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On February 26 2011 14:04 dark fury wrote:
Also, in the next patch fungal growth will deal 30% more damage against air units (void ray stalker colossus) which will make this composition even more reasonable to deal with.
+30% vs Armored- better against Colossus/Void Ray, but no change against pheonixes.
But fungal won't kill a colossus- not only do they not get snared, but Colossus gets a shot off on the infestor when it comes into range to hit the colossus with fungal.
47 damage a pop to kill a 250 combined health Void Ray or 350 combined health Colossus. . .?
Fungal is actually being nerfed for this matchup, in my opinion. 4 second reduction in snare time, means if you have broodlords, the blink stalkers will be under them that much faster. You ahve less time to get your units into that better flank, Especially if you're flanking with queens/hydras. If you snare phoenixes, you have 4 seconds less time to kill them with your corruptors as well.
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The only problem with the Hydralisk is the attack animation is practically invisible so nobody realises how much damage they're doing.
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On February 26 2011 16:31 STALLONEZONE wrote:
The only problem with the Hydralisk is the attack animation is practically invisible so nobody realises how much damage they're doing.
They do a lot of damage, but not /that/ much. Let's calculate damage per resource for some units:
Drone: 0.067 DPS/$, range 0
Hydralisk: 0.096 DPS/$, range 6
Zergling: 0.29 DPS/$, range 0
Roach: 0.11 DPS/$, range 4
Marine: 0.14 DPS/$, range 5
Stimrine: 0.20 DPS/$, range 5
Thor: 0.0938 DPS/$, range 7
Hydralisks actually deal *less* damage for their cost than roaches. Both of them deal far less damage for their cost than zerglings, but zerglings are a melee unit; they both deal less damage than stimrines.
Hydras even deal less damage for their cost than Thors, and at less range.
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On February 26 2011 16:25 Keifru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 14:04 dark fury wrote:
Also, in the next patch fungal growth will deal 30% more damage against air units (void ray stalker colossus) which will make this composition even more reasonable to deal with. +30% vs Armored- better against Colossus/Void Ray, but no change against pheonixes. But fungal won't kill a colossus- not only do they not get snared, but Colossus gets a shot off on the infestor when it comes into range to hit the colossus with fungal. 47 damage a pop to kill a 250 combined health Void Ray or 350 combined health Colossus. . .? Fungal is actually being nerfed for this matchup, in my opinion. 4 second reduction in snare time, means if you have broodlords, the blink stalkers will be under them that much faster. You ahve less time to get your units into that better flank, Especially if you're flanking with queens/hydras. If you snare phoenixes, you have 4 seconds less time to kill them with your corruptors as well.
Collosi can be snared by fungal. Only the ultralisk is immune to snares and stuns.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2011 16:58 entropius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 16:31 STALLONEZONE wrote:
The only problem with the Hydralisk is the attack animation is practically invisible so nobody realises how much damage they're doing. They do a lot of damage, but not /that/ much. Let's calculate damage per resource for some units: Drone: 0.067 DPS/$, range 0 Hydralisk: 0.096 DPS/$, range 6 Zergling: 0.29 DPS/$, range 0 Roach: 0.11 DPS/$, range 4 Marine: 0.14 DPS/$, range 5 Stimrine: 0.20 DPS/$, range 5 Thor: 0.0938 DPS/$, range 7 Hydralisks actually deal *less* damage for their cost than roaches. Both of them deal far less damage for their cost than zerglings, but zerglings are a melee unit; they both deal less damage than stimrines. Hydras even deal less damage for their cost than Thors, and at less range.
Most of which is negated by the fact that typically, zerg has a lot more resources to deal with issues, because they are designed to expand more rapidly and more frequently than the other races, and to be able to build up workers faster.
Making cost comparisons between races isn't particularly useful. Comparing costs between the same race can be useful, but different units have different function. Also, when you've got a capped army, DPS/cost is probably the last thing you want to be worried about, you want DPS/supply.
It's a solid idea... but it'd break ZvZ sooooo badly.
There are easy ways to fix that, like making it so hydras aren't light anymore, just biological, so they won't die to banelings as easily. Hell, based on the freaking size of a hydralisk (much much bigger than a marauder) I have no idea why they are light to begin with. They're frakkin' huge.
The roach is honestly the weird unit, it has a ton of hp, good armor, decent damage and really low cost, it sounds like something you should need or want to tech too. I can easily see bumping the hydralisk down to 75/25, roach up to 100/50 and just reversing the tech tree positions. Nerf the hydralisk slightly (10-12 damage per shot, 60 hp?) and make them hatch tech like they were in broodwar. Solve a lot of problems instantly.
