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Overview
This is the safest opening in the PvT world currently. The idea behind this opening is to quickly get out an observer while laying a nexus down. Once your observer figures out what the Terran is doing you can react appropriately, even cancelling your Nexus if need be.
Overall you make a Gateway, Robo, Gateway, Nexus, Observer --> React. Pretty simple.
I advise most of my students to use this build when they are looking to improve quickly (see signature). This is because I believe the best builds to use are ones that get you as a player the most information about the game, thus allowing the potential for learning moments to occur vastly frequent, compared to defensive or blind styles and openings.
The Opening Build
- 9 Pylon
- 13 Gateway
- 14 Assimilator
- 16 Pylon
- @100% Gateway: Cybernetics Core
- While Cybernetics is constructing: Zealot; 2nd Assimilator
- 21-22 Pylon
- @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate Research (Chrono'd); Sentry (Chrono'd)
- @100% Sentry; Stalker
- Robo @ 200 Minerals
- Gateway @ 150 Minerals
- @100% Robo; Observer (Chrono'd)
- Nexus
- Pylon at Ramp
- Warp in Sentries*
- Immortal**
- *You'll need a good amount of Sentries to: allow you spend heavy minerals on your Nexus; protect you from early aggression; accumulate energy over time.
- **You could also opt for a second Observer if you wish; it sucks when your observer is in the middle of the map and a cloaked banshee wanders behind your minerals!
Note: This build order is intentionally left rather open-ended, as some people prefer a 9 pylon scout 12 gate, and some people prefer a 13 gate scout; this list caters to both in the later half.
Your Observer should reach the enemy base before your Nexus finishes. If you see no sign of an Expansion, go ahead and cancel your Nexus and add on a 3rd Gateway (note it is also possible to keep your expo and prepare for the aggression accordingly in many circumstances, depending on the type of aggression). If you do see an Expansion being planned you can continue on with whatever path you desire. I suggest going for a setup of 5 Gateways, a Robo and one forge while on two bases (only 3 assimilators need to be taken until you tech farther).
Followup
Followup is going to be very dependent on what the Terran does, as Protoss usually plays the reactionary in PvT.
If you see a lots of Banshees, phoenix are probably going to be needed. If they are going for some sort of allin with a ton of marines, a Colossus should be rushed out to deal with that.
If you see a marine//tank push you're going to need Immortals, Zealots and Sentries. A warp prism with an immortal drop can also help tremendously.
Drawbacks
The only drawback I know of this opening, is that you won't have as good of an economic advantage as a 1 Gate FE if the Terran opts for a fast expand build. I suppose I should also mention that this is a passive reactionary opening and not meant to be aggressive early on.
Key Notes
- Those early Sentries I mentioned earlier are critical. You absolutely should be warping in Sentries if you want this opening to be safe; the force fields along with the early Immortal should make you un-breakable early game.
- I'm popularly dropped with blue flame hellions, so I suggest that two observers be bought unless you scout early Barracks aggression and need a fast Immortal. The two observers is also great, because it sucks when cloaked Banshees are in your base and an observer halfway across the map (or all the way across).
Replays and VODs
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Isn't it generally better to get a stalker after your first zealot? While a sentry is good as you will have high energy on it later, an earlier stalker allows you to do a 1 zeal 1 stalker poke to see what the terran is building at his ramp. Also, if the terran does some 1 marine 1 marauder +- possible scv early pressure its safer to have a stalker out.
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On March 23 2011 08:39 LtLolburger wrote:
Isn't it generally better to get a stalker after your first zealot? While a sentry is good as you will have high energy on it later, an earlier stalker allows you to do a 1 zeal 1 stalker poke to see what the terran is building at his ramp. Also, if the terran does some 1 marine 1 marauder +- possible scv early pressure its safer to have a stalker out.
I've had a lot of people opening with this fast concussive shells thing, and bring an scv or two across the map. You auto-lose your Zealot usually when this happens, and you're getting your observers out anyways so the poke isn't so necessary. I'd say it's a matter of personal preference.
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On March 23 2011 08:39 LtLolburger wrote:
Isn't it generally better to get a stalker after your first zealot? While a sentry is good as you will have high energy on it later, an earlier stalker allows you to do a 1 zeal 1 stalker poke to see what the terran is building at his ramp. Also, if the terran does some 1 marine 1 marauder +- possible scv early pressure its safer to have a stalker out.
I guess it depends. If the terran is passive, it's a good idea to charge up a sentry since he won't attack anyways.
However, if the terran is really aggressive (1 scv 1 marine 2 marauder poke), I think it's a better idea to get the stalker since he'll probably push you back into FFing the ramp where if you went 1 zealot 1 stalker (+ probe against scv) you'll probably be able to push him back and expand easier.
I'd still go for the sentry because you won't be expanding until the observer out, and you can easily scout marauders with probe scouts. You will have a stalker in time to defend against the poke (with chronoboost) anyways, and it's the same thing as zealot stalker sentry except you get to charge up energy longer.
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You could argue that you are going to have to use an FF if you opened zealot sentry and they do a concussive shell push, which means your early sentry was a waste anyway. But I do see both of your points. I think on close spawn positions you should get the stalker, cross map perhaps the sentry.
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This gate-robo-gate-expand style is also a great way to go double forge. You just need to be proactive with your observers and be really good with forcefields since your army will be small.
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On March 23 2011 08:48 LtLolburger wrote:
You could argue that you are going to have to use an FF if you opened zealot sentry and they do a concussive shell push, which means your early sentry was a waste anyway. But I do see both of your points. I think on close spawn positions you should get the stalker, cross map perhaps the sentry.
If you FF and kill a marauder and lose the zealot, that's better than just losing the zealot!
Edit: iirc it's easy to prevent losing the Zealot anyways.
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Bringing 1 probe to fight always seem to always help a lot. They help tank scv damage so the scv can't tank the zealot, and the probe can actually do nice damage to the marine.
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Thanks for the build, used this a few times but never really had a "clear cut" build when approaching it and usually winged most of it.
Have you thought about going 1 gas into obs/expand, you would be heavier zealot stalker but when timed correctly while doing 2 gate-->robo-->expand you have 75 gas when going to construct your observer.
I've used both, if you think you can hold off rushes without the sentry usage i prefer the 1 gas FE, but thats just me personally.
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Thanks for this Cecil!!
As someone still trying to get out of the lower leagues it's nice having a build that lets you learn as you play as opposed to one designed to win outright and puts you at a disadvantage when there's no "next step".
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On March 23 2011 09:12 justinsroy wrote:
Have you thought about going 1 gas into obs/expand, you would be heavier zealot stalker but when timed correctly while doing 2 gate-->robo-->expand you have 75 gas when going to construct your observer.
That sounds a little contradictory. Usually you'd want Stalkers to move around the map and abuse mobility, and or be aggressive. This is more of a passive reactionary opening and it makes more sense to have a defensive advantage and gain sentry energy over time. But, it is a matter of personal preference I'd say.
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I love this build. It's pretty much everyone's standard PvT build for a while now but i don't think it has been written up b4 this. You just feel so safe with tht fast observer while still having a good amount of gateway units and economy. It's also extremely flexible, u can cancel the nexus if they're rushing and even go for a super quick colossus. Plus tht early immortal is so helpful.
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Australia326 Posts
This build is my bread and butter.
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Lovely writeup and great follow up posts.
Curious about your opinion on the variation with the robo before gate. Does the faster robo -> faster obs end up being of any use or is the gate before robo significantly safer?
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On March 23 2011 16:54 Sabu113 wrote:
Lovely writeup and great follow up posts.
Curious about your opinion on the variation with the robo before gate. Does the faster robo -> faster obs end up being of any use or is the gate before robo significantly safer?
The gateway isn't tht much later and honestly the robo b4 gate is extremely safe as long as ur FFs are good. I use to go the 2gates b4 robo but there really isn't any reason for it, thts why most ppl opt for the faster observer.
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Thanks for another great guide. I've been working a bit with the 3 gate aggressive expo, and now I have this to add to my pvt repertoire.
I've noticed that getting a sentry before stalker is problematic, especially with the T employs the oh so popular marauder expand. The first poke they do comes too early when moderate to close distances are involved; the push arrives at your doorstep before your sentry has 2 ff's ready. I think it's safer to opt for stalker first. Just my two cents.
A question. When would you opt for this build over a 3 gate expo or 1 gate fe? Personally, what are the signs that you look for that point you to making this decision?
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I'd strongly advice against getting a sentry after zealot especially since I've seen it increasingly getting punished again on recent streams - by an early reaper! Marauders are a non-issue as you can kill them with the zealot(s). Marauders are actually really bad dps-wise vs zealots when they can't kite.
But a reaper does kill a sentry one vs one and the zealot is just way to slow to get any hits off. Unless you are either lucky or your opponent is stupid you will lose your sentry. And while this won't lose you the game, for me it's always a terrible blow to my mindset, losing a sentry for free this early on.
On the new, larger maps, reaper-scouting is quite popular (at least my custom-game-partners usually did it) - not only can you kill the reaper with a perfectly positioned stalker, but more importantly will this reaper not do any damage.
What I'd like to add is, that if you CONSTANTLY chrono-boost probes from your first nexus...and with constantly I mean each and every chrono-boost spent on probes, then you don't end up far behind a one rax FE (even no-gas) at all. Especially since many terrans cut an scv here and there because they have to set up a defense to just not die to 4-gating. Similar to the one gate FE where you'd cut probes to get more gateways up.
A question. When would you opt for this build over a 3 gate expo or 1 gate fe? Personally, what are the signs that you look for that point you to making this decision?
