EPT[G] PvT 2 Gate Fast Obs FE - Page 3
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 24 2011 01:28 kcdc wrote: I don't use this build much because it's a little too middle-of-the-road for my taste, but according to Artosis, if you see the beginning of a marine+raven+???? push, you can go 1-base colossus and just kill them every time. I don't know if it's true tho. Idk, Raven + Marine can snipe obs and usually that composition is accompanied with Banshees and/or Tanks. If you can snipe an observer, you can clean up everything with the banshees. I disagree with Artosis' statement that Colossus rush beats it. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:49 Lobber wrote: Against the Ghost push Antimage, with the new patch change (Ghosts only do 100 energy dmg/emp) Do you think toss might have a better time holding that or is it still going to hard counter this opening? Although I usually don't like to theorycraft and would rather rely on having played it out a lot, I would agree with this. I don't think 3 rax CC bio/ghost type openings are going to be good at all anymore. They were already bad and relied on hitting perfect EMPs, and now that even perfect EMPs can't prevent force fields, it seems like they'll be basically an autoloss against a player who is macroing well. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote: Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations? 1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder? 2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now? 3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings? 4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo? I wanted to answer these because my answer varies a bit from the answers already given: 1. I always rush phoenix out straight away when I see this. Phoenixes are amazing for stopping any banshee/raven/tank pushes and also counter banshee harass nicely, if they expand they also harass themselves pretty well and the phoenix are never useless if you use them to transition into phoenix + colossi later. Using colossi is also possible but is a worse answer imo: - colossus tech is slower and more expensive so a bit harder to get out in time. Banshee's are also quite good for sniping colossi actually, especially since your stalker fire will be completely negated by PDD at first. - colossus tech only allows your robo to make colossi, stargate tech actually means you can make immortals and phoenix at the same time so you can cut 1 gateway. Saving some money against a 1 base timing push is always helpful. - phoenix tech is much more versatile then colossus tech against a tech lab starport. Colossi aren't as good vs marauder + banshee + raven pushes or tank heavy pushes. With phoenix you can't go wrong as anything coming from the starport and factory is a good target for your phoenix. The only exception here are thors but you'll be making immortals as well so that won't be a problem (the terrible mobility of immortals is no longer an issue if you have phoenix). If he is switching to some sort of mech or banshee + thor play you can simply transition into voidray/carrier quite quickly whereas colossus tech would be pretty much dead against that. - phoenixes provide scouting while your observers come back home to defend potential cloak harass. 2. Never cancel the expo against a tech build. If you fear losing it you simply don't put any other buildings at your natural. If he does push with mass scv and other units you can always retreat at that moment still and sacrifice that nexus. If he pulled his scv's all over the map for that it was already worth it. 3. Really depends on the distance between your robo and their expansion. Anything but really close makes it practically impossible to pressure their expansion because immortals are so slow. His mostly marine mix will also be quite good against gateway + immortals. Only at something like close spawn metalopolis do I think a immortal bust can be succesful in this scenario, unless of course you proxied the robo. A good thing you can do if you see them expanding so quickly is to go for quick drops with a warp prism, especially if you are close by air. His no gas expansion means stim (especially in 1.3) and vikings will both be very late so your warp prism can fly around quite freely. Just load up some stalkers and zealots and you can often do good damage in his minerals lines while expanding yourself. A fine trick is even to load up that first sentry in your prism and then drop his main while keeping his marines out by forcefielding his ramp twice. If that succeeds you can really wreck his main. If he did a inbase expansion and has to fly his OC over you won't actually be that far behind if you just expand after your 2 gate robo. You can gain back some ground by continously boosting your nexi afterwards. 4. Yes, it's safe. The Sjow style is quite hard to beat though if done well and I'm not really sure what the best way to deal with it is yet. Usually I just go colossi still with some more stalkers, using the stalkers to deflect drops and then pushing at 3 colossi but if he drops really well this is tough. Perhaps dual upgrades are indeed better against this. Immortals are almost completely useless against this style though, the fact they can't shoot up and are so slow make them really crap in this scenario. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote: Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations? 1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder? 2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now? 3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings? 4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo? 1. Against 1-1-1 builds I like to get templar out eventually, since phoenix are only really good if they are light on bio units or went dual port, while feedback+storm can deal with any 1-1-1 variation. So, I either defend with just gateway units+immortals or try to get charge, depending on what their unit composition seems to be. Also if they aren't going tanks it often helps to get a forge+cannons at the front. 2. If you responded by getting colossi, you're just behind if he has siege or a lot of banshees, because you cannot attack into him usually. If you went templar tech you can skimp on units and expand and then take a 3rd pretty early afterward since templar crush 1-1-1 compositions so hard. 3. Depends way too heavily on their followup. Colossi are good if they seem to be really marine heavy and are extremely late on their factory. 1 base immortal busts are really strong if they went for medivacs really quickly and you get there a little before medivacs come out. I tend to avoid 1 basing against T though, since I can't seem to bust through if the T is paranoid enough and builds a ton of bunkers. 