EPTThe state of the Hydralisk in ZvP - Page 5
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MrJargon
United Kingdom158 Posts
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entropius
United States1046 Posts
On February 27 2011 01:32 MrJargon wrote: Choose your location to battle, 99% of raging zerg players moan about colossus because they attack at stupid locations and dont do anything (or very little) to counter them. Uninformed at best, troll at worst. The best that good positioning can do is to get all of your units fighting at once; due to superior range all of the protoss army (barring zealots) will be engaged. You simply cannot engage a protoss ball with anything resembling cost efficiency; if you have a far bigger force you can overwhelm it, or suicide corruptors to kill the colossi and then fight it, but if that is not the case then the only way to play once they get a handful of colossi is to play a skirmish style involving backdoor ling attacks, etc., and pray that you have enough APM and that they are sloppy enough for it to work. | ||
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Undrass
Norway381 Posts
Why does no one build banelings? They are extremely good for taking down balls, such as the P "death" ball. they are even better when the P have a high number of zealots. A mix of lings and blings + some hydras in support can easily take down early- to mid-game pushes. Later in 200/200 battles, just mix in 3-5 ultralisks. they are simply amazing in a mix of blings and lings. Even more important they take down the fircefields, so you can just roll in with the blings and crush everything. | ||
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STALLONEZONE
Ireland115 Posts
On February 26 2011 16:58 entropius wrote: They do a lot of damage, but not /that/ much. Let's calculate damage per resource for some units: Drone: 0.067 DPS/$, range 0 Hydralisk: 0.096 DPS/$, range 6 Zergling: 0.29 DPS/$, range 0 Roach: 0.11 DPS/$, range 4 Marine: 0.14 DPS/$, range 5 Stimrine: 0.20 DPS/$, range 5 Thor: 0.0938 DPS/$, range 7 Hydralisks actually deal *less* damage for their cost than roaches. Both of them deal far less damage for their cost than zerglings, but zerglings are a melee unit; they both deal less damage than stimrines. Hydras even deal less damage for their cost than Thors, and at less range. This is the dumbest way to think. You build hydras so that they can be in range where roaches wouldn't be. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On February 26 2011 16:58 entropius wrote: Drone: 0.067 DPS/$, range 0 Hydralisk: 0.096 DPS/$, range 6 Zergling: 0.29 DPS/$, range 0 Roach: 0.11 DPS/$, range 4 Marine: 0.14 DPS/$, range 5 Stimrine: 0.20 DPS/$, range 5 Thor: 0.0938 DPS/$, range 7 i would suggest you trying to compare that to Stalkers, + Show Spoiler + and then start to laugh when you realize how pathetic stalkers are for their cost. and how worse it gets when you count upgrades too | ||
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entropius
United States1046 Posts
On February 27 2011 02:34 STALLONEZONE wrote: This is the dumbest way to think. You build hydras so that they can be in range where roaches wouldn't be. Congratulations for not reading the thread. Yes, hydras are useful because of their range. But I was responding to a poster who claimed that hydras do "zomg so much dps!", and simply citing statistics that show that they really don't. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On February 27 2011 01:32 MrJargon wrote: Choose your location to battle, 99% of raging zerg players moan about colossus because they attack at stupid locations and dont do anything (or very little) to counter them. thats quite funny - where would you choose your attack location on scrap station? | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
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Farmerz
39 Posts
I'm not quite sure what this thread is all about, since you just talk a bit about hydras and zvp in general. Do you have a specific question or complain? Because I do not quite get this at all | ||
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entropius
United States1046 Posts
On February 27 2011 02:44 freetgy wrote: i would suggest you trying to compare that to Stalkers, and then start to laugh when you realize how pathetic stalkers are for their cost. and how worse it gets when you count upgrades too I intentionally didn't include protoss units in the comparison, since all protoss units have less dps and more health (except for cololsi); it's an overall characteristic of the race. Yes, stalkers are not terribly efficient. A useful quantity to calculate for all units is the geometric mean of dps and durability divided by cost; if you have any background in mathematics or modeling you can convince yourself easily that this is the right thing to look at to get a leading-order estimate of cost effectiveness. Note that I am not claiming that this is the end-all be-all of unit efficiency; for instance, it doesn't consider unit range or speed. This quantity, for some common ranged units. Gas is considered on parity with minerals. Results are normalized such that the value for an unstimmed unupgraded marine is unity. Stalker: 0.55 Stalker, vs. armored: 0.66 Immortal, engaging roaches (hardened shield included): 0.92 Marine, with stim and shield: 1.22 (!) Thor: 0.82 Roach: 1.18 Hydralisk: 0.64 Again, though -- you cannot use these results without considering other factors. This implies that you have to spend almost twice as much on stalkers to achieve parity with a roach army, but this neglects the speed and range advantage of the stalkers, which when combined with forcefield is devastating. What it does mean is that stalkers are not so good unless other factors conspire to make them better. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
If you are going to contemplate the entire scenario (and you should) you need to compare production methods. Everything zerg does has to be seen through the prism of the way their unit production works. It makes it really hard to use numbers like this to actually come up with a good idea of what is actually going to be effective. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On February 27 2011 03:36 entropius wrote: Stalker: 0.55 Stalker, vs. armored: 0.66 Immortal, engaging roaches (hardened shield included): 0.92 Marine, with stim and shield: 1.22 (!) Thor: 0.82 Roach: 1.18 Hydralisk: 0.64 Which shows us that Stalkers unupgraded can barely keepup with Hydras Now Count in Attackupgrades: 0,7 DPS for Stalkers 1,2 DPS for Hydras consider Defense upgrades: Stalkers->only half hp benefits Hydras -> all hp benefits and this doesn't count in that Roaches can tank alot of damage. Mass Roach / Hydra stomp through anything except Colossus in Midgame. Any Change HP or DPS wise to Hydras will brake this Balance compared to Stalkers even more. | ||