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give hydras 110 hp / replace range upgrade with speed off creep
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Primary advantage of the Zerg is the ability to create swarms out of nowhere. Bases cost 100 min less (well, 100 minus a drone,) so it's pretty easy to expand quickly. On top of that, hatches are the only way to produce units, and you can produce literal swarms with Inject Larvae, fa5r faster than Toss can do with Warp Gate or tech buildings, and faster than Terran can with reactors. It's not the initial size, not the size of this army that'll count, it'll be the size of the army after that, and the one after that, and the one after that. You get good enough macro, you can just chip pieces out of the enemy, split up his army, attack and deny expos... The power of the ungenerated swarm at your fingertips.
Anywho, Hydras are pretty decent vs gateway, Zealots w/o Charge, stalkers w/o Blink, and Sentries in general. One or two plus an observer can mop up DT's fast.
They are decent units, but they do need something more. Siege range once Tier Three would be awesome, as Zerg really only has the hard-to get Brood Lords for ground siege range.
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On February 26 2011 12:42 Pwnographics wrote:
I think hydralisks need around 115 HP but that's just me.
yep just a masochist would want so low hp
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hydralisk is a pretty cute unit in ZvP. Z start off with roaches in the early game, then switch to hydras in mid game, then switch back to roaches in the late game....
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United States7483 Posts
Now that I think of it, bringing back the movement speed upgrade for the hydralisk would also be an excellent fix for the unit.
It's pretty terrible that there are so few significant unit changing upgrades for zerg and protoss, while terran has tons of them.
It's probably my biggest complaint about the game balance right now. Terran has so many ways to modify units to make a big change in their effectiveness, toss and zerg don't.
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I don't see how hyrdras counter gateway units. 1 stalker vs. 1 hydra they both kill each other, +u need a upgrade for hydras to have equal range as stalkers, not to mention they are higher tech. Hydras are basically good for parking in the mineral line and thats about it. What if they had a spell similar to the mechanics of guardian shield or PDD, where it reduced the incoming damage a little? Or would this be OP?
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On February 26 2011 17:12 Viperbird wrote:
I don't see how hyrdras counter gateway units. 1 stalker vs. 1 hydra they both kill each other, +u need a upgrade for hydras to have equal range as stalkers, not to mention they are higher tech. Hydras are basically good for parking in the mineral line and thats about it. What if they had a spell similar to the mechanics of guardian shield or PDD, where it reduced the incoming damage a little? Or would this be OP?
From this I know you don't play the game at all or are even in any reasonable league(Im jsut gonna assume you are silver/bronze)
First of all hydra hard counters pretty much all non-aoe units of toss. Why is it? Because it has high dps. Remember a zerg is never supposed to fight cost effectively versus the other two race because the zerg is ahead on base. So if a stalker just trade for a hydra(this is not even trading evenly as stalkers cost more), toss will fall very behind. Also zerg can produce units much faster than toss.
Gateway/immortal are decent against roaches until upgrades kick in. Stalker will do about the same damage as roaches when both are fully upgraded but is only half the cost. Zealots will be a joke versus max upgraded roach for obvious reasons.
I think the key in beating a toss is building enough corruptors so that you kill the colossuses and weaken their gateway support units. Then just remake zerg army and crush the reminder of toss's gateway. Colossus can not be reinforced as it takes forever to build and is actually very slow(same speed as hydra off creep). The balance is of course is to know how many corruptors to make against their colossus.
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On February 26 2011 12:35 Valcio wrote:
Roaches in huge numbers are bad exactly because of the range, with no other unit to help in the 10 ish minute battles you will get plummed, the right forcefields will eliminate you quickly.
Also you need hydras because of the fact a protoss will get about 4 to 5 voids to aid the fight, and corruptors are their favorite food.
Hydras need a health buff, back to 90 would be nice.
Not so. In late game, some protoss will opt to not have any sentries (to have a pure stalker / collo army). Either way, if you press your roaches against the protoss army, your units become much more cost effective.
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I was simply saying that they dont COUNTER gateway units. Sure they kill them, but its not like I made 20 hydras he had 20 stalkers lololol I got 14 hydras left after the battle. Where as collosus do counter hydras in that sense.Thanks for assuming people are in bronze, always a nice thing to do.
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On February 26 2011 17:33 Viperbird wrote:
I was simply saying that they dont COUNTER gateway units. Sure they kill them, but its not like I made 20 hydras he had 20 stalkers lololol I got 14 hydras left after the battle. Where as collosus do counter hydras in that sense.Thanks for assuming people are in bronze, always a nice thing to do.