4. Yes, just get 1 immortal and then do a 2 base colossus all-in. As long as you force field well against frontal attacks and don't get put behind by drops you will win. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote: Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations? 1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder? 2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now? 3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings? 4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo? For 3, you don't actually have an economic disadvantage. If you see there's no pressure coming, you can skip the immortal and make a really early nexus instead. With no marauder pressure, he's powerless to stop you from expanding off of 3 gateway units. To react to Terran's builds, I divide their builds into 3 main categories: 1-1-1 raven all-in: use 38 probes and get sentries with either cannons or non-range colossus vs banshee. Only 2 sentries if you poke and see a bunker as anything involving tanks will be impossibly hard to survive against if you have too many sentries. 1-1-1 expand: usually transitions into a biomech midgame. Double forge is extremely strong against this since their units are too diverse to match your upgrades. bio expand: fast colossus and double forge are both good vs this. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:47 Antimage wrote: This build isn't entirely safe - it dies to a 3 rax CC ghost push. I find a safer variation is to go zealot-sentry-second gateway-gas then robo or nexus (the order will depend on spawn locations) The later second gas allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early which is able to deal with ghosts. I have had a few people do this to me, and the results were skewed depending on their EMP. The first time I had my immortals and all sentries EMPed. After that, I always had a good spread and tried to force the Terran to engage, rather than vis versa. Edit: Since there was that ever so awesome EMP patch to both mitigate the effectiveness of Ghost rushes and match the loss of Khaydarin, I'd say (guess) Ghost rushes won't be nearly as good anymore. On March 23 2011 22:41 s00pr wrote: Isnt the first VOD a 3g FE rathen then any robo? :S Yeah it is, sorry. I deleted it. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On March 24 2011 01:35 PJA wrote: Although I usually don't like to theorycraft and would rather rely on having played it out a lot, I would agree with this. I don't think 3 rax CC bio/ghost type openings are going to be good at all anymore. They were already bad and relied on hitting perfect EMPs, and now that even perfect EMPs can't prevent force fields, it seems like they'll be basically an autoloss against a player who is macroing well. Well I'm thinking a fast ghost timing push where they have the CC about half done when they move out - no sentry should have 150 energy by then. It does have to do with micro, especially when spells like FF and EMP are in play. I don't play with a game clock but for sure you will have to make adjustments in order to defend against this - whether that is 3rd gate b4 robo, or chrono'ed out units - either way ghost play is dangerous against this opening which is why I highly advise against a focus on sentries, as well-micro'ed stalkers and zealots work well enough. | ||
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ensign_lee
United States1178 Posts
This is a great guide though! One more thing to have in my repertoire vs T (I usually 1 gate FE) | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On March 24 2011 02:53 ensign_lee wrote: One more argument for stalker first before sentry is that with the new stim +30 seconds, there is a smaller chance that your stalker will get caught with concussive and die during the initial poke. That makes no sense at all lol. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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Qaz
84 Posts
I thinks his reasoning is that terrans usually get concussive after getting stim, which isn't always the case. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
That 1-1-1 banshee raven timing? It hits after your FE has already paid for itself - like 10-11 mins right? - so regardless of unit composition I feel you're maybe even in a better position. It's just a stupidly hard build to defend against. | ||
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ExoD
United States37 Posts
EDIT: what i mean is, I usually prefer getting a stalker before the sentry | ||
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hejakev
Sweden518 Posts
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HellRush
Canada68 Posts
 But their is one thing in particular that i would like your advice for, even if you did brefly mention it in the follow up : If you see a marine//tank push you're going to need Immortals, Zealots and Sentries. A warp prism with an immortal drop can also help tremendously. Could you explain a bit more what you would do in that particular situation, because i have been losing to this quite a lot recently, and honestly i just dont know what to do against it, basicly the terran will do a marine/tank/bunker countain , and then he will unseage is tank one by one to gain ground on me slowly. I tried to get lot'S of imortals withs blink stalkers ( Immortals to tank the dmg of the tank and blink to snipe them fast but it didn't work out so well, i still got owned in the end  | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 24 2011 04:51 HellRush wrote: Thx Cecil for that BO, i have been trying to incoporate this strat in my PvT for a while and this is surely gonna help a lot But their is one thing in particular that i would like your advice for, even if you did brefly mention it in the follow up : Could you explain a bit more what you would do in that particular situation, because i have been losing to this quite a lot recently, and honestly i just dont know what to do against it, basicly the terran will do a marine/tank/bunker countain , and then he will unseage is tank one by one to gain ground on me slowly. I tried to get lot'S of imortals withs blink stalkers ( Immortals to tank the dmg of the tank and blink to snipe them fast but it didn't work out so well, i still got owned in the end Yeah watch Genius's game at bottom of OP, perfect example! | ||
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HellRush
Canada68 Posts
I would like to watch the game, but i don't have the season ticket for Gomtv ... lol Is there a other good exemple somewhere ? Maybe one of your own replay ? It would be appreciated :D Or if anyone else know where i could find a other good replay, plz let me know. | ||
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