If you don't mind, I'll answer this quickly. One gate robo into 2 gate or 3 gate robo expo is the most standard, safe build available since it allows you the quickest observer while still playing a macro-game. A 3 gate expo is bad vs 3 rax and not easy to do vs 2 rax expo with early mass-bunkers. Also a 3 gate expo won't put you in a position where you can get the colossus-tech on route early. The 1 gate fe on the other hand is vulnerable to certain timing attacks depending on the position. You could argue whether or not it's possible to hold them in theory, but for me I rather not play tower defense every game vs terran. As a general state of mind you can go 2 gate robo on each and every map in each and every position. On close(r) positions and small(er) maps you can mix in a 3 gate, on larger maps and far away positions you can mix in 1 gate FEs and phoenix-openers (which I personally find quite awsome on the GSL maps).
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You'd do this build over 1 gate fe if you want to be more safe. It's the observer that makes it safe, not so much the 2nd gate.
There's also many variations to this build. Some euros stay on 1 gas for a while and get more zealots/stalkers than sentries. I prefer this because you get out maybe 2-3 sentries before seeing his tech, compared to 5-6 if you went early 2 gas. And sentries suck against some comps while u always want zeal stalker. you can also do the stalker poke for intel (scout with probe first) Also zealot stalker is droppable material if you want to go quick warp prism play.
I am not saying sentries suck. They are my fav unit and I make 8+ if they are going bio
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Great guides coming from you lately. Very clear and to the point without bickering too much about exact details but just laying out the general plan.
This is my favorite build order for the matchup and I think it is the best all-round build order as well. Huge maps favor more greedy builds and really close spawns may favor more aggresive openings but this build can never go really wrong.
I do a small deviation of this build. I don't probe scout at all which allows me to get 2 zealots instead of 1 while the cybercore is building. I chrono my nexus 3 times and then my gateway 2 times to get those zealots out quicker and then I just poke with the zealots, this allows me to determine their position and usually get out some information (depending on if I poke their base or not). There is no real need for the probe scout with this build imo as you don't really get alot of information with it that your zealot scout can't do either. Probes get killed or chased out by the marine very quickly anyway and can only really see if they got gas or not and if they go techlab or not. If they don't get gas you want as many zealots as possible so why not always get an extra zealot?
Stalker or sentry first doesn't matter that much imo. I personally prefer sentry first as well. A sentry with a zealot can actually hold a reaper just fine till the stalker comes out as the reaper has to run from the zealot anyway. If a reaper comes you can always boost the stalker as well and it should be out on time, worst case scenario both the reaper and the sentry die. The marauder/marine poke is also easy to hold with a quick sentry. If anything the quicker stalker is good for anti-scouting as a scv can survive against a sentry while the stalker kills it quickly. Usually they leave your base anyway when the sentry is about to pop or they simply let it die anyways to your sentry.
By the way the observer is almost always in time to scout them AND be back in time to stop banshee harass with this build. You can also simply boost out a 2nd one when you see their tech lab starport.
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this is great for a noobie like me against terran.
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The Artosis build xD.
Haha but in all seriousness, this is definitely the safest opener ever for Protoss. You get all the scouting info you need from that early observer, haven't committed too far down any one tech tree so you are able to transition to what you like AND you get a fast Nexus to give you a strong economic boost. Solid guide  Good stuff as always Cecil!
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Terrible to get a sentry first unless your somehow certain that he isn't going a reaper, to much of a risk of getting your sentry/probes killed a by a reaper by just getting a slightly quicker sentry. Zealot > Stalker > Sentry is better
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On March 23 2011 21:47 Shooks wrote:
Terrible to get a sentry first unless your somehow certain that he isn't going a reaper, to much of a risk of getting your sentry/probes killed a by a reaper by just getting a slightly quicker sentry. Zealot > Stalker > Sentry is better
Lol. A zealot/sentry still gets the stalker in time with chrono-boost, also, a zealot/sentry easily holds down a reaper with forcefields. A sentry also has 5 range compared to the reaper's 4, so he really can't dodge.
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i also would go Zealot-Stalker-Sentry
otherwise you open yourself up for Reaper harass
early Marauders can be stopped with a couple probes and zealot stalker easily
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when i saw the title of this post, i thought "man, i hope this isnt some newbie post - i hope it is one of those amazing build explanations by CecilSunkure, cause this is the build i have been trying to pull off for a while", and it was! thank you so much
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Isnt the first VOD a 3g FE rathen then any robo? :S
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This build isn't entirely safe - it dies to a 3 rax CC ghost push.
I find a safer variation is to go zealot-sentry-second gateway-gas then robo or nexus (the order will depend on spawn locations)
The later second gas allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early which is able to deal with ghosts.
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Does this only work versus terran, or is it viable vs zerg as well?
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Imo this is the worst opening for pvt. Maby its safe but i dont like it. You have late nexus, that you would have to cancel if any rush comes and if terran expands you cant do anything about it.
I prefer either agresive or eco openings, but that is just my opinion
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On March 23 2011 22:52 57 Corvette wrote:
Does this only work versus terran, or is it viable vs zerg as well?
You want 3 gate expo with Zerg because zergs can overwhelm you too much with their units. Meanwhile, Terran has only limited producing structures, so you can usually hold it even with a 1 gate FE.
Yes, as Protoss, the hardest things to hold sometimes are Zerg all-ins.
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On March 23 2011 22:47 Antimage wrote:
This build isn't entirely safe - it dies to a 3 rax CC ghost push.
I find a safer variation is to go zealot-sentry-second gateway-gas then robo or nexus (the order will depend on spawn locations)
The later second gas allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early which is able to deal with ghosts.
Getting the second gas later is very inefficient. It means you are collecting minerals with more then 16 probes quicker so instead of collecting gas at full speed you are collecting a few extra minerals since those 3 extra mineral probes won´t be very efficient..
As for a 3 rax CC ghost push that can be dealt with as well. Since you can easily spot that build you can split your forces preEMPtively so the EMP won't hit too much. With guardian shield and mostly stalkers the build is fairly beatable then.
If they do a 1 base ghost push you can simply cancel the nexus and quick tech to colossi. There is no way they can stop that then.
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Man cecil, you're on a roll! Great work <3
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On March 23 2011 23:09 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 22:47 Antimage wrote:
This build isn't entirely safe - it dies to a 3 rax CC ghost push.
I find a safer variation is to go zealot-sentry-second gateway-gas then robo or nexus (the order will depend on spawn locations)
The later second gas allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early which is able to deal with ghosts. Getting the second gas later is very inefficient. It means you are collecting minerals with more then 16 probes quicker so instead of collecting gas at full speed you are collecting a few extra minerals since those 3 extra mineral probes won´t be very efficient.. As for a 3 rax CC ghost push that can be dealt with as well. Since you can easily spot that build you can split your forces preEMPtively so the EMP won't hit too much. With guardian shield and mostly stalkers the build is fairly beatable then. If they do a 1 base ghost push you can simply cancel the nexus and quick tech to colossi. There is no way they can stop that then.
It's inefficient? The variation with the second gas is justified as I said - "it allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early".
Yes you're collecting fewer minerals with the additional probes for about a minute longer - but it makes a big difference when you're saving 400 for a nexus. The resultant difference is your unit composition. I feel comfortable getting units that do damage instead of sentries that are prone to getting EMP'ed and consequently being next to useless afterward. You can't always say you'll split preemptively - the terran player can manipulate your army movements by poking in and out bating forcefields and then sometimes pull off a money EMP
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So basically: if I want to contain them in their base while I expand, and possibly win the game: I use the 3 gate agressive FE you exhibited in your last guide. And if I want to "play a safer" longer game, where I'm afraid of cloaked banshees, I want to do this build?
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Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations?
1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder?
2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now?
3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings?
4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo?
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Against the Ghost push Antimage, with the new patch change (Ghosts only do 100 energy dmg/emp) Do you think toss might have a better time holding that or is it still going to hard counter this opening?
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On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote:
Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations?
1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder?
2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now?
3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings?
4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo?
Just some thoughts...
1. Against any kind of 1-1-1 all-in I do indeed tech to colossi like crazy. Since I normally go for a 3 gate robo expo (tyler-style), depending on map and intel, I sometimes keep my nexus. Colossi are pivotal though, since the real damage-dealers are always the marines. Even if he has banshees, doesn't matter since you can reinforce with stalkers. But taking out the marines must be nr. 1 priority. Same against tanks, only difference would be that against this I'd get 1 or 2 immortals too.
2. If I did cancel my nexus I set it up again when my 2nd colossus is done. I move out at this exact point in time, since 2 colossi are able to clean up any number of marines he can have at this point in time after a 1-1-1. Although I'm generally quite comfortable against one base pushes with fast colossi, so I usually don't cancel the nexus.
3. Immortal busts work, but are highly dependent on the number of bunkers. Since marines are actually awsome vs immortals, they will die if the bunker-count is too high. I'm currently theory-crafting exactly vs this and my results thus far are, that you are NOT behind much if you constantly chrono-boost probes. And by that I mean chrono-boosting in a way similar to larva-inject of zerg, always chrono-boosting exactly at 25 energy. Terrans usually cut come scvs to get up more raxes and put up ridiculous amounts of bunkers to be safe against immortal-pushs. Again teching straight to colossi usually works ok. Also using double forge works out fine.
4. Definitely safe to keep the expo, although it's really hard to play against this style. I think you are refering to the style Sjow plays vs toss. Usually I use double forge vs this, since it's inevitable to split up your units. He will do many multi-pronged attacks, sometimes using 2 simultaneous medivac-drops, sometimes doing one drop and attacking the front at the same time. Teching straight to colossi is imo really vulnerable against this, mispositioning the colossi only slightly could end up badly.
