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[G] PvT 2 Gate Fast Obs FE - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 17:43:10
May 06 2011 17:40 GMT
#81
I'd say this build order is out of date. Getting a robo and two gateways before Nexus is going to put you behind if you play against an FE from the Terran. Also, two base Colossus gets dominated by an early third from the Terran.

Your best bet is 3 Gate aggro --> delay [enemy] expansion, or 1/2 Gate expo. iirc the standard time to fear banshees is 7 minutes 30 seconds (have detection in the form of cannon or observer just about that time).

Edit: At lower levels this build should be perfectly fine, but higher on the ladder people start taking advantage of things detailed in this post and thusly this build will get you out-macroed.
Perplex
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1693 Posts
May 07 2011 04:02 GMT
#82
Hey cecil, I just saw your most recent reply and I must say it has me a little bit confused.

Currently this build is great because a lot of my opponent try to all in me so I can scout that, cancel my nexus, and then hold off the all-in and win the game.

However I fear that if I did a 1/2 gate expo then there would be no way for me to know that I was being all-in's (vs terran in particular, I can detect zerg all-ins easily because of expo timings and mining gas).

What do you think? Should I stick to this build and Liquid tyler's double forge build for PvT? or try out a 1/2 gate expo and risk getting all-in'd?

Thanks.
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/24238059
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
May 07 2011 07:40 GMT
#83
On May 07 2011 13:02 Perplex wrote:
Hey cecil, I just saw your most recent reply and I must say it has me a little bit confused.

Currently this build is great because a lot of my opponent try to all in me so I can scout that, cancel my nexus, and then hold off the all-in and win the game.

However I fear that if I did a 1/2 gate expo then there would be no way for me to know that I was being all-in's (vs terran in particular, I can detect zerg all-ins easily because of expo timings and mining gas).

What do you think? Should I stick to this build and Liquid tyler's double forge build for PvT? or try out a 1/2 gate expo and risk getting all-in'd?

Thanks.

If you're winning with it, then keep using it!
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
May 09 2011 21:51 GMT
#84
I'm starting to use this build less and less. While it was standard two months ago, i think pressure into expansions and greedier builds have more utility right now. It's still the safest PvT build tho and i use it when i know i'm better than the person I'm playing. You just end up behind against a terran FE and can't put any real pressure on.
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
May 26 2011 06:21 GMT
#85
The main problem I'm finding with fast robo builds in PvT is that

a) Your expansion is slower than a Terran FE

b) you're teching, so you don't have the army to put on any pressure to balance out a slower expansion

This is where things like 3gate expansion and 1gate expansion builds come in. 3gate expand has a slightly slower expand than a 1rax or 2rax FE build, but you have a strong army and are able to put on pressure because you're not teching until post-expansion.

And a 1gate expansion gets the expansion before the robo and extra infrastructure, so your expansion keeps up or is ahead of the Terran.

Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
kyarisan
Profile Joined May 2010
United States347 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-26 08:29:24
May 26 2011 07:53 GMT
#86
I've always thought expanding after a robo is bad, personally. Dhalphir made some pretty good points, but I also want to say that I've had a lot of trouble holding 2 rax pressure or 3 rax pressure on some maps when going 2gate observer, especially back after the beta last year. The terran finds an opportunity to enclose you in your base with marauder/marine while taking their own expansion, and then you're pretty much behind the whole game. It might be possible in some positions to break out, but any map that has a tiny walk distance makes a fast observer build dangerous, IMO.

edit: yeah to the guy below i think poking with the first zealot on slag or in close positions metal/shattered is a must actually, since marauder slow is never going to be done
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-26 08:14:28
May 26 2011 08:11 GMT
#87
I suggest poking with the first zealot. 1st there is absolutely no reason for it to stay home. It cant chase down scv anyway. 2nd many terrans dont wall and zealot often causes some havock mainly allowing to scout past the ramp and retreat. 3rd It is a great response to 1 rax fe with cc right on the nat. 4th the chances to lose the zealot are pretty low. Usually I only lose it to a fast reaper trading it to scouting info. The reaper is also then sacrificed for scouting so we end up even.
Cink
Profile Joined April 2010
United States93 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 17:27:16
May 27 2011 17:23 GMT
#88
I just wanted to let you know that I recorded myself performing this build in YABOT and uploaded the result to sc2builds. I did the 13 gate scout variation for this recording and I credited you. I am by no means a good player however so if any of these numbers don't look quite right to you let me know. I can only do so much with 140apm after all.

http://www.sc2builds.com/build-info.aspx?id=1627

And while I agree with you that this build is out of date as far as competitive play is concerned, it is still an excellent build for those who are interested in bettering their play to learn. I was reading your guide on improving and I quite liked what this build has to offer to silver-diamond league players for increasing their skill levels. This is why I decided to upload the build to sc2builds.
Samsung KHAN| Stork4Lyfe
bigbigmac
Profile Joined May 2011
Malaysia10 Posts
June 24 2011 16:37 GMT
#89
Does this build favor any particular maps? I just tried it on Scrap Station and I got owned by the Terran, rushed with a couple of Marines and Marauders all rallied to my base. Maybe the choke on Scrap is too wide? Makes FF a little weak.
"CHILL GET OUT" - NaNiwa, TSL3
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
June 24 2011 21:49 GMT
#90
On June 25 2011 01:37 bigbigmac wrote:
Does this build favor any particular maps? I just tried it on Scrap Station and I got owned by the Terran, rushed with a couple of Marines and Marauders all rallied to my base. Maybe the choke on Scrap is too wide? Makes FF a little weak.

