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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
Your best bet is 3 Gate aggro --> delay [enemy] expansion, or 1/2 Gate expo. iirc the standard time to fear banshees is 7 minutes 30 seconds (have detection in the form of cannon or observer just about that time). Edit: At lower levels this build should be perfectly fine, but higher on the ladder people start taking advantage of things detailed in this post and thusly this build will get you out-macroed. | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
Currently this build is great because a lot of my opponent try to all in me so I can scout that, cancel my nexus, and then hold off the all-in and win the game. However I fear that if I did a 1/2 gate expo then there would be no way for me to know that I was being all-in's (vs terran in particular, I can detect zerg all-ins easily because of expo timings and mining gas). What do you think? Should I stick to this build and Liquid tyler's double forge build for PvT? or try out a 1/2 gate expo and risk getting all-in'd? Thanks. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On May 07 2011 13:02 Perplex wrote: Hey cecil, I just saw your most recent reply and I must say it has me a little bit confused. Currently this build is great because a lot of my opponent try to all in me so I can scout that, cancel my nexus, and then hold off the all-in and win the game. However I fear that if I did a 1/2 gate expo then there would be no way for me to know that I was being all-in's (vs terran in particular, I can detect zerg all-ins easily because of expo timings and mining gas). What do you think? Should I stick to this build and Liquid tyler's double forge build for PvT? or try out a 1/2 gate expo and risk getting all-in'd? Thanks. If you're winning with it, then keep using it! | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
a) Your expansion is slower than a Terran FE b) you're teching, so you don't have the army to put on any pressure to balance out a slower expansion This is where things like 3gate expansion and 1gate expansion builds come in. 3gate expand has a slightly slower expand than a 1rax or 2rax FE build, but you have a strong army and are able to put on pressure because you're not teching until post-expansion. And a 1gate expansion gets the expansion before the robo and extra infrastructure, so your expansion keeps up or is ahead of the Terran. | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
edit: yeah to the guy below i think poking with the first zealot on slag or in close positions metal/shattered is a must actually, since marauder slow is never going to be done | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Cink
United States93 Posts
 http://www.sc2builds.com/build-info.aspx?id=1627 And while I agree with you that this build is out of date as far as competitive play is concerned, it is still an excellent build for those who are interested in bettering their play to learn. I was reading your guide on improving and I quite liked what this build has to offer to silver-diamond league players for increasing their skill levels. This is why I decided to upload the build to sc2builds. | ||
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bigbigmac
Malaysia10 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On June 25 2011 01:37 bigbigmac wrote: Does this build favor any particular maps? I just tried it on Scrap Station and I got owned by the Terran, rushed with a couple of Marines and Marauders all rallied to my base. Maybe the choke on Scrap is too wide? Makes FF a little weak. Bad macro lost you the game  | ||
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panda_inc
Australia170 Posts
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T. Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days? | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote: Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build? Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T. Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days? I use 2gateFE and it holds all of those all-ins just fine. Of course I'm not saying it's easy to hold the 1/1/1 in general, I'm just saying 2gate FE gets your nexus up early enough that it would start to pay for itself before such an all-in hits. I really don't see 3rax breaking 2gate FE, but there are many variants of 3rax so please link a replay. 2Gate Robo is fine, it just gets the Nexus down later. | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2574 Posts
On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote: Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build? Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T. Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days? I used to use the 2 gate robo every PvT but I only do it once in a while now. I don't like the idea of changing your build just because of the metagame. A good build should be able to handle any other build with minor adaptations. It's like PvP where you have sort of build order gambles that can give you a decent advantage or disadvantage depending on what your opponent is doing. I don't like that idea and am really trying to make 1 gate fast expand work. I guess maybe you could try to be flexible and determine what build you're doing based on your map, spawn positions, and early scouting. | ||
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novabossa
United States350 Posts
On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote: Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build? Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T. Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days? I'm definitely leaning more towards this build. Terrans just seem to love doing 1 base all-ins nowadays. Even if they FE, it seems like a well-timed 2 immortal sentry push can punish the natural with good forcefields. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On August 19 2011 03:15 tuestresfat wrote: I use 2gateFE and it holds all of those all-ins just fine. Of course I'm not saying it's easy to hold the 1/1/1 in general, I'm just saying 2gate FE gets your nexus up early enough that it would start to pay for itself before such an all-in hits. I really don't see 3rax breaking 2gate FE, but there are many variants of 3rax so please link a replay. 2Gate Robo is fine, it just gets the Nexus down later. Do you go for the Zeal/Sentry/4Stalk poke with it? I find that 3 rax chases me down or even catches my units en route with concussive. Also, when do you throw down your Robo with your 2 gate FE? I haven't seen any good replays/VODs of a 2 gate holding a 1-1-1; perhaps it's more an issue of my macro/reaction timing than it is the build itself. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On August 19 2011 03:58 Snaphoo wrote: Do you go for the Zeal/Sentry/4Stalk poke with it? I find that 3 rax chases me down or even catches my units en route with concussive. Also, when do you throw down your Robo with your 2 gate FE? I haven't seen any good replays/VODs of a 2 gate holding a 1-1-1; perhaps it's more an issue of my macro/reaction timing than it is the build itself. I get 2nd gas right after Nexus and my robo during my pressure/contain IF I can not 100% rule out cloak banshees. If it is clear he is not going cloak banshees I will just skip robotics in early game. Usually I just get it ~6:30, a 4stalker/zeal/sentry pressure should be at his natural ~6:10. You need to be specific about the 3rax. Does he have stim? Does he pull SCVs? I still struggle quite a bit against 1/1/1, you probably don't want my advice about that. I've tried 3gate aggressive expanding in my recent PvTs with the intent of all-inning them if they are executing the 1/1/1 all in. If I expo, I know it will be too late before my Nexus will start to pay for itself, making the 1/1/1 near impossible to defend. I've had a bit of success with this, not a ton. I think it's great on Xel'naga since you can shut down their expo (if they went for one) pretty effectively, while it's rather hard to get back into a macro game or break them if they expoed on say shakuras. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
Conclusion: Good build for maps with short rush distances or close pos. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
That said, has anyone tried going aggressive with 1-3 immortals and 1-3 gateways worth of stuff while expanding, as opposed to having just gateway units? | ||
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