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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
Haha but in all seriousness, this is definitely the safest opener ever for Protoss. You get all the scouting info you need from that early observer, haven't committed too far down any one tech tree so you are able to transition to what you like AND you get a fast Nexus to give you a strong economic boost. Solid guide  Good stuff as always Cecil! | ||
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Shooks
Australia256 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 23 2011 21:47 Shooks wrote: Terrible to get a sentry first unless your somehow certain that he isn't going a reaper, to much of a risk of getting your sentry/probes killed a by a reaper by just getting a slightly quicker sentry. Zealot > Stalker > Sentry is better Lol. A zealot/sentry still gets the stalker in time with chrono-boost, also, a zealot/sentry easily holds down a reaper with forcefields. A sentry also has 5 range compared to the reaper's 4, so he really can't dodge. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
otherwise you open yourself up for Reaper harass early Marauders can be stopped with a couple probes and zealot stalker easily | ||
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tentoff
United States19 Posts
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s00pr
Sweden94 Posts
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
I find a safer variation is to go zealot-sentry-second gateway-gas then robo or nexus (the order will depend on spawn locations) The later second gas allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early which is able to deal with ghosts. | ||
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
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gejfsyd
Poland156 Posts
I prefer either agresive or eco openings, but that is just my opinion | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:52 57 Corvette wrote: Does this only work versus terran, or is it viable vs zerg as well? You want 3 gate expo with Zerg because zergs can overwhelm you too much with their units. Meanwhile, Terran has only limited producing structures, so you can usually hold it even with a 1 gate FE. Yes, as Protoss, the hardest things to hold sometimes are Zerg all-ins. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 23 2011 22:47 Antimage wrote: This build isn't entirely safe - it dies to a 3 rax CC ghost push. I find a safer variation is to go zealot-sentry-second gateway-gas then robo or nexus (the order will depend on spawn locations) The later second gas allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early which is able to deal with ghosts. Getting the second gas later is very inefficient. It means you are collecting minerals with more then 16 probes quicker so instead of collecting gas at full speed you are collecting a few extra minerals since those 3 extra mineral probes won´t be very efficient.. As for a 3 rax CC ghost push that can be dealt with as well. Since you can easily spot that build you can split your forces preEMPtively so the EMP won't hit too much. With guardian shield and mostly stalkers the build is fairly beatable then. If they do a 1 base ghost push you can simply cancel the nexus and quick tech to colossi. There is no way they can stop that then. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On March 23 2011 23:09 Markwerf wrote: Getting the second gas later is very inefficient. It means you are collecting minerals with more then 16 probes quicker so instead of collecting gas at full speed you are collecting a few extra minerals since those 3 extra mineral probes won´t be very efficient.. As for a 3 rax CC ghost push that can be dealt with as well. Since you can easily spot that build you can split your forces preEMPtively so the EMP won't hit too much. With guardian shield and mostly stalkers the build is fairly beatable then. If they do a 1 base ghost push you can simply cancel the nexus and quick tech to colossi. There is no way they can stop that then. It's inefficient? The variation with the second gas is justified as I said - "it allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early". Yes you're collecting fewer minerals with the additional probes for about a minute longer - but it makes a big difference when you're saving 400 for a nexus. The resultant difference is your unit composition. I feel comfortable getting units that do damage instead of sentries that are prone to getting EMP'ed and consequently being next to useless afterward. You can't always say you'll split preemptively - the terran player can manipulate your army movements by poking in and out bating forcefields and then sometimes pull off a money EMP | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder? 2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now? 3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings? 4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo? | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote: Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations? 1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder? 2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now? 3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings? 4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo? Just some thoughts... 1. Against any kind of 1-1-1 all-in I do indeed tech to colossi like crazy. Since I normally go for a 3 gate robo expo (tyler-style), depending on map and intel, I sometimes keep my nexus. Colossi are pivotal though, since the real damage-dealers are always the marines. Even if he has banshees, doesn't matter since you can reinforce with stalkers. But taking out the marines must be nr. 1 priority. Same against tanks, only difference would be that against this I'd get 1 or 2 immortals too. 2. If I did cancel my nexus I set it up again when my 2nd colossus is done. I move out at this exact point in time, since 2 colossi are able to clean up any number of marines he can have at this point in time after a 1-1-1. Although I'm generally quite comfortable against one base pushes with fast colossi, so I usually don't cancel the nexus. 