Bad macro lost you the game
panda_inc
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia170 Posts
June 25 2011 00:27 GMT
#91
this build still owns 1-1-1 openings hard. so if you just happen to scout bunker, odd number marines, or 2 gas. DO THIS BUILD!
Snaphoo
Profile Joined July 2010
United States614 Posts
August 18 2011 18:05 GMT
#92
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?

Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.

Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?

tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
August 18 2011 18:15 GMT
#93
On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?

Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.

Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?


I use 2gateFE and it holds all of those all-ins just fine. Of course I'm not saying it's easy to hold the 1/1/1 in general, I'm just saying 2gate FE gets your nexus up early enough that it would start to pay for itself before such an all-in hits.

I really don't see 3rax breaking 2gate FE, but there are many variants of 3rax so please link a replay.

2Gate Robo is fine, it just gets the Nexus down later.
AirbladeOrange
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2573 Posts
August 18 2011 18:19 GMT
#94
On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?

Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.

Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?



I used to use the 2 gate robo every PvT but I only do it once in a while now. I don't like the idea of changing your build just because of the metagame. A good build should be able to handle any other build with minor adaptations.

It's like PvP where you have sort of build order gambles that can give you a decent advantage or disadvantage depending on what your opponent is doing. I don't like that idea and am really trying to make 1 gate fast expand work.

I guess maybe you could try to be flexible and determine what build you're doing based on your map, spawn positions, and early scouting.
novabossa
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States350 Posts
August 18 2011 18:30 GMT
#95
On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?

Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.

Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?



I'm definitely leaning more towards this build. Terrans just seem to love doing 1 base all-ins nowadays. Even if they FE, it seems like a well-timed 2 immortal sentry push can punish the natural with good forcefields.
Rachel: First game. oGsMC: Yea. Rachel: Dark Templar. oGsMC: Yea. Rachel: Countered. oGsMC: Yea. Rachel: Were you worried? oGsMC: What?
Snaphoo
Profile Joined July 2010
United States614 Posts
August 18 2011 18:58 GMT
#96
On August 19 2011 03:15 tuestresfat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?

Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.

Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?


I use 2gateFE and it holds all of those all-ins just fine. Of course I'm not saying it's easy to hold the 1/1/1 in general, I'm just saying 2gate FE gets your nexus up early enough that it would start to pay for itself before such an all-in hits.

I really don't see 3rax breaking 2gate FE, but there are many variants of 3rax so please link a replay.

2Gate Robo is fine, it just gets the Nexus down later.


Do you go for the Zeal/Sentry/4Stalk poke with it? I find that 3 rax chases me down or even catches my units en route with concussive.

Also, when do you throw down your Robo with your 2 gate FE? I haven't seen any good replays/VODs of a 2 gate holding a 1-1-1; perhaps it's more an issue of my macro/reaction timing than it is the build itself.
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
August 18 2011 21:50 GMT
#97
On August 19 2011 03:58 Snaphoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2011 03:15 tuestresfat wrote:
On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?

Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.

Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?


I use 2gateFE and it holds all of those all-ins just fine. Of course I'm not saying it's easy to hold the 1/1/1 in general, I'm just saying 2gate FE gets your nexus up early enough that it would start to pay for itself before such an all-in hits.

I really don't see 3rax breaking 2gate FE, but there are many variants of 3rax so please link a replay.

2Gate Robo is fine, it just gets the Nexus down later.


Do you go for the Zeal/Sentry/4Stalk poke with it? I find that 3 rax chases me down or even catches my units en route with concussive.

Also, when do you throw down your Robo with your 2 gate FE? I haven't seen any good replays/VODs of a 2 gate holding a 1-1-1; perhaps it's more an issue of my macro/reaction timing than it is the build itself.

I get 2nd gas right after Nexus and my robo during my pressure/contain IF I can not 100% rule out cloak banshees. If it is clear he is not going cloak banshees I will just skip robotics in early game. Usually I just get it ~6:30, a 4stalker/zeal/sentry pressure should be at his natural ~6:10.

You need to be specific about the 3rax. Does he have stim? Does he pull SCVs?

I still struggle quite a bit against 1/1/1, you probably don't want my advice about that. I've tried 3gate aggressive expanding in my recent PvTs with the intent of all-inning them if they are executing the 1/1/1 all in. If I expo, I know it will be too late before my Nexus will start to pay for itself, making the 1/1/1 near impossible to defend. I've had a bit of success with this, not a ton. I think it's great on Xel'naga since you can shut down their expo (if they went for one) pretty effectively, while it's rather hard to get back into a macro game or break them if they expoed on say shakuras.
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 22:20:12
September 19 2011 22:18 GMT
#98
--- Nuked ---
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
September 19 2011 22:25 GMT
#99
I've actually done this build a few times on ladder recently just to try it out. I've found that most of the time it's only worth it if you are planning on hitting a strong timing with 2 fast Colossi, but if you get those Colossi out and do nothing with them you quickly fall behind in eco.

Conclusion: Good build for maps with short rush distances or close pos.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 22:54:26
September 19 2011 22:54 GMT
#100
I've always wondered when and if a fast robo build like this can be aggressive. The biggest reason why people started doing 3gate rather than 2gate obs was because the nexus timings were almost identical, but with 3gate you can almost outright kill a terran in certain situations.
That said, has anyone tried going aggressive with 1-3 immortals and 1-3 gateways worth of stuff while expanding, as opposed to having just gateway units?
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
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