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On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote:
Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations?
1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder?
2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now?
3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings?
4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo?
For #1 I find that with relatively FE builds against raven all in off 1 base you need quite a few sentries, but to spend a lot of minerals on cannons (3-5) as you tech to colossus. I often do a 3 gate expand and still have time for at least 1 col by the time the push hits (sometimes I have to hold off with FF) But scout the 1 base all in, get colossus and cannons, cut as few probes as possible but make sure you can hold (if you have to pull you won't always to too far ahead, be sure you can pull and still be ahead of his eco if he decides to expand)
For #2 Why cancel expo? The fast robo means you can stop cloaked banshee, and raven all in I talked about a bit. It seems the hardest thing to counter against the 1-1-1 with this hellion drop/play. Since you are low in stalkers and sentries/zealots are a bit slower it can be a problem. I haven't had too much trouble with it unless there's a build I haven't encountered much.
#3 You can scout that with your probe, react accordingly. Just because you're planning a build doesn't mean you have to do that build no matter what. He 1 rax expands, 2 gate robo timing push, 1 gate FE, 1 gate no cyber FE... There are a lot of options when his ability to pressure is so low.
#4 If your expo survives then you win, even if you pull and lose all your expo's probes. Sometimes you can get colossus in time, really depends on how late he moves out. I again recommend cannons if you know he's basically all in, if not sentry, zealot, probe pull can handle it with really good FF and GS, it's tough but if you learn all the timings of different MM or MMM pushes off 1 base you can usually cut probes at the right time and react accordingly.
Sorry these are kind of rushed and I'd like some replays for them maybe but I got to get to class soon 
Oh and thanks CecilSunkure for all these topics you're making, very good builds and well thought out :D
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On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote:
Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations?
1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder?
2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now?
3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings?
4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo?
I use this build all the time. High diamond, mostly because my mechanics are crap.
1. I personally think zealot sentry immortal takes care of almost all of those scenarios. Especially now that stim timing is different. I find you need at least a few stalkers though to help discourage kiting if your FF aren't perfect.
2. I typically don't cancel my expo unless I see 3 rax, maybe that's not ideal, but it seems to work out more often than not. Either way you should have great information about what he is doing and you can always cut probes and try to power out more units if you think he's pushing. You should have a decent econ lead if you were good with your probes early on.
3. I agree, you don't have a great way to punish T for doing a 1 Rax FE FE with this build. I'm actually hoping someone comments further on this. Possibly a 5 gate timing push with an immortal thrown in?
4. I believe you can hold this off, again knowing what they are doing allows you to be flexible about what you are doing and adapt.
Most of the time when I lose using this build it's because I didn't scout/react well, or I get caught with a drop, or my macro slipped for some reason ( *cough* pylon block *cough* ).
Besides that, I have the opposite problem when i don't do this build. The lack of information causes me to do something that's not particularly effective against what T is doing.
Having said that I'm experimenting with more aggressive builds to try and mix it up, so I definitely think you should have both types of openings in your bag of tricks.
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Will deffinetly use this. Current patch has made HT worthless so I'll stick with my immortals/gatewayunits/colossus.
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I don't use this build much because it's a little too middle-of-the-road for my taste, but according to Artosis, if you see the beginning of a marine+raven+???? push, you can go 1-base colossus and just kill them every time. I don't know if it's true tho.
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On March 24 2011 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I don't use this build much because it's a little too middle-of-the-road for my taste, but according to Artosis, if you see the beginning of a marine+raven+???? push, you can go 1-base colossus and just kill them every time. I don't know if it's true tho.
Idk, Raven + Marine can snipe obs and usually that composition is accompanied with Banshees and/or Tanks. If you can snipe an observer, you can clean up everything with the banshees. I disagree with Artosis' statement that Colossus rush beats it.
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On March 24 2011 00:49 Lobber wrote:
Against the Ghost push Antimage, with the new patch change (Ghosts only do 100 energy dmg/emp) Do you think toss might have a better time holding that or is it still going to hard counter this opening?
Although I usually don't like to theorycraft and would rather rely on having played it out a lot, I would agree with this. I don't think 3 rax CC bio/ghost type openings are going to be good at all anymore. They were already bad and relied on hitting perfect EMPs, and now that even perfect EMPs can't prevent force fields, it seems like they'll be basically an autoloss against a player who is macroing well.
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On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote:
Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations?
1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder?
2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now?
3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings?
4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo?
I wanted to answer these because my answer varies a bit from the answers already given:
1. I always rush phoenix out straight away when I see this. Phoenixes are amazing for stopping any banshee/raven/tank pushes and also counter banshee harass nicely, if they expand they also harass themselves pretty well and the phoenix are never useless if you use them to transition into phoenix + colossi later. Using colossi is also possible but is a worse answer imo:
- colossus tech is slower and more expensive so a bit harder to get out in time. Banshee's are also quite good for sniping colossi actually, especially since your stalker fire will be completely negated by PDD at first.
- colossus tech only allows your robo to make colossi, stargate tech actually means you can make immortals and phoenix at the same time so you can cut 1 gateway. Saving some money against a 1 base timing push is always helpful.
- phoenix tech is much more versatile then colossus tech against a tech lab starport. Colossi aren't as good vs marauder + banshee + raven pushes or tank heavy pushes. With phoenix you can't go wrong as anything coming from the starport and factory is a good target for your phoenix. The only exception here are thors but you'll be making immortals as well so that won't be a problem (the terrible mobility of immortals is no longer an issue if you have phoenix).
If he is switching to some sort of mech or banshee + thor play you can simply transition into voidray/carrier quite quickly whereas colossus tech would be pretty much dead against that.
- phoenixes provide scouting while your observers come back home to defend potential cloak harass.
2. Never cancel the expo against a tech build. If you fear losing it you simply don't put any other buildings at your natural. If he does push with mass scv and other units you can always retreat at that moment still and sacrifice that nexus. If he pulled his scv's all over the map for that it was already worth it.
3. Really depends on the distance between your robo and their expansion. Anything but really close makes it practically impossible to pressure their expansion because immortals are so slow. His mostly marine mix will also be quite good against gateway + immortals. Only at something like close spawn metalopolis do I think a immortal bust can be succesful in this scenario, unless of course you proxied the robo.
A good thing you can do if you see them expanding so quickly is to go for quick drops with a warp prism, especially if you are close by air. His no gas expansion means stim (especially in 1.3) and vikings will both be very late so your warp prism can fly around quite freely. Just load up some stalkers and zealots and you can often do good damage in his minerals lines while expanding yourself. A fine trick is even to load up that first sentry in your prism and then drop his main while keeping his marines out by forcefielding his ramp twice. If that succeeds you can really wreck his main.
If he did a inbase expansion and has to fly his OC over you won't actually be that far behind if you just expand after your 2 gate robo. You can gain back some ground by continously boosting your nexi afterwards.
4. Yes, it's safe. The Sjow style is quite hard to beat though if done well and I'm not really sure what the best way to deal with it is yet. Usually I just go colossi still with some more stalkers, using the stalkers to deflect drops and then pushing at 3 colossi but if he drops really well this is tough. Perhaps dual upgrades are indeed better against this. Immortals are almost completely useless against this style though, the fact they can't shoot up and are so slow make them really crap in this scenario.
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On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote:
Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations?
1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder?
2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now?
3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings?
4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo?
1. Against 1-1-1 builds I like to get templar out eventually, since phoenix are only really good if they are light on bio units or went dual port, while feedback+storm can deal with any 1-1-1 variation. So, I either defend with just gateway units+immortals or try to get charge, depending on what their unit composition seems to be. Also if they aren't going tanks it often helps to get a forge+cannons at the front.
2. If you responded by getting colossi, you're just behind if he has siege or a lot of banshees, because you cannot attack into him usually. If you went templar tech you can skimp on units and expand and then take a 3rd pretty early afterward since templar crush 1-1-1 compositions so hard.
3. Depends way too heavily on their followup. Colossi are good if they seem to be really marine heavy and are extremely late on their factory. 1 base immortal busts are really strong if they went for medivacs really quickly and you get there a little before medivacs come out. I tend to avoid 1 basing against T though, since I can't seem to bust through if the T is paranoid enough and builds a ton of bunkers.
4. Yes, just get 1 immortal and then do a 2 base colossus all-in. As long as you force field well against frontal attacks and don't get put behind by drops you will win.
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On March 24 2011 00:14 Anihc wrote:
Thanks for the great guide. I personally don't like this build because it feels too passive and standard for me. There are no big weaknesses to this build but then again it doesn't offer you too many advantages either. Nevertheless, I recognize that it's a very robust build and I've been trying to learn it. I have the most trouble with follow up: what would you guys do in the following situations?
1. Scout 1-1-1 build, looks like some kind of 1 base raven all-in. There are only 1 or 2 banshees without cloak, so I feel phoenix isn't really necessary. In the OP it's briefly mentioned that if a lot of rines, rush to colossus; if rine/tank, go zealot/sentry/immortal. What are other people's thoughts on this? What about against rine/marauder/tank, or just rine/marauder?
2. This is a continuation of question 1. You scout 1-1-1 so you stay on 1 base (cancel your expo), but the attack never comes. Instead as soon as your opponent gets the raven out and chases away your obs, he drops a CC in his base and you don't find out about it until much later. Now he has an expo pretty far ahead of you. What now?
3. Your opponent has gone 1 rax no gas expo. If you just play standard and drop your own expo, you're going to be behind. Is there any way to punish the T for doing so with your fast robo? How good is a 1 base bust with immortals? What about if you just expo as normal, concede the economic advantage to the T, but then use your tech advantage and rush out colossus for a 2 base colossus attack before he gets vikings?