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Zedromas
Canada112 Posts
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Zedromas
Canada112 Posts
On February 27 2011 01:32 MrJargon wrote: Choose your location to battle, 99% of raging zerg players moan about colossus because they attack at stupid locations and dont do anything (or very little) to counter them. ahahaha....where do you engage something with twice the range of your longest ranged unit?? Go back to your cave. | ||
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dark fury
Sweden426 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On February 27 2011 03:29 telfire wrote: Immortals FORCE Hydras. There is no choice but to go Hydras. You will lose with ANYTHING else (unless you grossly out macro or micro the dude). That is the real problem. You have no choice but to get the unit, and then the same exact tech path obliterates it costing Protoss nothing. Mutas will punish the shit out of Immortals. Roaches are actually perfectly fine cost-to-cost against Immortals and move much faster, but perhaps FF makes it untenable. (Of course, that's extra Protoss money spent in Sentries, so you'll have extra $$$ to spend on something else.) On February 27 2011 06:11 Zedromas wrote: ahahaha....where do you engage something with twice the range of your longest ranged unit?? Go back to your cave. Out in the open. A number of the maps don't actually contain any open spaces, in which case the complaint is more legitimate. But the counter to long ranged splash has always been to surround, which in turn requires you to engage when the opponent is out into the open. Ever played BW against a mech Terran? If the map allows a longer-ranged player to move from defensible position to defensible position without passing through any open space, that's kind of a stupid map, and you'll have to rely heavily on drop/air/nydus/burrow-move. (But presumably the map is good for those if it's that cluttered, so you may still be OK.) | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
1. As a Protoss player, I must choose my tech wisely. So as such, I sometimes fear a Hydra tech switch. A lot of people got it right here - gateway+immortals demolishes roaches. The time to get Hydras is not to mix it in, but to counter what your opponent creates (i.e., void rays). Do not think of the Hydra as a standalone unit like the Roach, and do not think of a single Protoss unit as a lonesome menace. Protoss is about synergy between units. Sure, Roaches > Stalkers cost for cost, but that is not the usefulness of Stalkers. Also, Hydras > Stalkers, so please get that right too. To all those who don't think this, do you ever see a Protoss mass Stalkers against a Hydra//Roach or pure Hydra army? 0_0 2. Hydras have their place in the game. Currently, a super fast Hydra Den can wreck a Protoss player if they're not ready for it. If I'm in a PvZ and I'm fighting a mass Roach army, then I would be completely foolish to go Immortals. If I did, an immediate tech switch to Hydras would be the end of me. Hydras force Temps or Collosus in the same way that Marines do, so be greatful of this. Collosus are incredibly fragile units that can be picked off with a simple misclick. Personally, I do not like Collosus for this very reason. Roach//Hydra//Corruptor does superbly well cost for cost with a Stalker//Collosus army. 3. Don't complain about force fields. A Protoss player cannot support tech production AND Sentry production; this means that the sentries in a "Protoss Death Ball" are 90% of the time a) from the beginning of the game and b) not going to be replenished. If you can't feight and force force fields then you are greatly misunderstanding the matchup. And once you kill them they're probably not coming back. There's a reason you don't see lategame sentries - they're too gas expensive for little DPS and health. 4. Hydras are damn good units. If I go Immortals, blink Stalkers, or air, I fear Hydras. If I go Collosus or Temps, I fear Roaches. Don't misunderestimate this unit, for I have won many PvZs because the Zerg player was foolish enough to not get a Hydra Den. Take it for what it's worth; Zerg is the best race at tech switching and Protoss is the worst race at responding to tech switches. Abuse that fact next time you face a "Protoss Death Ball" | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On February 26 2011 18:03 Viperbird wrote: Was bored and did some tests in the unit tester... 20 hydras vs 20 stalkers, they come out dead even, sometimes 1 stalker left, sometimes 1 hydra left. ( 0 updgrades, off creep, hydra range upgrade for even range on both units) Then just for the heck of it put 150 of each against each other, same results, 2 stalkers left over. Stalkers have 2x the total HP and Hydras have 2x the dps. Also hydras dont do bonus damage whereas stalkers do more to armored. Sure stalkers do cost more than hydras, but only 25 minerals more, not a lot. Usually gas is the limiting factor. I think perhaps we are misusing the word "counter" here. Wow it is just so hard to explain to people there are more factors than just cost. Here ill put them into list so you can understand better: 1. on any regular map, there is no open space like unit tester. Hydras are smaller, more fit in a certain area thus can shoot more at once so it has that advantage of higher dps 2. Zerg is always should be ahead on bases, if toss is trading at even mineral/gas toss will lose. You are talking about a senerio which toss is trading at -25 minerals which is LoLs to toss 3. Zerg can mass hydras in a game a lot easier than toss. Hatchery/larva inject can outproduce warpgate very easily. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
hydras are ok imo, roaches for sure too but the true problem are the sentries in early stages that deny any decent pressure and allow the protoss to get their deathball and keep casualties very low | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
All in all, I wish they had more efficacy, but I do believe that they're a necessity unless your opp is overproducing colossus/templar. Good post. | ||
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