. Sometimes when I feel ballsy I move up with all my stalkers and make him believe I'm going blink so he might get an immortal if he's scared. Also I keep a probe on the map to see what he's doing I specifically check his natural and occupy Xel'Naga watchtowers. So now I wait until he moves out and all I do is constantly warp in Zealots and Stalkers off 5 warpgates and 1 gas and I build probes. I naturally have some proxy pylons on the map. I use it to send some zealots directly into his mineral line. Since I have refined this build I win in 100% of my games against a 1 base Colossus all in.
TLDR Scout! When he is weak: attack him. When he is safe: avoid him, expand and get upgrades. When you engage make sure it's on your terms. "Force him to make tough decisions."*
* An enlightenment provided by Day[9]
P.S. You might have noticed it is a lot of general stuff. After all it's a Real Time Strategy game. If you're afraid of Colossi you should try to develop ways to punish someone really hard for trying to get them.
edit: grammer and stuff
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Protoss has four "tier 3" units.
HT with storm require about the same amount of time as a collossus, so they're more or less "tier 3." If they're not, then archon definitely is.
Carriers are definitely "tier 3."
Then there's the two that you mentioned.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.sc2rocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Protoss-Tech-Tree1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft2-elites.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Terran-Tech-Tree.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.sc2rocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/zerg_tech_tree.jpg)