4. You see a 2 rax tech build (usually ends up just being marine/marauder with fast medivac). Is it safe to keep your expo?
For 3, you don't actually have an economic disadvantage. If you see there's no pressure coming, you can skip the immortal and make a really early nexus instead. With no marauder pressure, he's powerless to stop you from expanding off of 3 gateway units.
To react to Terran's builds, I divide their builds into 3 main categories:
1-1-1 raven all-in: use 38 probes and get sentries with either cannons or non-range colossus vs banshee. Only 2 sentries if you poke and see a bunker as anything involving tanks will be impossibly hard to survive against if you have too many sentries.
1-1-1 expand: usually transitions into a biomech midgame. Double forge is extremely strong against this since their units are too diverse to match your upgrades.
bio expand: fast colossus and double forge are both good vs this.
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On March 23 2011 22:47 Antimage wrote:
This build isn't entirely safe - it dies to a 3 rax CC ghost push.
I find a safer variation is to go zealot-sentry-second gateway-gas then robo or nexus (the order will depend on spawn locations)
The later second gas allows you to go heavier zealot/stalker with fewer sentries early which is able to deal with ghosts.
I have had a few people do this to me, and the results were skewed depending on their EMP. The first time I had my immortals and all sentries EMPed. After that, I always had a good spread and tried to force the Terran to engage, rather than vis versa.
Edit: Since there was that ever so awesome EMP patch to both mitigate the effectiveness of Ghost rushes and match the loss of Khaydarin, I'd say (guess) Ghost rushes won't be nearly as good anymore.
On March 23 2011 22:41 s00pr wrote:
Isnt the first VOD a 3g FE rathen then any robo? :S
Yeah it is, sorry. I deleted it.
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Wow I got lots of responses lol. Funny how everyone suggests completely different things. I had thought that this build can take advantage of someone going 1-1-1 or super fast FE but all your answers involve just expanding, so I guess that's not really true. I'm comfortable with the intel I get from probe scouting and poking with a stalker so it looks like I'll just be sticking with 1 gate FE...
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Normally I'll try to open with 1GateStargate in PvT, because Phoenix give you map control and allow you to defend against every non-standard (2 Starport, HelionDrop, ...) the Terran throws at you, but I'll use this build on close positions, 3-Gate Expansion Rushes didn't fit my style well and they seem to be very bad against tank openings (which are common in close spawns). Thank you
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On March 24 2011 01:35 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:49 Lobber wrote:
Against the Ghost push Antimage, with the new patch change (Ghosts only do 100 energy dmg/emp) Do you think toss might have a better time holding that or is it still going to hard counter this opening? Although I usually don't like to theorycraft and would rather rely on having played it out a lot, I would agree with this. I don't think 3 rax CC bio/ghost type openings are going to be good at all anymore. They were already bad and relied on hitting perfect EMPs, and now that even perfect EMPs can't prevent force fields, it seems like they'll be basically an autoloss against a player who is macroing well.
Well I'm thinking a fast ghost timing push where they have the CC about half done when they move out - no sentry should have 150 energy by then. It does have to do with micro, especially when spells like FF and EMP are in play.
I don't play with a game clock but for sure you will have to make adjustments in order to defend against this - whether that is 3rd gate b4 robo, or chrono'ed out units - either way ghost play is dangerous against this opening which is why I highly advise against a focus on sentries, as well-micro'ed stalkers and zealots work well enough.
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One more argument for stalker first before sentry is that with the new stim +30 seconds, there is a smaller chance that your stalker will get caught with concussive and die during the initial poke.
This is a great guide though! One more thing to have in my repertoire vs T (I usually 1 gate FE)
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On March 24 2011 02:53 ensign_lee wrote:
One more argument for stalker first before sentry is that with the new stim +30 seconds, there is a smaller chance that your stalker will get caught with concussive and die during the initial poke.
That makes no sense at all lol.
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The longer stim research time does matter, it makes the 1 gate expand a lot safer. I don't feel I need the super-early blind robo in most cases.
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On March 24 2011 03:13 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 02:53 ensign_lee wrote:
One more argument for stalker first before sentry is that with the new stim +30 seconds, there is a smaller chance that your stalker will get caught with concussive and die during the initial poke. That makes no sense at all lol.
I thinks his reasoning is that terrans usually get concussive after getting stim, which isn't always the case.
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This is a safe build for sure, but I feel like the 1 Gate FE is more superior if you can properly read (without an observer) what the Terran is doing and react accordingly and you get a huge economic boost.
That 1-1-1 banshee raven timing? It hits after your FE has already paid for itself - like 10-11 mins right? - so regardless of unit composition I feel you're maybe even in a better position. It's just a stupidly hard build to defend against.
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I dont like the sentry too much because of the early reaper that usually come with fast expand builds from the terran, but I will give it a try.
EDIT: what i mean is, I usually prefer getting a stalker before the sentry
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I did this earlier today and it worked wonderfully! Scouted banshees, reacted with stalkers, sentry stalker immortal death push for the win. And if that didn't work, I was still a base ahead of him
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Thx Cecil for that BO, i have been trying to incoporate this strat in my PvT for a while and this is surely gonna help a lot 
But their is one thing in particular that i would like your advice for, even if you did brefly mention it in the follow up :
If you see a marine//tank push you're going to need Immortals, Zealots and Sentries. A warp prism with an immortal drop can also help tremendously.
Could you explain a bit more what you would do in that particular situation, because i have been losing to this quite a lot recently, and honestly i just dont know what to do against it, basicly the terran will do a marine/tank/bunker countain , and then he will unseage is tank one by one to gain ground on me slowly. I tried to get lot'S of imortals withs blink stalkers ( Immortals to tank the dmg of the tank and blink to snipe them fast but it didn't work out so well, i still got owned in the end 
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On March 24 2011 04:51 HellRush wrote:Thx Cecil for that BO, i have been trying to incoporate this strat in my PvT for a while and this is surely gonna help a lot But their is one thing in particular that i would like your advice for, even if you did brefly mention it in the follow up : Show nested quote +If you see a marine//tank push you're going to need Immortals, Zealots and Sentries. A warp prism with an immortal drop can also help tremendously. Could you explain a bit more what you would do in that particular situation, because i have been losing to this quite a lot recently, and honestly i just dont know what to do against it, basicly the terran will do a marine/tank/bunker countain , and then he will unseage is tank one by one to gain ground on me slowly. I tried to get lot'S of imortals withs blink stalkers ( Immortals to tank the dmg of the tank and blink to snipe them fast but it didn't work out so well, i still got owned in the end
Yeah watch Genius's game at bottom of OP, perfect example!
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^^
I would like to watch the game, but i don't have the season ticket for Gomtv ... lol
Is there a other good exemple somewhere ? Maybe one of your own replay ? It would be appreciated :D
Or if anyone else know where i could find a other good replay, plz let me know.
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I'll be on the lookout, but I have none atm.
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this is my staple build in pvt. i do almost the same thing but slightly tweaked.
PvT 2 gate robo expand
9 Pylon
13 Gate
15 Gas
16 Pylon
18 Core
18 Gas
20 Warpgate (at about 3:40 as a reference time)
21 Stalker
23 Pylon
24 Sentry
27 Robotics Facility
28 Gate
31 Sentry
32 Pylon
33 Observer (reference time is about 5:40 for starting the obs)
33 Pylon
(Warpgate finishes at about 5:57)
36 Nexus
42 third gate
43ish, scout with obs and react (i.e, keep or cancel nexus)
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On March 24 2011 15:01 da_head wrote:
this is my staple build in pvt. i do almost the same thing but slightly tweaked.
PvT 2 gate robo expand
9 Pylon
13 Gate
15 Gas
16 Pylon
18 Core
18 Gas
20 Warpgate (at about 3:40 as a reference time)
21 Stalker
23 Pylon
24 Sentry
27 Robotics Facility
28 Gate
31 Sentry
32 Pylon
33 Observer (reference time is about 5:40 for starting the obs)
33 Pylon
(Warpgate finishes at about 5:57)
36 Nexus
42 third gate
43ish, scout with obs and react (i.e, keep or cancel nexus)
Could you possibly explain what is tweaked and why? I'm just curious but don't want to decipher this (or the hundreds of other empty posts) build order.
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Ok, i really like this style, the stalker poke on a 1\3 gate expo its good to scout, but the possibilities of a early robotics in PvT are truly awesome.
Everytime i do this build, ive got a semi-complete map control first of 10 minutes. Normally i like to do 3 observers very fast (if the terran expand, obvius). 1on his base or near around, and 2 patrolling on map flaks to prevent any tipe of drop or strange movemements. I feel like a zerg =)
But i wrote cause i got an answer.
Sure we got a robo and we can:
1) Do early observer if the poke\drone scout isnt clear
2) A early immortal if the terran push hard on 7minut.
But there's a third option, and i like to see players like whitera using that in different situations, the prism. Probably an underrated unit and i want to improve the use of it.
I like to see two options with it.
a) Terran expand, he gots 2 bases to defend, and a single zelot drop for base makes him mad.
b) The prism can be used for all teching terrans to burst him, with elevators or really good drops like the old "bulldog".
What are your opinion about the prism? You said this is a "passive reactionary build".
The prism, can change this?
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I used to do this almost exactly, but I had a coaching lesson with ReSpOnSe a few days ago and he said he stopped doing it.
Here are the cons: Terrans the FE, you cant really keep up with them economically
Terrans that send extremely early pressure end up hurting you way too much..
This build is GREAT for the 1 base tech pushes. Basically an auto win vs banshees or ravens or thors.