They do counter. They are actually pretty much the hardcounter. You want to play online. Ill make all hydra, you can make all stalkers and we can see how many are left.
20 stalkers versus 20 hydras. In the end there will be like 5-6 hydras left probably. And that is huge since 20 stalkers cost way more and if you don't think hydras's counter stalker then I think you just need to play more games.
Also you didnt fact in size which matter a lot in any fight. You can fit a lot more hydra in the same amount of surface area because they are smaller means you are actually applying more dps. So please at least learn the game before trying to say something like "hydras don't counter stalker" It is the same as "marauders don't counter stalkers because if I make 20 fight 20, I wouldn't have 14 marauders left herp derp"
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Hydras are not a hard counter to gateway units. They are reasonably strong against them, and with good positioning they will be cost-efficient and win. However, if the protoss has a slightly larger army, or slightly better positioning (remember, hydras are slow as shit), it'll be even or the protoss will win.
Yes, if I see someone making pure gateway, or gateway plus immortal, I will try to get roach/hydra and push his face in. But I'll also be sacrificing an ovie every minute and making a spire, because I'll have to make a ton of air as soon as I see a colossus, because colossi really are a hard counter to hydras, in a way that hydras are not a hard counter to gateway.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2011 17:40 entropius wrote:
Hydras are not a hard counter to gateway units. They are reasonably strong against them, and with good positioning they will be cost-efficient and win. However, if the protoss has a slightly larger army, or slightly better positioning (remember, hydras are slow as shit), it'll be even or the protoss will win.
Yes, if I see someone making pure gateway, or gateway plus immortal, I will try to get roach/hydra and push his face in. But I'll also be sacrificing an ovie every minute and making a spire, because I'll have to make a ton of air as soon as I see a colossus, because colossi really are a hard counter to hydras, in a way that hydras are not a hard counter to gateway.
We're splitting hairs. In large numbers, hydralisks straight up demolish gateway armies with no problem, even with forcefields.
In smaller numbers gateway units do okay, but not well. Hydras still win.
And what the hell is a 'hard' counter anyway? A unit that you get to stomp the everloving shit out of another unit with no difficulty? I wasn't aware such a relationship existed between units.
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There is no way in hell gateway can be cost effective. Hydras has around twice the dps and cost a lot less. The only harder counter to stalkers is probably stimmed maraduer. If zergs won't even admit hydra counters gateway, is there really anyway to discuss.
Hard counter to me means if you see them making a certain unit, you make the hard counter and will win. Which is pretty much the case with hydra vs non-aoe toss and maraduers against stalekrs. Hard counter vs counter is like the same to me. As long as you can fight cost effectively then it is a counter.
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Hard counter is sort of subjective, but it essentially means that if I make a significant number of X, your Y is ineffective enough that you'd better stop making them unless you have a way to make all the X irrelevant. Infestors are a hard counter to bio without tanks. Mutas are a hard counter to banshees. Colossi (with some gateway stuff around) are a hard counter to lings and hydras. Corruptors are a hard counter to BC's.
@xbankx: Comparing DPS is a little disingenuous, since hydras also have half the health of gateway units. It's been established already that hydras are good against gateway units. The point is that while they are good against pure gateway they aren't *so* good that your gateway stuff becomes irrelevant. A good question to ask is "How much more does the gateway player have to spend to be competitive?" It's probably around 15-20% depending on positioning, which is not *that* big of an advantage, especially since hydras have the disadvantage that they are slow as shit on heroin.
In a vacuum this would be fine, since you'd just make hydra against gateway and leverage this small advantage into a win. Again, the problem is that you don't get the chance to do this. Suppose P makes gateway stuff and you make hydra to deal with his gateway stuff. Fine; after a while you can turn the better efficiency of hydra into a win.
Then he makes colossus and walks all over you.
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Wait, you act as if mass roach will fry gateway/collo. Yes, but only if forcefield decides to stop existing. Lets look at your advice to make roaches work.
1) Attack in the right positions -- Not chokes! Hi forcefield makes chokes. Burrow? No problem, 1 observer, and the protoss army is doing DPS faster then the roaches can heal, and the roaches arnt doing DPS anyways.
2) Attack from different directions -- make the protoss army split up! Hi, forcefield walls off roaches and all of a sudden you are just fighting small groups at different times instead of all at once.
Then, you forget that other build becoming even more common, void / collo. Yea those roaches handle that well. Those corruptors can't beat both voidrays and collos. If you target the voidrays first, collos don't die fast enough to matter. If you target the collos first, then they have voidrays left and well....your roach army doesn't fight air too well.
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EPT