3. Immortal busts work, but are highly dependent on the number of bunkers. Since marines are actually awsome vs immortals, they will die if the bunker-count is too high. I'm currently theory-crafting exactly vs this and my results thus far are, that you are NOT behind much if you constantly chrono-boost probes. And by that I mean chrono-boosting in a way similar to larva-inject of zerg, always chrono-boosting exactly at 25 energy. Terrans usually cut come scvs to get up more raxes and put up ridiculous amounts of bunkers to be safe against immortal-pushs. Again teching straight to colossi usually works ok. Also using double forge works out fine. 4. Definitely safe to keep the expo, although it's really hard to play against this style. I think you are refering to the style Sjow plays vs toss. Usually I use double forge vs this, since it's inevitable to split up your units. He will do many multi-pronged attacks, sometimes using 2 simultaneous medivac-drops, sometimes doing one drop and attacking the front at the same time. Teching straight to colossi is imo really vulnerable against this, mispositioning the colossi only slightly could end up badly. | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote: Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations? 1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder? 2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now? 3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings? 4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo? For #1 I find that with relatively FE builds against raven all in off 1 base you need quite a few sentries, but to spend a lot of minerals on cannons (3-5) as you tech to colossus. I often do a 3 gate expand and still have time for at least 1 col by the time the push hits (sometimes I have to hold off with FF) But scout the 1 base all in, get colossus and cannons, cut as few probes as possible but make sure you can hold (if you have to pull you won't always to too far ahead, be sure you can pull and still be ahead of his eco if he decides to expand) For #2 Why cancel expo? The fast robo means you can stop cloaked banshee, and raven all in I talked about a bit. It seems the hardest thing to counter against the 1-1-1 with this hellion drop/play. Since you are low in stalkers and sentries/zealots are a bit slower it can be a problem. I haven't had too much trouble with it unless there's a build I haven't encountered much. #3 You can scout that with your probe, react accordingly. Just because you're planning a build doesn't mean you have to do that build no matter what. He 1 rax expands, 2 gate robo timing push, 1 gate FE, 1 gate no cyber FE... There are a lot of options when his ability to pressure is so low. #4 If your expo survives then you win, even if you pull and lose all your expo's probes. Sometimes you can get colossus in time, really depends on how late he moves out. I again recommend cannons if you know he's basically all in, if not sentry, zealot, probe pull can handle it with really good FF and GS, it's tough but if you learn all the timings of different MM or MMM pushes off 1 base you can usually cut probes at the right time and react accordingly. Sorry these are kind of rushed and I'd like some replays for them maybe but I got to get to class soon  Oh and thanks CecilSunkure for all these topics you're making, very good builds and well thought out :D | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote: Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations? 1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder? 2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now? 3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings? 4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo? I use this build all the time. High diamond, mostly because my mechanics are crap. 1. I personally think zealot sentry immortal takes care of almost all of those scenarios. Especially now that stim timing is different. I find you need at least a few stalkers though to help discourage kiting if your FF aren't perfect. 2. I typically don't cancel my expo unless I see 3 rax, maybe that's not ideal, but it seems to work out more often than not. Either way you should have great information about what he is doing and you can always cut probes and try to power out more units if you think he's pushing. You should have a decent econ lead if you were good with your probes early on. 3. I agree, you don't have a great way to punish T for doing a 1 Rax FE FE with this build. I'm actually hoping someone comments further on this. Possibly a 5 gate timing push with an immortal thrown in? 4. I believe you can hold this off, again knowing what they are doing allows you to be flexible about what you are doing and adapt. Most of the time when I lose using this build it's because I didn't scout/react well, or I get caught with a drop, or my macro slipped for some reason ( *cough* pylon block *cough* ). Besides that, I have the opposite problem when i don't do this build. The lack of information causes me to do something that's not particularly effective against what T is doing. Having said that I'm experimenting with more aggressive builds to try and mix it up, so I definitely think you should have both types of openings in your bag of tricks. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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