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On March 24 2011 15:05 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 15:01 da_head wrote:
this is my staple build in pvt. i do almost the same thing but slightly tweaked.
PvT 2 gate robo expand
9 Pylon
13 Gate
15 Gas
16 Pylon
18 Core
18 Gas
20 Warpgate (at about 3:40 as a reference time)
21 Stalker
23 Pylon
24 Sentry
27 Robotics Facility
28 Gate
31 Sentry
32 Pylon
33 Observer (reference time is about 5:40 for starting the obs)
33 Pylon
(Warpgate finishes at about 5:57)
36 Nexus
42 third gate
43ish, scout with obs and react (i.e, keep or cancel nexus)
Could you possibly explain what is tweaked and why? I'm just curious but don't want to decipher this (or the hundreds of other empty posts) build order.
i think this is genius' build. iirc, it's simply a little more sentry heavy then ur typical 2 gate robo expand (allowing you to get your buildings out earlier or something).
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I've been seeing Minigun (or maybe it was Grubby) do something very similar on his stream. I've been using this a lot with above 50% success. I'll upload some replays once I get it down a little better
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Thank you very much CecilSunkure I really appreciate these guides
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On March 23 2011 21:51 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:47 Shooks wrote:
Terrible to get a sentry first unless your somehow certain that he isn't going a reaper, to much of a risk of getting your sentry/probes killed a by a reaper by just getting a slightly quicker sentry. Zealot > Stalker > Sentry is better Lol. A zealot/sentry still gets the stalker in time with chrono-boost, also, a zealot/sentry easily holds down a reaper with forcefields. A sentry also has 5 range compared to the reaper's 4, so he really can't dodge.
...If he doesn't go straight to your base it will. Otherwise, no it can hit before stalker
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Hi Cecil, I've been getting hit with a marine/tank/banshee composition (after FE) with using this build. What unit composition would recommend in going up against this?
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Choosing the stalker over the sentry early on is really a personal stylistic preference. I find that the stalker is more useful at that stage of the game as I can have a bit of map control and prevent scouting (from scvs/reapers). I also like to do the zealot/stalker poke to make sure they aren't doing anything super greedy, like building the CC on low ground with almost no units.
I think sentry first is better if you scout no gas since you can build up energy to FF your ramp in case of an all-in or have an extra FF for 3-gate aggression against 1-rax FE, and there is no fear of reapers.
Great build for ladder as it prevents many all-ins from working and it isn't that far behind in terms of standard play, especially on bigger maps.
Also, getting more observers is really really good as it helps to shut down drop play. 25/75 for each base you have is way cheaper than leaving a few stalkers or zealots or cannons since you will most likely lose a few to the drop (Select runs around with drops sniping sentries/stalkers).
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On April 04 2011 20:36 ZXRP wrote:
Hi Cecil, I've been getting hit with a marine/tank/banshee composition (after FE) with using this build. What unit composition would recommend in going up against this?
I played a game last night where a guy went marine tank banshee. I did a 3 gate expand, and I think I was aggressive enough to make him think I was doing a 4 gate allin. After I expanded I placed a cannon in each mineral line and copied TT1. After that I had I believe 5 gateways and a forge. I got +1 armor while defending from about 6 banshees, killing almost all of them. Since the banshees did so little damage, I expanded again. I then just made a lot of stalkers and zealots, and kept ramming them at the enemy. As one of my mining bases started to mine out I'd expand again (to stay on three mining bases), and I kept the Terran from ever expanding.
Later on I got blink, charge, and a DT.
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Hey there. I'm a lowly bronze noob who had no idea what I was doing in the game.
After using this build after two games, I'm able to completely see what the opponent is trying to do, and has helped a lot.
Although I still fail :p I lost both games to a marine/tank rush and then the second to a mutalisk rush. Both things I saw coming, wrong answers to them. Gotta learn the counter units. Your completely right about these learning moments! I could easily just say, learn the 4 gate rush and just kill all the bronze players. But this build allows me to actually learn the game, counters and all.
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On April 05 2011 02:05 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 20:36 ZXRP wrote:
Hi Cecil, I've been getting hit with a marine/tank/banshee composition (after FE) with using this build. What unit composition would recommend in going up against this? I played a game last night where a guy went marine tank banshee. I did a 3 gate expand, and I think I was aggressive enough to make him think I was doing a 4 gate allin. After I expanded I placed a cannon in each mineral line and copied TT1. After that I had I believe 5 gateways and a forge. I got +1 armor while defending from about 6 banshees, killing almost all of them. Since the banshees did so little damage, I expanded again. I then just made a lot of stalkers and zealots, and kept ramming them at the enemy. As one of my mining bases started to mine out I'd expand again (to stay on three mining bases), and I kept the Terran from ever expanding. Later on I got blink, charge, and a DT.
Hi, thanks for the reply. I will try and incorporate harassment a little more. While I was theorycrafting, it seemed to me that a standard Colossus/Phoenix army would work really well against the composition I mentioned. I'm assuming of course that an equilibrium is reached at some point in the game where both players mass up their respective death balls.
In your game, you exploited his error too incisively for the game to ever reach this equilibrium point :-)
Anyways, thanks for creating awesome threads like this one!
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Hihi!
Currently doing your 'How to improve efficiently @ Starcraft 2'thingie.
But I can't find a replay of this build...Both links dont work for me.
Do you/does anyone have a replay where a good player does this build?
Thx in adv.
SanMaya
Edit: Whoops, sry... read just now this question has already been asked. Still lookin though
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Just gave this a whirl. The fast observer works quite nicely. Scouted mass marines and steam rolled with 3 colossi, bout 10 zeals and 3 observers.
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NASL Week Four D1: Rainbow vs KiWiKaKi
http://www.justin.tv/naslseasonone/b/285215102
KiWiKaKi tries to do the 2 Gate Fast Obs FE every game in this best of 3.
In every game, he did not scout until very late (~20-25 supply) and it cost him. In the 1st and 3rd games he lost to Marine/SCV all-in.
The 2nd game was a good example of what this build can do as the game progresses to mid/late game.
TLDR: As Cecil notes, make sure you scout when doing this build or you will die to all-ins.
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This was really awesome in two ladder games I just tried it in. It feels so, so safe and crisp. Huge props for sharing this (I would've kept it to myself... :D)
I just had a couple quick questions / comments:
1. If I scout 2 Port Banshees and my Nexus is down, what can I do? It didn't happen in either of my ladder games, but AFAIK you cannot beat 2 Port off of less than Three Gates fulltime.
2. I feel as if you can cut the second Gateway. I tried to do it twice and it didn't seem to feel any less safe. There aren't really any standard pushes you won't be able to hold in my experience, and the Observer still allows you to scout all-ins. Your/ Anyone's opinion?
Thanks again for the /share! <3
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On May 06 2011 11:02 bonerificus wrote:
1. If I scout 2 Port Banshees and my Nexus is down, what can I do? It didn't happen in either of my ladder games, but AFAIK you cannot beat 2 Port off of less than Three Gates fulltime.
Did you catch the Starports building or were they already finished? Anyways, 2 Starports off 1 base is an all-in, so you should place down more gateways (2-3) and a stargate for chronoed phoenixes.
He will most likely all-in at around 10 minutes, and your expansion started around 6 minutes, giving you plenty of time to bulk up.
On May 06 2011 11:02 bonerificus wrote:
2. I feel as if you can cut the second Gateway. I tried to do it twice and it didn't seem to feel any less safe. There aren't really any standard pushes you won't be able to hold in my experience, and the Observer still allows you to scout all-ins. Your/ Anyone's opinion?
MM pushes are actually quite strong vs 1 gate robo because you only have 1 gateway to make units, and you have to chrono out that immortal.
If he brings SCV's you're screwed because you don't have that extra 2 units needed to win.
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I'd say this build order is out of date. Getting a robo and two gateways before Nexus is going to put you behind if you play against an FE from the Terran. Also, two base Colossus gets dominated by an early third from the Terran.
Your best bet is 3 Gate aggro --> delay [enemy] expansion, or 1/2 Gate expo. iirc the standard time to fear banshees is 7 minutes 30 seconds (have detection in the form of cannon or observer just about that time).
Edit: At lower levels this build should be perfectly fine, but higher on the ladder people start taking advantage of things detailed in this post and thusly this build will get you out-macroed.
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Hey cecil, I just saw your most recent reply and I must say it has me a little bit confused.
Currently this build is great because a lot of my opponent try to all in me so I can scout that, cancel my nexus, and then hold off the all-in and win the game.
However I fear that if I did a 1/2 gate expo then there would be no way for me to know that I was being all-in's (vs terran in particular, I can detect zerg all-ins easily because of expo timings and mining gas).
What do you think? Should I stick to this build and Liquid tyler's double forge build for PvT? or try out a 1/2 gate expo and risk getting all-in'd?
Thanks.
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On May 07 2011 13:02 Perplex wrote:
Hey cecil, I just saw your most recent reply and I must say it has me a little bit confused.
Currently this build is great because a lot of my opponent try to all in me so I can scout that, cancel my nexus, and then hold off the all-in and win the game.
However I fear that if I did a 1/2 gate expo then there would be no way for me to know that I was being all-in's (vs terran in particular, I can detect zerg all-ins easily because of expo timings and mining gas).
What do you think? Should I stick to this build and Liquid tyler's double forge build for PvT? or try out a 1/2 gate expo and risk getting all-in'd?
Thanks.
If you're winning with it, then keep using it!
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I'm starting to use this build less and less. While it was standard two months ago, i think pressure into expansions and greedier builds have more utility right now. It's still the safest PvT build tho and i use it when i know i'm better than the person I'm playing. You just end up behind against a terran FE and can't put any real pressure on.
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The main problem I'm finding with fast robo builds in PvT is that
a) Your expansion is slower than a Terran FE
b) you're teching, so you don't have the army to put on any pressure to balance out a slower expansion
This is where things like 3gate expansion and 1gate expansion builds come in. 3gate expand has a slightly slower expand than a 1rax or 2rax FE build, but you have a strong army and are able to put on pressure because you're not teching until post-expansion.
And a 1gate expansion gets the expansion before the robo and extra infrastructure, so your expansion keeps up or is ahead of the Terran.
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I've always thought expanding after a robo is bad, personally. Dhalphir made some pretty good points, but I also want to say that I've had a lot of trouble holding 2 rax pressure or 3 rax pressure on some maps when going 2gate observer, especially back after the beta last year. The terran finds an opportunity to enclose you in your base with marauder/marine while taking their own expansion, and then you're pretty much behind the whole game. It might be possible in some positions to break out, but any map that has a tiny walk distance makes a fast observer build dangerous, IMO.
edit: yeah to the guy below i think poking with the first zealot on slag or in close positions metal/shattered is a must actually, since marauder slow is never going to be done
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I suggest poking with the first zealot. 1st there is absolutely no reason for it to stay home. It cant chase down scv anyway. 2nd many terrans dont wall and zealot often causes some havock mainly allowing to scout past the ramp and retreat. 3rd It is a great response to 1 rax fe with cc right on the nat. 4th the chances to lose the zealot are pretty low. Usually I only lose it to a fast reaper trading it to scouting info. The reaper is also then sacrificed for scouting so we end up even.
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I just wanted to let you know that I recorded myself performing this build in YABOT and uploaded the result to sc2builds. I did the 13 gate scout variation for this recording and I credited you. I am by no means a good player however so if any of these numbers don't look quite right to you let me know. I can only do so much with 140apm after all.
http://www.sc2builds.com/build-info.aspx?id=1627
And while I agree with you that this build is out of date as far as competitive play is concerned, it is still an excellent build for those who are interested in bettering their play to learn. I was reading your guide on improving and I quite liked what this build has to offer to silver-diamond league players for increasing their skill levels. This is why I decided to upload the build to sc2builds.
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Does this build favor any particular maps? I just tried it on Scrap Station and I got owned by the Terran, rushed with a couple of Marines and Marauders all rallied to my base. Maybe the choke on Scrap is too wide? Makes FF a little weak.
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On June 25 2011 01:37 bigbigmac wrote:
Does this build favor any particular maps? I just tried it on Scrap Station and I got owned by the Terran, rushed with a couple of Marines and Marauders all rallied to my base. Maybe the choke on Scrap is too wide? Makes FF a little weak.
Bad macro lost you the game
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this build still owns 1-1-1 openings hard. so if you just happen to scout bunker, odd number marines, or 2 gas. DO THIS BUILD!
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Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?
Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.
Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?
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On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?
Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.
Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?
I use 2gateFE and it holds all of those all-ins just fine. Of course I'm not saying it's easy to hold the 1/1/1 in general, I'm just saying 2gate FE gets your nexus up early enough that it would start to pay for itself before such an all-in hits.
I really don't see 3rax breaking 2gate FE, but there are many variants of 3rax so please link a replay.
2Gate Robo is fine, it just gets the Nexus down later.
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On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?
Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.
Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?
I used to use the 2 gate robo every PvT but I only do it once in a while now. I don't like the idea of changing your build just because of the metagame. A good build should be able to handle any other build with minor adaptations.
It's like PvP where you have sort of build order gambles that can give you a decent advantage or disadvantage depending on what your opponent is doing. I don't like that idea and am really trying to make 1 gate fast expand work.
I guess maybe you could try to be flexible and determine what build you're doing based on your map, spawn positions, and early scouting.
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On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?
Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.
Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?
I'm definitely leaning more towards this build. Terrans just seem to love doing 1 base all-ins nowadays. Even if they FE, it seems like a well-timed 2 immortal sentry push can punish the natural with good forcefields.
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On August 19 2011 03:15 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?
Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.
Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?
I use 2gateFE and it holds all of those all-ins just fine. Of course I'm not saying it's easy to hold the 1/1/1 in general, I'm just saying 2gate FE gets your nexus up early enough that it would start to pay for itself before such an all-in hits. I really don't see 3rax breaking 2gate FE, but there are many variants of 3rax so please link a replay. 2Gate Robo is fine, it just gets the Nexus down later.
Do you go for the Zeal/Sentry/4Stalk poke with it? I find that 3 rax chases me down or even catches my units en route with concussive.
Also, when do you throw down your Robo with your 2 gate FE? I haven't seen any good replays/VODs of a 2 gate holding a 1-1-1; perhaps it's more an issue of my macro/reaction timing than it is the build itself.
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On August 19 2011 03:58 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:15 tuestresfat wrote:On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:
Cecil, there was a time ~June when 1/2 gate FE or 3 Gate were appropriate since gasless expands were very popular, but now that 1-1-1 is getting so popular I feel less and less safe doing 3 Gate Expands in PvT. Are you still using 3 Gate FE more often than this build?
Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.
Anyone else defaulting to 2 Gate Robo more these days?
I use 2gateFE and it holds all of those all-ins just fine. Of course I'm not saying it's easy to hold the 1/1/1 in general, I'm just saying 2gate FE gets your nexus up early enough that it would start to pay for itself before such an all-in hits. I really don't see 3rax breaking 2gate FE, but there are many variants of 3rax so please link a replay. 2Gate Robo is fine, it just gets the Nexus down later. Do you go for the Zeal/Sentry/4Stalk poke with it? I find that 3 rax chases me down or even catches my units en route with concussive. Also, when do you throw down your Robo with your 2 gate FE? I haven't seen any good replays/VODs of a 2 gate holding a 1-1-1; perhaps it's more an issue of my macro/reaction timing than it is the build itself.
I get 2nd gas right after Nexus and my robo during my pressure/contain IF I can not 100% rule out cloak banshees. If it is clear he is not going cloak banshees I will just skip robotics in early game. Usually I just get it ~6:30, a 4stalker/zeal/sentry pressure should be at his natural ~6:10.
You need to be specific about the 3rax. Does he have stim? Does he pull SCVs?
I still struggle quite a bit against 1/1/1, you probably don't want my advice about that. I've tried 3gate aggressive expanding in my recent PvTs with the intent of all-inning them if they are executing the 1/1/1 all in. If I expo, I know it will be too late before my Nexus will start to pay for itself, making the 1/1/1 near impossible to defend. I've had a bit of success with this, not a ton. I think it's great on Xel'naga since you can shut down their expo (if they went for one) pretty effectively, while it's rather hard to get back into a macro game or break them if they expoed on say shakuras.
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I've actually done this build a few times on ladder recently just to try it out. I've found that most of the time it's only worth it if you are planning on hitting a strong timing with 2 fast Colossi, but if you get those Colossi out and do nothing with them you quickly fall behind in eco.
Conclusion: Good build for maps with short rush distances or close pos.
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Italy12246 Posts
I've always wondered when and if a fast robo build like this can be aggressive. The biggest reason why people started doing 3gate rather than 2gate obs was because the nexus timings were almost identical, but with 3gate you can almost outright kill a terran in certain situations.
That said, has anyone tried going aggressive with 1-3 immortals and 1-3 gateways worth of stuff while expanding, as opposed to having just gateway units?
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On August 19 2011 03:05 Snaphoo wrote:Also, watching ZeNexPuzzle roll a Terran 5 times a row yesterday (Marine-Tank, 1-1-1 w/ Raven, 3 Rax, Marine-Tank-Banshee, Marine-Tank) with this build on ladder has made me really want to use this build more, as my 2 gate FE just keeps getting slaughtered by these types of 1 base all-ins from T.
How exactly did he win against these builds? Was it the high Immortal count that made the difference? Or did he even go for ultrafast Colossus?
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On September 20 2011 07:54 Teoita wrote:
I've always wondered when and if a fast robo build like this can be aggressive. The biggest reason why people started doing 3gate rather than 2gate obs was because the nexus timings were almost identical, but with 3gate you can almost outright kill a terran in certain situations.
That said, has anyone tried going aggressive with 1-3 immortals and 1-3 gateways worth of stuff while expanding, as opposed to having just gateway units?
You're ganna get dropped to death if you try that, so if you do it better be before the Medivac timing can punish you for being out of position.
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How is this build holding up currently? It seems like a solid build to me, but I haven't played SC2 actively in awhile and even been sort of off on my spectating since I've been busy (did attend MLG Providence though, woo!) so I'm not really sure where the meta is at.
I'm looking for a safe build that would be good for me to practice and get back into the game. Something that can help me deal with some early pressure without too much micro required but isn't so safe that I'm going to fall behind in most games eco-wise. I'm willing to trade a bit of economy for that safety though, obviously. I just don't want to trade a whole lot. This build seems like it should be able to do that?
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Well, this builds working fine for me in Platinum league. PvTs my best matchup. I can hold off early pressure relatively well as long as I don't get greedy. I'm not sure if this will still work at masters+ though.
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Well, if I reach Master+ I should be working with a number of builds and making my own. Just need something to practice that will be solid in the lower leagues. I think this should be good. I just wanted to be sure there wasn't something I'm missing. Thank you, Dujek.
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I have no idea why i havent seen 14 gate in competetive play... even though it doesn't make too much of a difference in gold - master play but when you start getting to ultra specifics that seems likes something that would give you an edge. Terran can't put on any super early pressure (such as a 6 pool) and you dont need your wg out as fast as, say, pvp, so i dont see any reason not to do it...
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On November 25 2011 05:58 RaKooNs wrote:
I have no idea why i havent seen 14 gate in competetive play... even though it doesn't make too much of a difference in gold - master play but when you start getting to ultra specifics that seems likes something that would give you an edge. Terran can't put on any super early pressure (such as a 6 pool) and you dont need your wg out as fast as, say, pvp, so i dont see any reason not to do it...
Hard to hold 2 rax pressure with 14 gate since your warpgate will be ready so much later.
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On November 25 2011 05:58 RaKooNs wrote:
I have no idea why i havent seen 14 gate in competetive play... even though it doesn't make too much of a difference in gold - master play but when you start getting to ultra specifics that seems likes something that would give you an edge. Terran can't put on any super early pressure (such as a 6 pool) and you dont need your wg out as fast as, say, pvp, so i dont see any reason not to do it...
14 gate just means that you scouted with your pylon probe. It's less common now because protoss players realize they likely won't be guaranteed valuable enough information to justify scouting so early, so you see 12 gates and 13 gates based on preference. pylon scout 14gate also gets you a much later cyber core which delays your first stalker poke as well as your WG research. It's pretty much been phased out for those reasons.
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This build fucking sucks
User was temp banned for this post.
User was forum banned for this post.
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On November 25 2011 05:58 RaKooNs wrote:
I have no idea why i havent seen 14 gate in competetive play... even though it doesn't make too much of a difference in gold - master play but when you start getting to ultra specifics that seems likes something that would give you an edge. Terran can't put on any super early pressure (such as a 6 pool) and you dont need your wg out as fast as, say, pvp, so i dont see any reason not to do it...
To elaborate on Alejandrisha's post if you gateway scout and optimize your mineral patches you can 13 gate (in fact it's almost a 12 gate) without probe cutting so there is never a reason to 14 gate if you gateway scout.
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Idd, zero reason to ever 14 gate even on maps like shattered and tal darim which have less efficiently spaced mineral patches, you can probe stack to get a 13 gate with constant chrono and probe production after pylon
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On November 25 2011 08:22 decerto wrote:
Idd, zero reason to ever 14 gate even on maps like shattered and tal darim which have less efficiently spaced mineral patches, you can probe stack to get a 13 gate with constant chrono and probe production after pylon
TDA's patches actually don't bother me too much. For some reason, shattered, antigua and those 2 new cavern maps that I haven't bothered to remember the names of give me a lot of trouble mining-wise to hit the exact timings I want and easily get on more traditional 4-close patch maps like xel naga and metal. Scrap station was actually a dream for mining, though a terrible map ^^
I wouldn't say this influences when you get your gate, though. If pro players take this into account and I just don't know that, then that is very interesting.
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On November 25 2011 09:24 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 08:22 decerto wrote:
Idd, zero reason to ever 14 gate even on maps like shattered and tal darim which have less efficiently spaced mineral patches, you can probe stack to get a 13 gate with constant chrono and probe production after pylon TDA's patches actually don't bother me too much. For some reason, shattered, antigua and those 2 new cavern maps that I haven't bothered to remember the names of give me a lot of trouble mining-wise to hit the exact timings I want and easily get on more traditional 4-close patch maps like xel naga and metal. Scrap station was actually a dream for mining, though a terrible map ^^ I wouldn't say this influences when you get your gate, though. If pro players take this into account and I just don't know that, then that is very interesting.
Ye I doubt it does, I was just saying there is zero point in 14gate if you can mineral stack well, the only pros I've ever seen do 14 is TT1 and kiwi on taldarim/shattered etc 2-3 mlgs ago and I don't think they do it any more. I wish there was just a standardised mineral setup like xel/metals one for all maps as it makes quite a difference for builds like that 11gate into 3gate pressure
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I'm really falling in love with this build and I'm starting to use this in close to 100% of my PvTs whereas I was 100% 1 gate FE. The early observer is great for holding the 2 most common types of mid game timings; stim marine marauder dashes up your ramp and 1-1-1.
If you see him loading up for a 3 rax stim timing make sure you keep the obs with his bio so you don't get surprised as he stims into your army before you can GS and FF. This build is terrific against against the 1-1-1 because you can focus on saturnine your expo until he's ready to pressure. Then you just follow his tanks with the obs and force sieges when possible. As he's preparing to to take up residence outside your natural I'd split an immortal and about 1/3 of your gateway army out on the map to pick off reinforcements. Once youre comfortable breaking his siege you can hit him from both sides and crush him pretty easily. Then you're in a great spot. You can hold any desperation all in, take a third and outmacro him or counter and kill him. I've noticed when I start cutting off the reinforcements the T will either take his many army and kill your crew out there (at which point you walk your main army out and kill him) or expand with 3ish bunkers and tanks on the high ground in the main (all 1-1-1able maps have high ground in range of the nat). A warp prism carrying your immortals can ruin those tanks in hilarious fashion if you control it well.
Very safe opening and puts you in good shape for the mid game. Plus it gives you quick access to a warp prism which is super fun and effective if they try to take too much of the map.
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United States154 Posts
What the hell is a "forum ban?" haven't seen that yet.
Muchas gracias Cecil, will definitely be using this.
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On November 25 2011 13:16 Attilanator wrote:
What the hell is a "forum ban?" haven't seen that yet.
Muchas gracias Cecil, will definitely be using this.
methinks it is specifically for the strategy forum. we're kind of a big deal now amirite
edit: yes i enjoy giving my boy cecil free bumps :p
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Thank you Cecil for a great and specific build order. Still a bronze player and (obviously) a new member of teamliquid.net This will give me something concrete to practice. Again, Thanks!
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Thanks for the awesome thread I will practice it against a med ai a lot before playing my first placement match.
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high platinum eu toss here, should be diamond next few days, just wondering is this build still effective?
ive had about 6-8 months out of sc2 and was high diamond before i had the break so im still trying to get back into it, so im just working on my mechanics atm and need a build thats good on all maps against all posible openings. Atm in pvt ive been using the old(?) 3 gate pressure into expo/robo/all in depending on what i see and what happens and sometimes i get a bit close with the wg finishing and getting the round of units in before his units hit my ramp. Im just wondering with 2 gates will it be safe enough? or on the 1v1 maps and that new 4 player map where the horizontal positions are stupidly close, will it be ok then?
thanks, ima try it anyway, just curious weather or not people are using it now and getting away with it
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Thank you. I've been looking for a safe PvT opening.
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I'm at your level and this build still works, I can hold off almost all early pressure and platinum 1-1-1s with it and take almost every game into a macro game.
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In the OP Cecil says he likes to get a 2nd Obs as he regularly gets dropped by blue flame hellions. How to use both Obs in this scenario? I get it for cloak banshee but not for drops. You put a 2nd Obs to the side of your base to spot?
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On January 26 2012 00:31 Acidfiend wrote:
In the OP Cecil says he likes to get a 2nd Obs as he regularly gets dropped by blue flame hellions. How to use both Obs in this scenario? I get it for cloak banshee but not for drops. You put a 2nd Obs to the side of your base to spot?
If you're gonna use observers to spot drops and any type of enemy movement, you generally place them in the middle of the common drop routes. Or you can leave them close to one of the exits of the enemy base.
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On January 13 2012 06:21 ThatGuy89 wrote:
high platinum eu toss here, should be diamond next few days, just wondering is this build still effective?
This build will not reliably hold many variations of the 1-1-1. I tried for a long time to make a similar build work against them, but a 1 base Protoss opening like this loses to 1-1-1 more often than not.
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On January 26 2012 01:01 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:21 ThatGuy89 wrote:
high platinum eu toss here, should be diamond next few days, just wondering is this build still effective?
This build will not reliably hold many variations of the 1-1-1. I tried for a long time to make a similar build work against them, but a 1 base Protoss opening like this loses to 1-1-1 more often than not.
I agree with the fact that you cannot hold a 1-1-1 without incredibly good micro with this if you decide to keep the nex. If he is going 1-1-1 however, I would recommend just canceling the nexus, throwing down a robo bay and another gate and just make sure to keep your stalkers alive to defend the banshees. This should allow you to hold the 1-1-1 fine, and you can always lay down a nexus if he is doing a macro 1-1-1 (though his unit composition gets significantly weaker as the game moves forward.
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On January 26 2012 01:07 NoMicroWin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 13 2012 06:21 ThatGuy89 wrote:
high platinum eu toss here, should be diamond next few days, just wondering is this build still effective?
This build will not reliably hold many variations of the 1-1-1. I tried for a long time to make a similar build work against them, but a 1 base Protoss opening like this loses to 1-1-1 more often than not. I agree with the fact that you cannot hold a 1-1-1 without incredibly good micro with this if you decide to keep the nex. If he is going 1-1-1 however, I would recommend just canceling the nexus, throwing down a robo bay and another gate and just make sure to keep your stalkers alive to defend the banshees. This should allow you to hold the 1-1-1 fine, and you can always lay down a nexus if he is doing a macro 1-1-1 (though his unit composition gets significantly weaker as the game moves forward.
If you cancel the Nexus, and go into 1 base Protoss, you'll still likely lose. The Terran can float their Orbital down when they need to expand and you're left long distance mining. Furthermore, they can use Banshees to harass your mineral line and keep you in your base (or you risk dividing you army, and it is often easier for Banshees, a flying unit to rejoin their army than it is for Stalkers, which leaves your main force without a lot of anti-air). Puma has shown this over and over. If you choose to try and defend Banshees by warping in Stalkers, you're cutting into precious gas that you need for Colossus. So you're left in your base on one base, and just to expand you have to attack into a defended position that includes Bunkers and Siege Tanks. And Terran can just sit there and when the mains run out, they float down, and you're forced to attack.
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Thanks for the guide, found it helpful.
I find it's hard to hold an early 3-4 rax stim timing + expansion with this build. As in, I usually lose my nexus if I don't cancel it, and then tend to get behind. I find this build works perfectly against almost anything else though.
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On January 26 2012 01:07 NoMicroWin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 01:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 13 2012 06:21 ThatGuy89 wrote:
high platinum eu toss here, should be diamond next few days, just wondering is this build still effective?
This build will not reliably hold many variations of the 1-1-1. I tried for a long time to make a similar build work against them, but a 1 base Protoss opening like this loses to 1-1-1 more often than not. I agree with the fact that you cannot hold a 1-1-1 without incredibly good micro with this if you decide to keep the nex. If he is going 1-1-1 however, I would recommend just canceling the nexus, throwing down a robo bay and another gate and just make sure to keep your stalkers alive to defend the banshees. This should allow you to hold the 1-1-1 fine, and you can always lay down a nexus if he is doing a macro 1-1-1 (though his unit composition gets significantly weaker as the game moves forward.
Yea this is definitely the right response to the 111 scout after this opening. I think too often 2gRobo players attempt to keep their Nexus, do not tech to collossi, etc = loss typically.
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I regularly hold 1-1-1 all in's with an opening very similar to this. I stole my opening from Liquid`Tyler, who opens a very similar way in most of his PvT's. A few key differences on the way Tyler 2 gate robo's, first of all he opens zealot/sentry/zealot/sentry, throws down the nexus (usually as the observer is building) and then warps in 2 more sentries, then sentry zealot, which changes the makeup of your build quite a bit. He also typically forgoes the immortal and gets a second observer.
This means you cannot rely on a Stalker scout, meaning you have to glean as much information from your scouting probe as you possibly can until your observer gets to the terran's base.
If you scout 1-1-1, you can choose to defend it with either immortals or collosus, it depends on which variation your opponent is going for. The most important thing is trying to figure out when your opponent is going to push, so you can cut probes and chrono all your gateways in order to get more units.
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On January 26 2012 02:20 Sceptre wrote:
I regularly hold 1-1-1 all in's with an opening very similar to this. I stole my opening from Liquid`Tyler, who opens a very similar way in most of his PvT's. A few key differences on the way Tyler 2 gate robo's, first of all he opens zealot/sentry/zealot/sentry, throws down the nexus (usually as the observer is building) and then warps in 2 more sentries, then sentry zealot, which changes the makeup of your build quite a bit. He also typically forgoes the immortal and gets a second observer.
This means you cannot rely on a Stalker scout, meaning you have to glean as much information from your scouting probe as you possibly can until your observer gets to the terran's base.
If you scout 1-1-1, you can choose to defend it with either immortals or collosus, it depends on which variation your opponent is going for. The most important thing is trying to figure out when your opponent is going to push, so you can cut probes and chrono all your gateways in order to get more units.
Do you have any replays from your own play or Tyler? I'd love to open safely like this and hold the 1-1-1.
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I'm not at home at the moment but I will pull some up when I get home. Most of my analysis of Tyler's play comes from watching his VOD's, so I might have to do some detective work to find some.
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I just wanted to say thanks to Cecil for the build. I'm a total noob and have just decided to ladder again. This will be my only PvT build I ever do (until I have it perfect). Played my first placement match of the season today and it happened to be vs Terran on Entombed Valley. Around 34 food I had enough $ for nexus which I started. My probe didn't see an expo so I cancelled it and threw down a forge, preparing for Banshees. My obs hit his base and I think he was waiting for siege before expanding (I think he's even worse than me). So I place the nexus down again. Tried not to prematurely end the game like I have in the past and invoked someone else's wisdom "when ahead, get more ahead." Got plenty of Immortals and more Gates before finally pushing with 2-1 and blink. Feels so much better to have a rough plan rather than 4 gate all in every game where I never learnt to think on my feet. Good luck to all the other beginner Protoss out there!
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On February 22 2012 22:47 Acidfiend wrote:
I just wanted to say thanks to Cecil for the build. I'm a total noob and have just decided to ladder again. This will be my only PvT build I ever do (until I have it perfect). Played my first placement match of the season today and it happened to be vs Terran on Entombed Valley. Around 34 food I had enough $ for nexus which I started. My probe didn't see an expo so I cancelled it and threw down a forge, preparing for Banshees. My obs hit his base and I think he was waiting for siege before expanding (I think he's even worse than me). So I place the nexus down again. Tried not to prematurely end the game like I have in the past and invoked someone else's wisdom "when ahead, get more ahead." Got plenty of Immortals and more Gates before finally pushing with 2-1 and blink. Feels so much better to have a rough plan rather than 4 gate all in every game where I never learnt to think on my feet. Good luck to all the other beginner Protoss out there!
Glad to hear that you are playing again, but frankly i think this build is so outdated to be actually bad in most cases. It is still truely safe against anything, but most play is so greedy that this will put you behind against most builds.
Personally, i would check out protoss strategy on liquipedia, and steal a 1 gate expand build. The huk build still works up to low master (i still use it a lot), and it is really fun as it can put pressure back on the terran, but otherwise i would opt for one of the other 1 gate expand builds, as they can be equally safe and not put you behind against anything other than a CC first.
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On February 22 2012 23:35 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 22:47 Acidfiend wrote:
I just wanted to say thanks to Cecil for the build. I'm a total noob and have just decided to ladder again. This will be my only PvT build I ever do (until I have it perfect). Played my first placement match of the season today and it happened to be vs Terran on Entombed Valley. Around 34 food I had enough $ for nexus which I started. My probe didn't see an expo so I cancelled it and threw down a forge, preparing for Banshees. My obs hit his base and I think he was waiting for siege before expanding (I think he's even worse than me). So I place the nexus down again. Tried not to prematurely end the game like I have in the past and invoked someone else's wisdom "when ahead, get more ahead." Got plenty of Immortals and more Gates before finally pushing with 2-1 and blink. Feels so much better to have a rough plan rather than 4 gate all in every game where I never learnt to think on my feet. Good luck to all the other beginner Protoss out there! Glad to hear that you are playing again, but frankly i think this build is so outdated to be actually bad in most cases. It is still truely safe against anything, but most play is so greedy that this will put you behind against most builds. Personally, i would check out protoss strategy on liquipedia, and steal a 1 gate expand build. The huk build still works up to low master (i still use it a lot), and it is really fun as it can put pressure back on the terran, but otherwise i would opt for one of the other 1 gate expand builds, as they can be equally safe and not put you behind against anything other than a CC first.
I've seen a handful of streamers do this build over the last two months, including VileYong. Also, note Puzzle's use of the same basic build here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309028
I do not think the build is outdated. Rather, it should be used aggressively. I'm only diamond but in using this build, I can hold off a lot of Terran early rine shenanigans (1 rax FE into 4 rax rine) and I can hold off any FE into bio pushes. But more importantly, with 2 immortals (some prefer 3) and 7 sentries with stalker warp-ins at the T natural, you can bust bunkers and often cause the T to life their natural CC. In the process, you are constantly producing (even chronoing probes) and I often come out with an eco-edge.
I use a similar build because I was tired of sitting in my base chronoing out double forge ups and fending off stim attacks/2 medi attacks. I felt gimped and bored. Using this build, I get to be the aggressor and I get to practice my force field micro on the offensive rather than on the defensive.
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74 Posts
IMO, this BO is not outdated, but is a diamond level and below thread. I think this build can be used successfully as an opener at these levels and below. However, at high master / GM level, if you open like this every PVT, you will have a bunch of BO losses to greedy builds. I open like this only when I sniff 111.
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im confused, is this build good against 111 all in or is this bad against it? people seem to saying different things
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Italy12246 Posts
There are different schools of thought. Generally, 1gate fe is better if you play it well.
On the one hand, your econ is way worse than with 1gate fe, so you will have less units when the push hits.
However, you will get to see exactly what 111 variation is doing, and you will be able to react accordingly, so it's easier to take less damage against a 111 that goes hellion drop or cloak first for example.
All in all, i think it might be ok vs 111 builds that try to kill probes before pushing, but worse against straight up marine/tank/banshee trying to kill you as fast as possible. I might be wrong though.
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On March 02 2012 02:23 dionjcejd wrote:
im confused, is this build good against 111 all in or is this bad against it? people seem to saying different things
The build is worse than a 1-gate FE vs 1/1/1 since your later expo means less of an eco advantage when the 1/1/1 hits. If I opened gate-robo-gate and scouted a 1-basing terran I would actually not expand and 1-base myself until I scouted what my opponent was doing. A 1-base gate-robo-gate build should be able to hold a 1/1/1 pretty well if played correctly.
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I do the exact same build but instead of going heavy sentry which costs a lot of gas and tech, I will stick to zealot/stalker and get faster colossus, still being able to hold the pushes.
It's personal ofcourse, but that's the way I like it.
On March 02 2012 02:35 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 02:23 dionjcejd wrote:
im confused, is this build good against 111 all in or is this bad against it? people seem to saying different things The build is worse than a 1-gate FE vs 1/1/1 since your later expo means less of an eco advantage when the 1/1/1 hits. If I opened gate-robo-gate and scouted a 1-basing terran I would actually not expand and 1-base myself until I scouted what my opponent was doing. A 1-base gate-robo-gate build should be able to hold a 1/1/1 pretty well if played correctly.
It hols 1-1-1 pretty easily and you can still expand quit fast. It's only very weak if the Terran decides to get a expand instead of going to tech. Like Terran's like to do lately just getting their gas running until you are not able to scout and they just expand.
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EPT
